OSAS you got a BIG PROBLEM

[guanophore]

My own opinion of the matter is that while the son was far off living his life…the Father was still loving him…looking for him each and every day…and when “he saw him a long way off”…the Father ran to him. The son was not “dead” to the Father…the son was “dead” to the life the Father had for him…

This does not make sense, Pub. Why would the father rejoice that he was dead, now alive, if he was not “dead” to him? All parents who have lost children still love them, and many still look for them every day. It does not make them any less “dead”.

The story isn’t about the state of the son who left…OR is it about the state of the son who staryed…BUT about the love and faithfulness of the Father…who evidently knew the son would return home since he looked for him each day so he could run to greet him when he returned.

It is about ALL those things. Jesus did not put unnecessary elements into his Parables. To say that these other details are unimportant or irrelevant is to cut out part of Jesus’ teaching.

There is no evidence in this parable that supports your opinionthat the father knew the son would return home. Parents of children who are dead do not know any such thing.

  I'm not sure that the story is talking about "mortal sin"....or "venial sin".....but the deep love of the Father for his children....to miss that point is to miss the whole point of the story.

That is one important part of the story that must be grasped. However, sin and how it separates people from the Father is also part of the story.

You wish to read other things into the story....that's fine...but it has nothing to do with OSAS...."states of sin" or the such......it's part of the parables Jesus told about the love of the Father....it fits right along side the "Shepherd left the 99 sheep to find the one lost lamb"....or the woman "who swept her whole house to find the one lost coin"

No, we are not “reading in”. We are just choosing not to ignore certain parts of the parable that you seem to think are not "relevant’ to your position.

 The author of Luke is speaking toward God's love and mercy.....not directly to the "sin" of either son.....and THAT for me is the most wonderful thing about these stories....God searches for "that which was lost"....."that which was dead".....and rejoices when we are found.....or when we come home.....

Pub, you can 't get the point of the depth and persistance of God’s mercy unless you recognize that it persists in spite of the sin. It is so marvellous BECAUSE of the sin and separation. Minimizing this does not support the point of the parable.

To read OSAS or "state of sin" into these very profound simple stories...is to loose sight of the love and faithfulness of the Father in our lostness....

No, Pub, it does not. The mercy of it is that he loves us even when we are in a state of sin, and are separated from Him. This is an essential point of the parable.

If you find your "take" on the parables more compelling....I'm good....I just don't see how the title of your thread has any bearing on the parable....OSAS is not a "BIG PROBLEM" in this parable...it's not addressed at all.:shrug:

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

 

[guanophore]

Found another one also
Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ set us free, so stand firm and do not SUBMIT AGAIN to the yoke of slavery.

How can you SUBMIT AGAIN if OSAS??

Yes, OSAS believe one can backlide,and again get caught up in sin. Before the end, though, they will be delivered from it, because God, who began a good work in them, is faithful, and will complete it.

 

[rinnie]

My point in this story is about one thing. The same thing this story was about Dead and alive.

It makes no difference if God was talking to the Jews or about Joe down the road. The POINT of this story is this. Can you be alive and then lose your life and then regain your life and become alive again.

So now the question, was the Son dead, and then did he become alive again. The storys says yes. AGAIN is the key to this whole story.

So according to the word of God are you ALIVE when you are in a state of mortal sin? Or are you dead when you are in a state of Mortal sin?

Can you confess your sin as the Church states and get out of a state of Mortal sin and become ALIVE AGAIN as the Son did, or what does it mean to be alive again then?

Back to the question at hand how can you be OSAS and become alive AGAIN? According to OSAS you are ALWAYS saved. AGAIN could not be possible,

I believe EVERYONE that answered me said they do not believe in OSAS. Which seems odd, not ONE OSAS believer even took a stab at this.

But the ones who did answer, never answered my question, How can the son be Dead, and then become alive AGAIN? Or was the Son never saved in the first place? And if he was not saved in the first place which would mean ALIVE how could he be ALIVE Again.

I have never quite got an answer to this question.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, OSAS believe one can backlide,and again get caught up in sin. Before the end, though, they will be delivered from it, because God, who began a good work in them, is faithful, and will complete it.

And that would make good sense IF you believed it was GOD doing all the work. But according to the word of GOD, if is US who must DO this work not God. God gives us the Grace to do his work but it is for us to either USE his grace or let it die. We as Catholic’s call this free will.

If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day and you say to them Go in peace and keep warm and eat well, but YOU do not GIVE THEM the necessities of the body what good is it?

God begins good work in all of us by giving us Grace. But its those who choose to USE the grace that complete the good work in them, Not God. God does not DO the works for us. He gives us everything we need to DO THEM ourself. but as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water.

 

[rinnie]

Not all Jews are Tax Collectors and sinners, but those to whom He was preaching were.

Luke 15:1-2
15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

What would make you think they were NOT Jews?

Matt 15:24
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matt 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

As many times as Ihave read this I missed the part about not to go anywhere near the gentiles. Amazing isn’t it, How you can read the word of God a million times and see it again EVERY time like it was the first.

But anywho, my great aunt always said that and has been on my mimd ALL WEEK, better get out some prayers for her, ANYWHO when Jesus spoke it was a lesson or teaching for all to learn.

Like when he gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, Yes we do not have the keys, and Yes he was speaking to Peter, but it was still something we need to know, things like that.

Everything God said he had a reason for it.

But when it comes down to it for this parable. You HAVE to see it 2 ways. Either we can all sin, repent and become alive again, or Jesus was only talking about the Jews and we then are in big trouble. I think we can all agree that the Jews and the Gentiles can be alive again.

But lets get back to the point, ALIVE AGAIN what does that mean?

 

[rinnie]

Yes, OSAS believe one can backlide,and again get caught up in sin. Before the end, though, they will be delivered from it, because God, who began a good work in them, is faithful, and will complete it.

You know this statement does have alot of truth in it. Half truths, and we know who loves Half truths. GOd is faithful that part is true. But he will not complete our work for us. He will give us the tools but we need to use them.

 

[onenow1]

But lets get back to the point, ALIVE AGAIN what does that mean?

Hi,rinnie let me take a stab at this, can it really mean that God is in charge , His decision is final in the end as His father ran to His son,this shows Gods mercy if we repent sincerely. .This parable reminds me of the divine mercy,made clear to ST.Faustina Kowalski.Two more cents:twocents:

 

[jlhargus]

They say that God allows the sheep to wander, but calls them back, and disciplines them when they go astray.

Heb 12:7-11

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

JL: If they would say, “he would have RETURNED no matter what”. I would say, he had to LEAVE first. If he RETURNED to a state of salvation he had to have first lost salvation to RETURN. Even if God FORCED him back. Also if God’s grace is irresistalbe how could he have resisted and left in the first place?

 

[jlhargus]

Yeah, been there, done that!

They are taught that Jesus came to minister to the Jews, then sent the Apostles for the Gentiles. The Jews were blinded,and we are now in the “age of the Gentiles” after which, the Jews who are to be saved will be converted and at that time there will be one olive tree.

As far as Hebrews, this is not written for Gentiles, but to and for the Jews. I have also heard some very wild interpretations of these verses in Hebrews.

JL: My response would be SHOW ME don’t give me opinion, where is your scriptural evidence? Didn’t Jesus come to save Jews and Gentiles? Is there more than ONE OLIVE TREE, are Gentiles not grafted into that ONE olive tree? Yes Jesus preached only to the Jews, that was his mission. But the gospel he preached was the same gospel preached to the Gentiles.

Mt28:16 Then **the eleven disciples **went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 GO YE THEREFORE, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 2 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[jlhargus]

Not all Jews are Tax Collectors and sinners, but those to whom He was preaching were.

Luke 15:1-2
15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

What would make you think they were NOT Jews?

Matt 15:24
“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matt 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

JL: My response would be [Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, **they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that SAMARIA had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:]

The ONE GOSPEL of Christ was to be preached FIRST to the Jews then to the Gentiles. It is the SAME GOSPEL.

 

[rinnie]

Hi,rinnie let me take a stab at this, can it really mean that God is in charge , His decision is final in the end as His father ran to His son,this shows Gods mercy if we repent sincerely. .This parable reminds me of the divine mercy,made clear to ST.Faustina Kowalski.Two more cents:twocents:

Well lets see Is God in Charge? Well that depemds on You. I WANT him to be in charge over me. I want him to consume me with all the Grace he feels is needed for ME to do his work. BUT and this is a big but its my Choice. I WANT HIm. If you don’t want and ask for God’s grace it will not be force upon you. You have to PRAY for Grace.

It is indeed Gods decision in the end IF we repent. But if we do not REPENT there is no decision for God to make, do you not agree,

Remember the ONE deadly SIN? To reject God, to not want him. Something to think about

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Since we’re still talking about “blowing OSAS out of the water”, I think a better parable would be the Parable of the Sower.

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy ; and these have no firm root ; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. (Lk 8:13)

That seems to be, at least to me, more definitive than the Prodigal Son. Just my two…

 

[James_Least]

Regardless of the obscure analogies and unnecessary inferences of men, all scripture must harmonize. God is not the author of confusion.

Re: John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluch them out of my Father’s hand.” John’s Gospel has many other scripture which say the same thing: “they shall never perish”. What part of never do we not understand?

John also said in another place: I John 5:11-13, “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that you have eternal life…” These are not conditional statements preceded by “if” or “maybe”.

Are we going to ignore these plain scriptures or go for the obscure and unwarranted philosophies which conform to our lifestyles?

“Let God be found True, and every man a liar”

Peace,

James Least

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Regardless of the obscure analogies and unnecessary inferences of men, all scripture must harmonize. God is not the author of confusion.

Re: John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluch them out of my Father’s hand.” John’s Gospel has many other scripture which say the same thing: “they shall never perish”. What part of never do we not understand?

John also said in another place: I John 5:11-13, “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that you have eternal life…” These are not conditional statements preceded by “if” or “maybe”.

Are we going to ignore these plain scriptures or go for the obscure and unwarranted philosophies which conform to our lifestyles?

“Let God be found True, and every man a liar”

Peace,

James Least

I recently heard a pastor say, “We’re as saved as we want to be.” He meant that we cannot lose our salvation but we can forsake it. In my opinion, this seems to make the most sense of the scriptures.

 

[Mandote27]

if you beleave that once saved? always saved? then why the need to be born again?

 

[mysteryreligion]

One non-Catholic speaker whose name ive long forgotten has described the Sinners Prayer combined with OSAS as the most dangerous lie ever inflicted on Protestants.

Among others, Scott Hahn and Tim Staples have some strong words regarding it.

great minds think alike

i have said the same thing

 

[jlhargus]

Regardless of the obscure analogies and unnecessary inferences of men, all scripture must harmonize. God is not the author of confusion.

JL: True scripture MUST harmonize and ALWAYS does. OSAS contradicts many scriptures such as Hebrews6.

[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for **THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

[1Tm5:11 But the YOUNGER WIDOWS REFUSE: for WHEN THEY HAVE BEGUN TO WAX WANTON AGAINST CHRIST, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH. 13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 FOR SOME ARE ALREADY TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN.] These are young Christian widows who have turned from the faith AFTER Satan. They have LOST their SALVATION.

Re: John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluch them out of my Father’s hand.” John’s Gospel has many other scripture which say the same thing: “they shall never perish”. What part of never do we not understand?

JL: If I walk away it is my FREE WILL choice, God NEVER FORCES. I will NEVER PERISH as long as I POSSES GOD (Eternal life indwelling my soul). When I willfully sin in a serious matter I lose the, indwelling, eternal life of God. I reap the WAGES of sin, which is DEATH, Rms6:23. [Gal6:7 BE NOT DECEIVED; God is not mocked: for WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.] Just as Adam thru sin died and lost the indwelling Holy Spirit for all humanity. Just as Hebrews6:4-6 makes crystal clear along with a number of other scirptures.

Your interpretation of Jn10:27-29 contradicts Hb6:4-6 so we can dismiss your interpretation, with your own words, posted above. “all scripture must harmonize. God is not the author of confusion.”] True NO ONE, or thing, on earth or in hell, including Satan himself, can snatch a child of God from God’s hand. But any sheep can, by FREE WILL, deliberately wonder off and be lost, as Hb clearly teaches. God wants man’s FREE WILL love and obedience of faith. He certainly could FORCE us, but what kind of love is that.

[Ezek18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: **THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE.]

]Jms1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH.] In order to spiritually die one MUST FIRST be spiritually ALIVE.

Hb10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done DESPITE unto THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

John also said in another place: I John 5:11-13, “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that you have eternal life…” These are not conditional statements preceded by “if” or “maybe”.

JL: When we commit a deadly sin, such as adultery, we no longer have the Son.

[1Cor6:9 Know ye not that **THE UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,] How many times does one have to be a fornicator, to be unrighteous? How many times does one have to be an idolater to be unrighteous?

]Rms6:23 For THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.] How many times do you have to commit adultery, before you are an adulter and reap it’s wages? How many times do you have to murder, before you reap it’s wages?

2Pt2:20 For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and ** OVERCOME**, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But IT IS HAPPENED UNTO THEM according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit AGAIN; and the sow THAT WAS WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[pismopal]

OSAS is not taught in all Non Catholic denoms so it should not be associated with all of them…which ones do? Who knows…it gives me a headache but it seems to me to be a play for membership with false doctrine. I mean it sounds good to a casual seeker and I know it is taught in one major non Catholic denom…that would be Baptist. Just reason number 5229 why I am a happy Catholic

 

[Georgia]

OSAS was huge in my old Baptist church. People were often given tracts with something like “Do you know you are saved?” That was followed with another part suggesting the Roman Road, a list of quotes from Romans used to assert that one’s salvation was both known to the believer and was permanent.

We had many members who were at church only at the most special moments. There was no such thing as believing they were endangering their salvation. It was thought to have been locked in stone the minute they said the Sinner’s Prayer and believed.

Many times I sat at funerals and heard sermons about how the deceased was in Heaven at that very moment. It was believed that the salvation experience guaranteed immediate entrance into Heaven at the moment of death, no matter what had taken place in life after being saved.

 

[James_Least]

JL: True scripture MUST harmonize and ALWAYS does. OSAS contradicts many scriptures such as Hebrews6.

[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for **THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED

, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

[1Tm5:11 But the YOUNGER WIDOWS REFUSE: for WHEN THEY HAVE BEGUN TO WAX WANTON AGAINST CHRIST, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH. 13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 FOR SOME ARE ALREADY TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN.] These are young Christian widows who have turned from the faith AFTER Satan. They have LOST their SALVATION.

JL: If I walk away it is my FREE WILL choice, God NEVER FORCES. I will NEVER PERISH as long as I POSSES GOD (Eternal life indwelling my soul). When I willfully sin in a serious matter I lose the, indwelling, eternal life of God. I reap the WAGES of sin, which is DEATH, Rms6:23. [Gal6:7 BE NOT DECEIVED; God is not mocked: for WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.] Just as Adam thru sin died and lost the indwelling Holy Spirit for all humanity. Just as Hebrews6:4-6 makes crystal clear along with a number of other scirptures.

Your interpretation of Jn10:27-29 contradicts Hb6:4-6 so we can dismiss your interpretation, with your own words, posted above. “all scripture must harmonize. God is not the author of confusion.”] True NO ONE, or thing, on earth or in hell, including Satan himself, can snatch a child of God from God’s hand. But any sheep can, by FREE WILL, deliberately wonder off and be lost, as Hb clearly teaches. God wants man’s FREE WILL love and obedience of faith. He certainly could FORCE us, but what kind of love is that.

[Ezek18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: **THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE.]

]Jms1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH.] In order to spiritually die one MUST FIRST be spiritually ALIVE.

Hb10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done DESPITE unto THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

JL: When we commit a deadly sin, such as adultery, we no longer have the Son.

[1Cor6:9 Know ye not that **THE UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,] How many times does one have to be a fornicator, to be unrighteous? How many times does one have to be an idolater to be unrighteous?

]Rms6:23 For THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.] How many times do you have to commit adultery, before you are an adulter and reap it’s wages? How many times do you have to murder, before you reap it’s wages?

2Pt2:20 For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and ** OVERCOME**, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But IT IS HAPPENED UNTO THEM according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit AGAIN; and the sow THAT WAS WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.

---

Who then can be saved? We are all lost, condemned and separated from God outside the shed blood of Jesus and His imputed righteousness for all believers. All of our righteous is as filthy rags. There are none righteous, not one.

Have you ever had someone give you something most precious and then take it back?

The fact that we are born in the flesh cannot be changed. The same is true in the spirit.

“Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine; Oh what a foretaste of glory divine; heir of salvation–purchased of God; born of His Spirit, washed in His blood…” These words sum it up.

Peace,

James Least