OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

[benhur]

Point is noted and respected my friend. Any particular Protestant faith community you belong to? Just asking.

Thank you…similar to an Assembly of God church. independent now from them

 

[benhur]

True. Every word you said is true, one can lose salvation but the answer is not WHY bother to do anything but pray, but you must bother to pray and attend services, and confess your sin, because by his death on the cross, Christ gave power to Priests through Holy Orders to forgive sins.

And why bother with unspiritual formalities? Which the answer to that is one should not. And because we choose these unspiritual formalities we put ourself of loosing our salvation.

Hi rinnie,

by “unspiritual formalities” I meant something that is not praying or fasting or “confirming election” , such as playing baseball, or watching a football game, or other secular activities.

Blessings

 

[James248]

God bless Gabriel and every readers of the CAF.

Do you believe Gabriel, or any Catholic brother or sister, is it a possibility that a member of the Bride of Christ, predestined to heaven can lose his or her salvation and end up in hell?

God bless Gabriel and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Do you believe a reprobate never experienced salvation? Because that’s what the OSAS’ers believe.

 

[Nicea325]

Thank you…similar to an Assembly of God church. independent now from them

So your faith community was at one time part of the Assembly of God church? Not to be rude, but why the separation?

 

[LatinRight]

Do you believe a reprobate never experienced salvation? Because that’s what the OSAS’ers believe.

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Good question. **
To tell the truth, I use to believe; a reprobate never experienced salvation.

Now I don’t believe God reprobates anyone, Christ is the savior of the whole world and He has redeemed every member of the whole human race and God’s will is that everyone saved and God will save everyone.

It is true, God promised; apart from a few people He will throw every member of the human race to hell.

But God had even worse promise to the more than a hundred and twenty thousand members of Nineveh.

God has promised, 40 days and destroys all of them, didn’t take long time and God changed His mind and saved all of them without exception.

The way God demonstrated His universal Salvation in Nineveh, God will demonstrate His universal Initial Justification/Salvation on the entire human race.

**The teachings of Universal Salvation is not a New teachings, many Church Fathers believed it and taught it.
**

The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church.

Many Catholic Priests teach it, even Archbishop Ladaria SJ. the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith teach it since many years.

In my view, Universal Salvation is the MOST WONDERFUL teachings of the Catholic Church.

**UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF THE HUMAN RACE IS GOD’S RESPONSIBILITY

Why it is God’s responsibility?**

Because if God would refuse to give anyone, His Free Gift of Initial Justification + His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance it would be equal with His positive (random) predestination to hell.

IT IS EASY TO PROVE IT

**THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF AN UN-REGENERATED MAN

Rom.8:6-8;**
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 cor.2:14;
But the natural man does not receives the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Meaning man could do NOTHING, to enter the state of justification.

As we see above the ability of an un-regenerated/carnal man to have initial justification 100 % depends on God and 0 % on himself.

So, it is clear, God has the responsibility for the initial justification of every member of the entire human race. + It is also God’s responsibility to freely give every Initially Justified His Free Gift of Finale Perseverance.

Initial Justification. + God’s Free Gift of Finale Perseverance. = Infallible entrance to Heaven.

The above theological facts are infallible teachings of the Catholic Church!!!

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**An un-regenerated/carnal man neither have a free will to choose God nor he can cooperate with the grace of God to choose God.
**
Spiritual things are foolishness for an un-regenerated/carnal man.

**Someone to choose God, FIRST need free will, need the grace of God, need to be in the state of grace and need to be in Christ first.
**

To choose God is a supernatural decision, to make supernatural merit or to make supernatural decisions a person FIRST need to have initial justification, which is solely the work of God.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

As you see above James.

Until an un-regenerated man is regenerated through initial justification and he is in the state of grace and in Christ, can do NOTHING and accept NOTHING from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.

This means; God is responsible for the Initial Justification of the whole human race and this responsibility DEMANDS Universal Initial Justification and + with the addition of God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which without every Initially Justified, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, would end up in hell.** – Infallible teaching.**

When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man into His service/salvation His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.

John 6:44-45 (NIV)
44. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

If God would refuse to give even one un-regenerated/carnal man His free gift of Initial Justification (make him new creation, etc.), and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, that practically would mean; God created that person for everlasting pains and sufferings in hell. – God would never do this with any human person.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

**According to the above theological facts; **God’s love and justice DEMANDS Universal Initial Justification/Salvation for every member of the entire human race, THERE IS NO WAY OUT.

According to Eph.1:10; Col.1:20; etc. all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.” – Archbishop Ladaria SJ. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[benhur]

Continuation

**An un-regenerated/carnal man neither have a free will to choose God nor he can cooperate with the grace of God to choose God.
**
Spiritual things are foolishness for an un-regenerated/carnal man.

**Someone to choose God, FIRST need free will, need the grace of God, need to be in the state of grace and need to be in Christ first.
**

To choose God is a supernatural decision, to make supernatural merit or to make supernatural decisions a person FIRST need to have initial justification, which is solely the work of God.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

As you see above James.

Until an un-regenerated man is regenerated through initial justification and he is in the state of grace and in Christ, can do NOTHING and accept NOTHING from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.

This means; God is responsible for the Initial Justification of the whole human race and this responsibility DEMANDS Universal Initial Justification and + with the addition of God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which without every Initially Justified, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, would end up in hell.** – Infallible teaching.**

When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man into His service/salvation His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.

John 6:44-45 (NIV)
44. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

If God would refuse to give even one un-regenerated/carnal man His free gift of Initial Justification (make him new creation, etc.), and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, that practically would mean; God created that person for everlasting pains and sufferings in hell. – God would never do this with any human person.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

**According to the above theological facts; **God’s love and justice DEMANDS Universal Initial Justification/Salvation for every member of the entire human race, THERE IS NO WAY OUT.

According to Eph.1:10; Col.1:20; etc. all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.” – Archbishop Ladaria SJ. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

hi lr,

Read the last bit, that every human is eventually saved…do I read you right?

 

[James248]

Continuation

**An un-regenerated/carnal man neither have a free will to choose God nor he can cooperate with the grace of God to choose God.
**
Spiritual things are foolishness for an un-regenerated/carnal man.

**Someone to choose God, FIRST need free will, need the grace of God, need to be in the state of grace and need to be in Christ first.
**

To choose God is a supernatural decision, to make supernatural merit or to make supernatural decisions a person FIRST need to have initial justification, which is solely the work of God.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

As you see above James.

Until an un-regenerated man is regenerated through initial justification and he is in the state of grace and in Christ, can do NOTHING and accept NOTHING from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.

This means; God is responsible for the Initial Justification of the whole human race and this responsibility DEMANDS Universal Initial Justification and + with the addition of God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which without every Initially Justified, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, would end up in hell.** – Infallible teaching.**

When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man into His service/salvation His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. – Furthermore this ABSOLUTE DECREE includes the INFALLIBLE entrance to heaven.

John 6:44-45 (NIV)
44. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

If God would refuse to give even one un-regenerated/carnal man His free gift of Initial Justification (make him new creation, etc.), and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, that practically would mean; God created that person for everlasting pains and sufferings in hell. – God would never do this with any human person.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children always based on God’s initiative.

Matthew 19:25-26;
25. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

1. Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

**According to the above theological facts; **God’s love and justice DEMANDS Universal Initial Justification/Salvation for every member of the entire human race, THERE IS NO WAY OUT.

According to Eph.1:10; Col.1:20; etc. all will be saved in the Apokatastasis or Final Restoration of All Things.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.” – Archbishop Ladaria SJ. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

You maintain all will be saved. Yet many are called and few are chosen.

 

[mackbrislawn]

benhur;14768734

Jesus uses plural “we” believe, that is other Jews in this discourse.

Jesus’ use of plural “we” refers to himself and his disciples.
Nicodemus and the other Pharisees had not yet heard this teaching about being born again from above. Perhaps Jesus and his disciples had been teaching it orally prior to Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus, but this is this the first time it appears in scripture, so it was certainly not a teaching of the Pharisees’.

That could be true, but as a secondary insight of context. Don’t think it is primary context for one simple reason…his entire ministry is to Jews primarily , and Jews are being baptized by John, and later the apostles…so it is first an individual call in this discourse…difficult to see an entire nation as “born again”

My take on it is that Jesus was letting the Jews know (through Nicodemus) that they needed to be born again from above in order to get into the Kingdom of God. (That is, they don’t get into the Kingdom just because they are Jews.) He wasn’t telling Nicodemus about why some people believed and some didn’t. Because according to scripture, people believed because of testimony or because of signs, not because they were already born again.
Then after his discourse with Nicodemus, Jesus and his disciples went and baptized…who did they baptize? Believers, of course. The believers in Jesus were baptized because this is how they became born again.

yes, any believers were born again, either before John the baptist or during his ministry or during the Lord’s ministry.

From my above comment, you can see I don’t agree with this. In my thinking if these people were born again it is because they believed, not before.
But, who do you mean when you say “believers”? I take it you mean believers in Jesus?
And I don’t see how anyone before John the Baptist could be born again, because before John there was no preaching about Jesus! (Possibly some rare individuals were regenerate before Jesus, such as the Virgin Mary, or John himself, for certain purposes.)

Don’t think you can surmise they should have known Godly truths regardless of being born of spirit or born only of flesh. I think what Christ was saying is that you would hope a leader of Israel, a rabbi , would be born of the spirit, but obviously, circumcision and bar mitzvah and a life dedicated to God is not guarantee…all righteous works , or works of law …did not give them a spirit to believe in Jesus.

Of course in my view the possibility of being born of the spirit (baptism in Jesus’ name) was not instituted until Jesus.
But, yes, just because they went through bar mitzvah, circumcision, etc, does not necessarily give them a spirit of belief.

Scripture does not mention of Peter or of the apostles being baptized, nor mention when they became born from above. We do assume they did at some point, which is not told in scripture. And whether or not Peter was carnal when he was informed by the Father that Jesus was the Messiah, we can only form opinions. Is whether a person be carnal or not a precondition for being taught by God?

In my opinion, no.

No , but one thing is taught, and another is “caught”…I mean Nicodemus knew a lot but…I do not think the flesh can believe righteously…the spirit must be regenerated to believe correctly…I take Peter at his word, he believed , and not like Satan believes also, but put his life in Christ…it was all Peter heart ,spirit and mind…not just mental assent or a "false’’ confession.

If Peter made his confession because he was regenerated, this seems to imply that the other apostles who didn’t make that confession were not regenerated, which is an odd inference to draw.

 

[LatinRight]

hi lr,

Read the last bit, that every human is eventually saved…do I read you right?

**God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

Yes you read Archbishop Ladaria SJ. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of faith right.**

At the fulfilment of Acts 3:20-21; Eph.1:10; Col.1:20; etc. all creation including every member of the entire human race will be saved by recreation.

Consider Benhur, a computer is the creation of the maker, if get something wrong with the computer,** does the maker of the computer throw the computer to the computer hell for everlasting suffering,** no he fix it (recreate it).

Can we think, our Creator Almighty God has less ability then a maker of a computer?

After all, who authorized the devil to go to the garden, who authorized the devil to tempt Adam and Eve, of course God authorized both, and for what reason???

Because in the future, God converts the great evils in the world for a greater good.

Can be the greater good that apart from a few people God will throw the human race to hell?

Of course not, that would be the greatest disaster.
The greater good will be Universal Salvation, which is God’s will that Everyone Saved and God will save everyone.

It is true, God promised; apart from a few people He will throw every member of the human race to hell.

But God had even worse promise to the more than a hundred and twenty thousand members of Nineveh.

God has promised, 40 days and destroy all of them, didn’t take long time and God changed His mind and saved all of them without exception.

The way God demonstrated His universal Salvation in Nineveh, God will demonstrate His universal Initial Justification/Salvation on the entire human race.

THE WAY OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Rom.8:19-21;
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Eph.1:10;
In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

**Col.1:20; **
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[benhur]

**God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

Yes you read Archbishop Ladaria SJ. Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of faith right.**

At the fulfilment of Acts 3:20-21; Eph.1:10; Col.1:20; etc. all creation including every member of the entire human race will be saved by recreation.

Consider Benhur, a computer is the creation of the maker, if get something wrong with the computer,** does the maker of the computer throw the computer to the computer hell for everlasting suffering,** no he fix it (recreate it).

Can we think, our Creator Almighty God has less ability then a maker of a computer?

After all, who authorized the devil to go to the garden, who authorized the devil to tempt Adam and Eve, of course God authorized both, and for what reason???

Because in the future, God converts the great evils in the world for a greater good.

Can be the greater good that apart from a few people God will throw the human race to hell?

Of course not, that would be the greatest disaster.
The greater good will be Universal Salvation, which is God’s will that Everyone Saved and God will save everyone.

It is true, God promised; apart from a few people He will throw every member of the human race to hell.

But God had even worse promise to the more than a hundred and twenty thousand members of Nineveh.

God has promised, 40 days and destroy all of them, didn’t take long time and God changed His mind and saved all of them without exception.

The way God demonstrated His universal Salvation in Nineveh, God will demonstrate His universal Initial Justification/Salvation on the entire human race.

THE WAY OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Rom.8:19-21;
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Eph.1:10;
In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

**Col.1:20; **
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Hi LR.

Again, ,we are not "robots’’, computers. Pretty sure God is not a robot either, in which to fashion others in such likeness.

Do not see humans as part of the text in “creation” being restored. Indeed there will be new heaven and a new earth, but just as there are separate creations and separate days in genesis for between man , and all other "things’’, so “creations” here is distinct to "other things’, apart from "man’’. Yet the earth and man will be restored, but not every man in history, just as every tree and flower and animal that ever existed will be not be, but "new’ ones, that never existed before … but souls are eternal hence much conversation about some being restored and others not…to much “forever” in hell to disregard.

Will Satan also be restored ?

The only thing unanswered for me is where do all the “nations”, and their peoples come from in the new earth, for it is clear saints will be in Jerusalem, and seem separate from them (this leads JW i think to come up with their two groups of "saved’ people, that I do not condone)

Blessings

 

[LatinRight]

Hi LR.

Again, ,we are not "robots’’, computers. Pretty sure God is not a robot either, in which to fashion others in such likeness.

Do not see humans as part of the text in “creation” being restored. Indeed there will be new heaven and a new earth, but just as there are separate creations and separate days in genesis for between man , and all other "things’’, so “creations” here is distinct to "other things’, apart from "man’’. Yet the earth and man will be restored, but not every man in history, just as every tree and flower and animal that ever existed will be not be, but "new’ ones, that never existed before … but souls are eternal hence much conversation about some being restored and others not…to much “forever” in hell to disregard.

Will Satan also be restored ?

The only thing unanswered for me is where do all the “nations”, and their peoples come from in the new earth, for it is clear saints will be in Jerusalem, and seem separate from them (this leads JW i think to come up with their two groups of "saved’ people, that I do not condone)

Blessings

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

Without going into the fine details:
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including every member of the entire human race.

Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.

Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

God bless Benhur and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[benhur]

If Peter made his confession because he was regenerated, this seems to imply that the other apostles who didn’t make that confession were not regenerated, which is an odd inference to draw.

Hi,

Disagree that if Peter speaks, or if he speaks first, or if he speaks for the group, the others are "silent’’ or at odds , or are lacking other than being first to speak or being “spokesperson”. Group "dynamics’’ do not make it odd.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Jesus’ use of plural “we” refers to himself and his disciples.

Hi m,

Correct, and they were all Jewish, and more than the twelve. Many also infer those that were baptized by John the Baptist and then by the disciples of Jesus (especially if you believe the “water”’ is that of water baptism in the text).

Again the disciples (apostles and others) were Jewish, and do not see where He taught them earlier that regeneration is something new, but indeed something to be understood in and through Judaism.

Nicodemus and the other Pharisees had not yet heard this teaching about being born again from above.

I would say they did not understand it, or were spiritually ignorant of their own scriptures and traditions. I mean Jesus had to clarify many things were were lost over time, to some, so much so that they thought Jesus was teaching new (unheard of) things, or even strange, contrary, demonic. You can not “hear” without rebirth, at least not something you will then teach others.

Perhaps Jesus and his disciples had been teaching it orally prior to Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus, but this is this the first time it appears in scripture, so it was certainly not a teaching of the Pharisees’.

I like the “perhaps”, for it is better to rest on the assurity of OT showing being born from above, born of God, regenerated.

The Pharisees should have been teaching it !

Because according to scripture, people believed because of testimony or because of signs, not because they were already born again.

Yes, and some of that belief was for nothing, that is, writ says He knew what was in man, and many did not believe correctly (signs and wonders are effectually limited) .

Then after his discourse with Nicodemus, Jesus and his disciples went and baptized…who did they baptize? Believers, of course. The believers in Jesus were baptized because this is how they became born again.

and can the old man “believe” unto new life ? Can an unregenerate heart believe properly ? I say they were born of the Father and were then baptized.

But, who do you mean when you say “believers”? I take it you mean believers in Jesus?

I tell you Eve and Abel and Abraham, and David believed in Jesus.

And I don’t see how anyone before John the Baptist could be born again, because before John there was no preaching about Jesus!

Final answer? Jesus was preached* first* at the garden, splitting humankind into two classes, those believing/regenerated and those not,…sons of the the Promise/Eve, and sons of Satan.

God has been a reconciler unto Himself, spiritually, since the garden and the shedding of first blood…

From the Garden saints looked forward to the Messiah in faith, just as we look back in History to His propitiatory work in faith, a spiritual work.

It has always been faith that saves.

But, yes, just because they went through bar mitzvah, circumcision, etc, does not necessarily give them a spirit of belief.

Really ? What then, they were water baptized in hell (Paradise) before being led captive up to heaven with Jesus ?

Agree that a bar mitzvah or circumcision did not regenerate but were signs (of faith), just as water baptism is a sign of saving faith.

Blessings

 

[JustaSinner]

Paul is all about getting to heaven

Why subdue his body?

Look how many times he talks about sins of the flesh. And what is the consequence if one does NOT subdue the flesh?

One example from Paul out of many:

Look at what Paul is talking about RE: subduing sins of the flesh Galatians 5:19-21

Do you see another point he’s making?

“I warn you as I’ve warned you before that those who do such things…” go to hell.

he teaches them, to subdue their flesh which they were NOT doing hence a repeated warning. And the consequences for not subduing the sins of the flesh? They don’t inherit the kingdom of heaven. The prize? Heaven. By definition, sins that send one to hell are mortal sins. Hell is for the reprobate. Remember the word I referred you to previously for disqualify?
For Paul, Heaven is the goal. THAT’S the prize. AND to avoid Hell

I did an incomplete scan of the comments in this thread. I agree with your points in noting that Paul’s focus appears to be on obtaining the prize of heaven (although I don’t disagree that this Scriptural analogy can also be applied in reference to the loss of rewards other than heaven itself–e.g. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

Many of the leading Protestant reformers confessed that our failure to subdue our body and faithfully run the race resulted in the loss of salvation. Luther for instance notes frequently in his writings how saving faith and the Spirit will be lost if we do not subdue our sinful flesh:

Therefore, saints must, by a vigorous and unceasing warfare, subdue their sinful lusts if they would not lose God’s grace and their faith. Paul says in Romans 8, 13: “If ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” In order, then, to retain the Spirit and the incipient divine life, the Christian must contend against himself. Luther Works

It certainly appears from Scripture that salvation can be lost–and that it is lost in the case of all the “non-elect” who have the gift of faith but do not have the gift of perseverance to the end (unlike the “elect to glory” who are preserved by God’s sovereign working from ever falling utterly).

However, as I’ve noted several times in other threads–while I am not Calvinist on the question of falling from grace–the traditional Calvinist position is largely in agreement with the Augustinian/Thomistic views on the question of the necessity of perseverance in holiness for salvation.

In fact, the traditional Calvinist position affirms that diligently subduing the flesh and running the race of faith and holiness to the end is the necessary “means” of inheriting eternal life (and it is by this means that the elect inherit eternal life).

Calvinist Thomas Watson (1669, Heaven Taken by Storm):

1. Fourthly, the Christian must offer violence to HEAVEN. “The kingdom of Heaven suffers violence.” Though Heaven is given us freely—yet we must take pains for it. Canaan was given Israel freely—but they had to fight with the Canaanites. It is not a lazy wish, or a sleepy prayer, which will bring us to Heaven; we must offer violence. Therefore in Scripture our earnestness for Heaven is shown by those allegories and metaphors which imply violence.

1. Sometimes by striving. Luke 13:23-24. "Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.” (The Greek signifies, “Strive as in an agony.”)

1. Wrestling, which is a violent exercise. Eph. 6:12. We are to wrestle with a body of sin, and with the powers of hell.

3. Running in a race, 1 Cor. 9:24. “So run that you may obtain.” We have a long race from earth to Heaven—but a little time to run; it will soon be sunset. Therefore, so run. In a race there’s not only a laying aside of all weights that hinder—but a putting forth of all the strength of the body; a straining every joint that men may press on with all swiftness to lay hold on the prize. Thus Paul pressed towards the mark. Phil. iii:14. Alas, where is this holy violence to be found?

 

[JustaSinner]

The Calvinist Watson goes on to note:

This earnestness for heaven is compared to fighting, which implies violence, 1 Tim. vi. 12. “Fight the good fight of faith.” It is not enough to be laborers; we must be warriors. Indeed, in Heaven, our armor shall be hung up as a token of victory; but now it is a day of battle; and we must “fight the good fight of faith.” **As Hannibal forced a way for his army over the Alps and craggy rocks; so must we force our way to Heaven. **We must not only pray—but pray fervently, James vi.16. This is offering violence to Heaven.

Watson later explains the need for “holy violence” as follows:

The reasons why there must be this offering violence to Heaven are:

1. God’s indispensable command. He has enacted a law, that whoever eats of the fruit of paradise, shall eat it in the sweat of his brow. 2 Peter i. 10. “Give diligence to make your calling and election sure.”

2. God’s decree. The Lord has in his eternal decree joined the end and the means together: striving and entering, the race and the crown. And a man can no more think to come to Heaven without offering violence, than he can think to come to the end of his journey, who never sets a step in the way. Who expects an harvest without plowing and sowing? How can we expect the harvest of glory without labor? Though our salvation with respect to Christ is a purchase—yet with respect to us, it is a conquest.

1. We must offer violence to Heaven in regard to the difficulty of the work: Taking a kingdom. First, we must be pulled out of another kingdom, “The kingdom of darkness,” Acts xxvi.18. To get out of the state of nature is hard, and when that is done, and we are cut off from the wild olive tree, and implanted into Christ, there is new work still to do; new sins to mortify; new temptations to resist, new graces to quicken. A Christian must not only get faith—but go “from faith to faith,” Romans i. 17. This will not be done without violence.

The famous 18th century Calvinist Jonathan Edwards likewise affirms that walking in the way of holiness is the only way to salvation (Sermon on The Way of Holiness):

“And an highway shall be and a way, way, it shall be called the way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it.” – Isaiah 35:8
…
Observe in our text the subject spoken, that is, the way to salvation: “An highway shall be there, and a way.” This highway is the common and only way to heaven, for the way to heaven is but one. There is none ever get to heaven except they walk in this way some men don’t get to heaven one way and others another, but it i. one highway that is always traveled by those that obtain heaven.

It is the same narrow way that Christ tells us of. Some don’t go to heaven in a broad way, and others in a narrow; some in an easy and others in a difficult way; some in a way of self*denial and mortification, and others in a way of enjoyment of their lusts and sinful plea sures; some up hill and others down: but the way to heaven is the same, and it is the highway here spoken of. There is only one highway or common road, and no by-paths that some few go to heaven in, a’ exceptions from the rest.

If we seek never so diligently, we shall never find out an easier we, to heaven than that which Christ has revealed to us. We cannot find a broader way, but if we go to heaven, the way is so narrow that we must rub hard to get along and press forward. The kingdom of heaven must suffer violence; it must be taken by force, or else it never will be taken at all. If we don’t go by the footsteps of the flock, we shall never find the place where Christ feeds, and where he makes his flock to rest at noon.

As always–the reality of apostasy and the necessity of holiness are not at all opposed to firm assurance of our present and final salvation that we are called to in Scriptures. Our “infallible assurance” (as the Westminster Confession of Faith calls it) is to be grounded firmly on Christ and His Word versus the unscriptural (and dangerous) presumption of salvation that is taught so widely today.

JustaSinner–out for the week. Have a great week

 

[tgGodsway]

Luther was a once saved always saved guy. Luther and Calvin agreed on this narrow point. However, when he died, his successor Philip Melanchton took the Lutheran Church back into a Roman Catholic view on this narrow point.

Jesus was a once saved always saved guy! I’m so glad. he is.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi m,

Again the disciples (apostles and others) were Jewish, and do not see where He taught them earlier that regeneration is something new, but indeed something to be understood in and through Judaism.
I would say they did not understand it, or were ignorant of their own scriptures and traditions. I mean Jesus had to clarify many things were were lost over time, to some, so much so that they thought Jesus was teaching new (unheard of) things, or even strange, contrary, demonic. You can not “hear” without rebirth, at least not something you will then teach others. I like the “perhaps”, for it is better to rest on the assurity of OT showing being born from above, born of God, regenerated.

I still don’t see how regeneration should have been understood in and through Judaism. Do you mean to say that the Hebrew scriptures taught regeneration and the Jews were ignorant of their own scriptures? And these understandings were lost over time? Really? And traditions? Where in the OT are these teachings that the Jews were ignorant of? You say the OT showed being born from above. What are the verses?

Yes, and some of that belief was for nothing, that is, writ says He knew what was in man, and many did not believe correctly (signs and wonders are effectually limited) .
and can the old man “believe” unto new life ? Can an unregenerate heart believe properly ? I say they were born of the Father and were then baptized.

Yes, according to my view, the old man, someone unregenerate, *can *believe; although no, the belief itself does not cause new life. I know this from Acts, when Peter speaks to the multitude, when because of Peter’s speech, they come to believe. But what then should they do as a consequence of their new found faith? Peter answers, repent, turn from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit.
So this is why in my thinking they first believed, then because of their faith, were baptized and born of the Father.

I tell you Eve and Abel and Abraham, and David believed in Jesus.

Well, they believed in God. So did Cain. But what do you mean?

Final answer? Jesus was preached* first* at the garden, splitting humankind into two classes, those believing/regenerated and those not,…sons of the the Promise/Eve, and sons of Satan.

But it seems all of these believed, even the sons of Satan.

It has always been faith that saves.

Of course we all agree that it is Jesus that saves. He saves those who have faith in Him. And those who have faith in Jesus will obey Him, follow His Law. Jesus then saves those who obey Him. So indirectly we can say, as a matter of speaking, that faith saves.

Really ? What then, they were water baptized in hell (Paradise) before being led captive up to heaven with Jesus ?

??

Agree that a bar mitzvah or circumcision did not regenerate but were signs (of faith), just as water baptism is a sign of saving faith.

Sure, bar mitzvah and circumcision did not regenerate (they were not supposed to), but I don’t see in scripture where it says water baptism is a sign of saving faith. In fact, Peter says the opposite.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hi,

Disagree that if Peter speaks, or if he speaks first, or if he speaks for the group, the others are "silent’’ or at odds , or are lacking other than being first to speak or being “spokesperson”. Group "dynamics’’ do not make it odd.

Blessings

I guess I don’t follow your meaning.

Okay, you seem to say that the reason Peter was able to make his confession was that he was regenerated. And one cannot believe correctly unless he is regenerated? Right? But the others did not make a similar statement, they reported different, incorrect, opinions. Only Peter, because he was regenerated, stated the correct belief. Since the others did not express correct beliefs, this would mean they were not regenerate.

This seems to be an odd, that is a strange, conclusion.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is really pretty simple- it has nothing to do with being regenerated first. From our perspective we find a treasure and embrace it, giving up everything else either all at once or, perhaps more often, over time. And hopefully we hang on to it and grow with it as God transforms us into His image, as we persevere, as we continue to cooperate. Then He judges the results of it all. This has been the basic Christian way from day one. Much of the rest is just speculation, not of particular value.