OSAS

[Philthy]

Hi Jerry!
Jerry Marino:

Definitions of ‘assurance’ (ə-shŏŏŕəns)
Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary - (6 definitions)
(noun)

The act of assuring. A statement or indication that inspires confidence; a guarantee or pledge: gave her assurance that the plan would succeed. Freedom from doubt; certainty: set sail in the assurance of favorable winds.

Thanks for the info here. None of it contradicts my claim: OSAS and Assurance of Salvation are related but different. For example one may have an assurance of salvation without believing in OSAS. Why dont you try answering some of the questions from my post which deal directly with the topic of OSAS? Again, that’s only if you are truly open to the fullness of truth regarding the topic…
If not just let me know…

 

[Maranatha33]

Hi Philthy!,

I’m trying to understand this concluding verse and how it relates to the concept of OSAS. You chose not to comment, so I can’t know your thoughts, but you must believe it somehow supports OSAS. I see exactly the opposite: it says that salvation will be brought to those who are waiting for him.

I didn’t comment because I was studying the Canons of The Council of Trent, number 13, 1551. and number 22, 1562. Since this such a critical and emotional topic, I had to make sure that I was understood to be referencing a specific point, not attacking Roman Catholicism or any specific members. So the delay was a combination of caution and presenting my case for OSAS properly and constructively.

The first contradiction with OSAS is that salvation is spoken of as a FUTURE EVENT rather than a past event. OSAS holds to salvation as instantaneous, permanent and complete at the time one comes to faith in Christ. The author here is speaking of salvation as a future event.

By definition, OSAS addresses the future definitively. Think of infant baptism. The Baptism done early in life will endure eternally. One does not have to be re-baptized. It could be OBAB correct? The same principal applies to salvation.

The second contradiction with OSAS is that “waiting for him” is a part of “persevering to the end” in faith. Do you accept that only those who persevere to the end in waiting for Christ will be saved?

Yes. The question is who perseveres? OSAS, or being born again, requires repentance and reception of God’s Holy Spirit through the propitiation given by Jesus at Calgary.
The Holy Spirit leads us into situations that require us to persevere. For example, When Jesus was Baptized, the Holy Spirit led Him into the wilderness to be tempted. The cowering mass of humanity known as the Apostles, became so brave that they (except John) were martyred for their faith. Their perseverance was far greater after receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, which actually began their ministries, than it ever was previously. The apostle Paul suffered only after receiving the Holy Spirit in Damascus.

Paul directly addresses the perseverance and waiting of the Spirit filled believer.

2 Timothy 4:6-8 (New International Version)

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. (perseverance) 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day (waiting)—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (waiting)

Again, the OSAS crowd would maintain that persevering in faith is not a requirement, nor is waiting for him - they would claim that once you accepted Christ and were born again that your salvation is assured even if they didnt wait or persevere. What say you?

Your worldview seems to be exclusively from the human obligation point. OSAS requires us to follow Him by His directions.

Proverbs 3:5,6

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will direct your paths

Hope this clarifies what I believe.

In Christ Jesus,

M33

 

[Philthy]

Hi M33 :tiphat:

I didn’t comment because I was studying the Canons of The Council of Trent, number 13, 1551. and number 22, 1562. Since this such a critical and emotional topic, I had to make sure that I was understood to be referencing a specific point, not attacking Roman Catholicism or any specific members. So the delay was a combination of caution and presenting my case for OSAS properly and constructively.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Your worldview seems to be exclusively from the human obligation point. OSAS requires us to follow Him by His directions.

Proverbs 3:5,6

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will direct your paths

Hope this clarifies what I believe.

In Christ Jesus,

M33

HI Maranatha - good insights. Thanks. I like this part you mentioned above.

At issue though is the fact that Proverbs was written for those who were trusting in The Lord to come and direct them in His pathways to the promised land in heaven. And that trustful waiting bore fruit! Christ comes to teach us His ways and gives us the apostolic teachers and their successors to keep us in those teachings and on the straight and narrow path through the narrow gateway of The Lord on the doorway to heaven (the cross is the passover door lentil with the blood of he lamb sprinkled on it).

Catholics fully trust in the Lord to transform our old world view into a Kingdom view when He said “He who loves me is the one who does ALL I command”. What He has commanded is that we follow Him and do as He did by example and to also follow those who He gave the apostolic authority to speak in His name and shepherd us till His return.

We trust Him at His word.
*
Matthew 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 21: 15-17
Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "**Feed my sheep. **

Luke 10:16
The person who hears you hears me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

John 10:1-3
1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.*

Mary, who knew Jesus longer than any man on earth also reflected this same joyful trust and assurance when she instructed those at the Canna wedding “do what He tells you”.

Catholics have a Kingdom view and trust Jesus at His word. And we know that salvation is not possible for anyone who rejects Him or who rejects those who He sent in His name…

James

 

[Maranatha33]

Hey Philthy!

It is unwise to establish any analogies to Baptism at this point. Not only is it an unnecessary diversion, but we might hold different beliefs on what Baptism accomplishes, its form, it’s duration, etc and this will further confuse the discussion of OSAS. Baptism does leave an indelible mark on the human soul, but that mark does not guarantee that one is saved or that they will be going to Heaven. Bad analogy.

Your original statement was:

“The first contradiction with OSAS is that salvation is spoken of as a FUTURE EVENT rather than a past event.”

My answer was the parallel of an event happening in one’s theological life only once, like the example in RC of infant baptism (only once) and being born again for salvation (OSAS) I was not comparing Baptism and salvation, just showing the similarity in the “only once, for all times,” philosophy. I contend that the *results of salvation *are demonstrated in the future, not the act of the receiving salvation itself.

Is it possible that we will not persevere? yes or no please, followed by any commentary you wish to add to qualify your answer.
If so, is there a potentially eternal negative consequence if we fail to persevere? yes or no please, followed by commentary.
Is our perseverance purely an act of God or does it require us to respond to Gods grace and choose to cooperate? yes or no please, followed by commentary.

This is not your original question. I cant say yes or no to a question I didn’t receive. Your original question was:

Do you accept that only those who persevere to the end in waiting for Christ will be saved?

My answer was “yes.” Then I proposed a different scenario regarding perseverance.

I cannot alter the divine Will - I either am entirely subject to it beyond my control, or I am in a position to choose whether I cooperate or disobey it. If that is what you mean by the “human obligation point”, then yes, that is a very significant part of my world view. Im not sure how that is relevant to OSAS.

OSAS is based on the premise that God chooses us, we don’t chose Him. The apostles asked Jesus about this in John 6: 28,29:

**28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” **

This is a very specific directive. To believe is to have faith, practice faith, and live by faith.

Romans 1:17

17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

The human obligation point is what works men do, in contrast to the “work” of God. My worldview of salvation is not based on my actions, but on His will.

Also consider Isaiah 64:6

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Our righteous acts are our works. And since God sees them as filthy rags, it seems to me that our works will not lead to salvation.

Honestly this barely scratches the surface. But Im not in a rush. There is so much more Scripture, history and logic to wade through. We will make considerable progress if you answer the above questions in a straightforward manner.

Blessings

You are absolutely correct about the surface, and the fact that presenting our beliefs can not be done in a rush. I believe it is essential for us to understand each others perspective that will increase our progress. I am sorry if I created confusion by my answers. That certainly was not my intention. I am looking forward to more communications with you, and I appreciate the respectful, intellectual, and non-emotional manner you have shown.

In Christ Jesus,

M33

 

[SteveGC]

Here’s the part about OSAS I don’t get.

How is it possible to have absolute assurance at any single point in your life, if you have to wait to see if your profession of faith was genuine by manifesting itself in the bearing of fruit, and repentance of sin?

IOW, people who profess OSAS also believe that true faith = absolute assurance. But true faith also = bearing fruit and repentance

Is “bearing fruit” which proves “true faith” a one time event too? I mean, after your sinners prayer, if you give a dollar to a homeless man, does that testify to you that your faith is true, and now you can kick in your OSAS belief?

Likewise, is “repentance” a one time event? After your sinners prayer, and then after your first recognized sin which you confess to, does this testify to your “true faith” and hence, your OSAS belief?

If so, then what about the time in between the profession of faith and the act of fruit/repentance? Are you convinced during that time of OSAS simply because you haven’t had the opportunity to do those acts, and yet assume that you would oblige them? And when you bear fruit (or confess) for the first time, why does this single event convince you that your profession was true and you now have absolute assurance for the rest of your life?

If not…if it’s a lifetime of fruit and repentance, does this not refute OSAS, because you must wait and observe yourself over a long period of time to discern the authenticity of your original profession of faith?

I guess what I’m saying here, in a nutshell, is…OSAS is really only a lip-service doctrine. I don’t even think those who profess it, really believe it in their hearts. It sounds good because it resounds with giving all the credit to God who makes your eternal salvation a reality in the here and now of your life, which is SO AMAZING to you because it is so unreasonable to believe it. Well, there’s a reason it’s unbelievable…because it isn’t true.

But not having absolute assurance doesn’t DIScredit God, as OSAS’ers think it does. On the contrary, moral assurance is what God wants us to have, because He made a point to ensure we were created with free will, because this is the only way mutual Love is possible, and absolute assurance virtually destroys the concept of free will, by a false belief that God takes over all our faculties and therefore fruit and repentance become actions we have no choice over. Our free will essentially ceases to exist at our profession of faith. Free will that can NEVER not choose God’s will, is not FREE will. Do OSAS’er believe in 100% free will after their profession of faith?

God Bless

 

[Randy_Carson]

everyone wants to go to heaven, i have yet to meet someone who says that hell is where they want to spend eternity. so the age old question, how can i have eternal life?

can one be sure of salvation?

Of course. If you have been baptized and have not committed an unrepented mortal sin.

As for the subject of the thread:

Eternal Security Refuted from Scripture

Matthew 24:13
“He who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matthew 25:31-46
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Romans 11:22
“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off”

Hebrews 10:26-29
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20-21
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Assurance of Salvation Refuted from Scripture

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.

 

[Maranatha33]

Hi CentralFlJames!

I sincerely appreciate your Biblical knowledge. As I am sure that you know, I must focus on our differences for this discussion, not the many points of agreement. It is a shame.

At issue though is the fact that Proverbs was written for those who were trusting in The Lord to come and direct them in His pathways to the promised land in heaven. And that trustful waiting bore fruit!

I believe that the issue is whether these Scriptures are still applicable to today. I contend that they are. This is based on the fact that Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17

17**“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have *not come to abolish them *but to fulfill them.” **

I believe that any Old Testament Scripture not directly addressed by the New Testament, is still applicable today and not abolished. (e.g. the 10 Commandments) And that trustful waiting still bears fruit.

Christ comes to teach us His ways and gives us the apostolic teachers and their successors to keep us in those teachings and on the straight and narrow path through the narrow gateway of The Lord on the doorway to heaven (the cross is the passover door lentil with the blood of he lamb sprinkled on it).

The differences here are the importance given to the Word of God as compared to the apostles and their successors. The apostles were consistently pointing to Jesus and His Word, not their importance. Peter used the “Name of Jesus” as his authority, not himself. Paul drew an even more definitive line between the “message and the messengers.”

**I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[a]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13***Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? ***14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I greatly respect the apostles. Peter was my favorite. But *only *the Word of God has the power to keep us on the path. This is where I believe the major differences between Christian denominations, begins. As it passes through time, it becomes a question of the infallibility of the church through its leaders and teachers. I believe that only His Word remains infallible. If one researches the history of Pope Leo X and Pope Alexander VI, It becomes difficult to believe that they were able to keep the church infallible. At least, from my perspective.

Catholics fully trust in the Lord to transform our old world view into a Kingdom view when He said “He who loves me is the one who does ALL I command”. What He has commanded is that we follow Him and do as He did by example and to also follow those who He gave the apostolic authority to speak in His name and shepherd us till His return.

This is the salvation question that is commonly addressed. Are doing His commands apart of being saved, or the result of salvation?

We trust Him at His word.

An awesome statement of faith!

Like I said earlier, I would rather spend time discussing the commonalities of our faith, not the differences. You obviously have a STRONG love for the Lord, and that is the greatest attribute one can have!
I am starting to wear down, so I will get back to the rest of your post, after some sleep.

In Christ Jesus,

M33**

 

[Jerry_Marino]

once saved always saved is assurance of God’s word my friends cause salvation can not be canceled.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Galatians 6:1 Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted.

The ethical exhortations begun at Gal 5:1 continue with a variety of admonitions to the community (brothers: see the note on Gal 1:2). Nearly every sentence contains a separate item of practical advice; the faith and freedom of the gospel underlie each maxim. Tensions and temptation within communal life have previously been addressed in Gal 5:15, 26 and Gal 6:1 continues with a case in which a person is caught in some transgression such as those in Gal 5:19-21; cf Gal 2:17.

 

[fhansen]

once saved always saved is assurance of God’s word my friends cause salvation can not be canceled.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

"For many are called but few are chosen." Matt 22:14
God was wise in ensuring we don’t become overconfident regarding our salvation.

 

[SteveGC]

I believe that the issue is whether these Scriptures are still applicable to today. I contend that they are. This is based on the fact that Jesus said: Matthew 5:17 **“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have *not come to abolish them ***but to fulfill them.” I believe that any Old Testament Scripture not directly addressed by the New Testament, is still applicable today and not abolished. (e.g. the 10 Commandments) And that trustful waiting still bears fruit.

Hi again m33. If I may interject. James was not suggesting this teaching from Proverbs wasn’t applicable. Indeed, like you affirm, this teaching is not abolished. It still applies to us today, but between the span of time from Proverbs to the 21st Century, we had the Incarnation of God, and one of His intentions (besides His ultimate sacrifice) was to leave us His Church, of which He appointed leaders. Leaning on The Church is NOT leaning on our own understanding, rather it is fully leaning on Christ.

The differences here are the importance given to the Word of God as compared to the apostles and their successors. The apostles were consistently pointing to Jesus and His Word, not their importance. Peter used the “Name of Jesus” as his authority, not himself.

Yes, the apostles always identified Christ as the ultimate authority, which He certainly is. But that still didn’t keep them from teaching the masses with authority themselves. Christ shared this authority because He knew He could not remain on earth (which they didn’t really understand, but later did - as we do today). Christ knew that people must be LED unto Himself in His absence. He also knew that people are not led by reading…but by hearing. Hearing is human on human. Not human on book. Nothing about this changed when the apostles themselves died, because as Scripture attests, they ensured the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift of infallible teaching of faith and morals) was passed on to younger, worthy disciples, through ordination (the laying on of hands). The sinful nature of apostles, or of future popes (which you addressed) are not significant to the gift of infallibility. You have to be careful not to confuse impeccability (which is not a gift from the Holy Spirit to the leaders of the Church), with infallibility (the authentic gift given to them). No corrupt Pope has ever been successful at reversing any teaching of the Deposit of Faith. Not a single one of them. It’s a testament to the promise of Christ.

This is the salvation question that is commonly addressed. Are doing His commands apart of being saved, or the result of salvation?

They are a part of it, for salvation is not a one-time event.

Good to share with you again. God Bless.

p.s. James, sorry if I stepped on ya, brother

 

[Philthy]

Hello again M33!
Lets try this again:
I asked, “Will only those who persevere to the end be saved?”
And you answered

M33:

Yes.

And you went on to qualify that yes answer with the following statements:

M33:

The question is who perseveres? OSAS, or being born again, requires repentance and reception of God’s Holy Spirit through the propitiation given by Jesus at Calgary. The Holy Spirit leads us into situations that require us to persevere.

This statement cannot be left unaddressed. It is your explanation of who it is that perseveres unto salvation. There is some ambiguity in it which needs to be addressed in order to understand your view of OSAS. In particular, you claim that:

M33:

The Holy Spirit leads us into situations that require us to persevere.

I had asked you the following 3 questions (post 46) based on this claim of yours.
Philthy's prior post:

**Is it possible that we will not persevere? **yes or no please, followed by any commentary you wish to add to qualify your answer.
If so, is there a potentially eternal negative consequence if we fail to persevere? yes or no please, followed by commentary.
Is our perseverance purely an act of God or does it require us to respond to Gods grace and choose to cooperate? yes or no please, followed by commentary.

But you ignored these questions saying

M33:

This is not your original question. I cant say yes or no to a question I didn’t receive.

Im a little confused on this. I asked these questions in post 46 - do you think they are not reasonable questions? These questions flow naturally from our belief that only those who persevere to the end will be saved. If that is true, then This is a most important statement. The key term which needs to be explored is the word “require”. Usually the term require is used as a conditional term where if we desire some end then a particular condition must be met while both the possibility that it will be met and the possibility that it will not remain real. For example: Obtaining a captains license requires that the applicant demonstrate competence in navigation and boating. Some will meet the requirement, some will not. Is that how you meant the term “require” above? If not, do you mean to say that the Holy Spirit forces us to persevere? The three questions above will help us to move closer to understanding your view of OSAS - if its not too much of an inconvenience I would appreciate a sincere reply to each. I wasnt trying to be a “wise guy” with the “Yes or No” requests - its necessary to speak in the affirmative or negative in addition to offering justification for our posititions.

Blessings

 

[SteveGC]

once saved always saved is assurance of God’s word my friends cause salvation can not be canceled.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Galatians 6:1 Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted.

The ethical exhortations begun at Gal 5:1 continue with a variety of admonitions to the community (brothers: see the note on Gal 1:2). Nearly every sentence contains a separate item of practical advice; the faith and freedom of the gospel underlie each maxim. Tensions and temptation within communal life have previously been addressed in Gal 5:15, 26 and Gal 6:1 continues with a case in which a person is caught in some transgression such as those in Gal 5:19-21; cf Gal 2:17.

Jerry, none of what you present here supports OSAS. In fact, besides the first verse there from Romans, none of it comes even close to the notion.

So, I’ll address Romans

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

When something is irrevocable, it doesn’t infer that it will be accepted, or complied with by the people who receive it. Irrevocable means unalterable, unable to be revoked. This means that God means business with His gifts, with His calling. He will not change it for anyone’s sake. In other words, the GIVING of the gift is irrevocable, NOT the RECEIVING. To paraphrase the earlier verse (Rom 11:25), He (God) hardened Israel for a time, and did not cease (it was irrevocable) until His promise of the fullness of the Gentiles took place (which was Christ’s mission).

You would like irrevocable to mean that He grants us salvation the instant we come to Him, and we cannot lose it even if we screw it up because God’s bound to the irreversibility of the fulfillment of the gift because we initial received it. Nonsense. That’s not implied in all of Romans 11, or any other Scripture. Furthermore, and most importantly, it’s a fatal twist of the meaning.

Would you care to address my previous post as well? (#49). Thanks

God Bless You

 

[Philthy]

Hey Philthy!

OSAS is based on the premise that God chooses us, we don’t chose Him. The apostles asked Jesus about this in John 6: 28,29:

 

[CentralFLJames]

p.s. James, sorry if I stepped on ya, brother

Not a problem at all Steve. I got busy this morning and could not respond right away. Thanks for assuring Maranatha that I was not in any way suggesting that that OT passage was no longer applicable but rather the promise for what was to come.

I don’t know where Maranatha is getting these implicated ideas about the Church leadership acting like they are here to talk about their own authority and not Christ’s. That is so unlike the Catholic Church. I can’t recollect in all of the published ecclesial documents, papal bulls, encyclicals and even individual bishop and priest homilies I have ever read or heard of a clergy of the Church speaking in the first-person as if they were an authority onto themselves. It’s been the opposite actually. In fact every priest and Bishop I have ever met has always projected a very passive selfless tone except when speaking and teaching confidently about dogma and scripture. When authority does come up as a topic it is always in the semantic of “by the power of Christ’s name” or in the authority given “His Church” and then only to give the laity assurances that their sins are forgiven if they sincerely confess them.

If non-Catholics would get out of the books and debates and actually meet a priest or bishop person to person they would get a much better perspective. They would see for themselves that our priests are very approachable, mild and kindly and not some screaming and stern “power hungry” type individuals that some must imagine them to be. The whole idea of power-hungry for authority priests is kind of laughable to me actually given what a priest’s give up to serve God.

James

 

[Dchsknight]

Just one thing i would like to make known. People should really stop using that whole Eye of the needle and rich man thing to talk about OSAS. What Jesus was talking about is that on the back side of the Jerusalem is a small gate called “The Eye of the Needle”. IT is for people who came to the city after the hour the Main gates were to be shut. It is a small winding path walled in, and for a camel to get in. it has to get on it’s knees and crawl through it, to do this the owner of the caravan must unload his stuff and carry it in by hand and then get all of his animals crawling, Camels however had a particularly hard time getting though because of the turns in the path. They are big animals, in a small space trying to make a 90 degree turn. not a happy animal.

Jesus is not talking about a sewing needle but the back gate. Yes he is talking about a rich man being to mindful of his “things”, but people use this who argument about rich people and the needle, and they get answers like, well a camel cant go through the eye of a sewing needle…Jesus aint talking about a sewing Needle. Just makeing sure people know this, so that when you use this Argument that you know that Jesus was refering to that Gate not a sewing needle. just to help with people arguing back.

 

[Maranatha33]

I had asked you the following 3 questions (post 46) based on this claim of yours.

Is it possible that we will not persevere? yes or no please, followed by any commentary you wish to add to qualify your answer.
If so, is there a potentially eternal negative consequence if we fail to persevere? yes or no please, followed by commentary.
Is our perseverance purely an act of God or does it require us to respond to Gods grace and choose to cooperate? yes or no please, followed by commentary.

My natural instinct when I am told how to answer, is that refers to a past statement So that is what I addressed. But I will now address those three questions.

Question 1, Yes
Question 2, Yes
Question 3, I don’t know how to answer a “yes or no” question based on an “either or” statement. I will need you to reword your question, then I will gladly respond.

These questions flow naturally from our belief that only those who persevere to the end will be saved. If that is true, then This is a most important statement. The key term which needs to be explored is the word “require”. Usually the term require is used as a conditional term where if we desire some end then a particular condition must be met while both the possibility that it will be met and the possibility that it will not remain real. For example: Obtaining a captains license requires that the applicant demonstrate competence in navigation and boating. Some will meet the requirement, some will not. Is that how you meant the term “require” above? If not, do you mean to say that the Holy Spirit forces us to persevere? The three questions above will help us to move closer to understanding your view of OSAS - if its not too much of an inconvenience I would appreciate a sincere reply to each.I wasnt trying to be a “wise guy” with the “Yes or No” requests - its necessary to speak in the affirmative or negative in addition to offering justification for our posititions.Blessings

The Holy Spirit *leads us *to situations that require perseverance. I believe that we grow from these situations, for God works out all things for the good. Does the Holy Spirit *force or require *us to persevere? No. Following God’s lead through His Holy Spirit gives us an opportunity to grow. And our growth in faith through perseverance, though not a condition necessary for salvation, is pleasing to God.

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

In Christ Jesus,

M33

 

[Maranatha33]

Hi again m33. If I may interject. James was not suggesting this teaching from Proverbs wasn’t applicable. Indeed, like you affirm, this teaching is not abolished. It still applies to us today, but between the span of time from Proverbs to the 21st Century, we had the Incarnation of God, and one of His intentions (besides His ultimate sacrifice) was to leave us His Church, of which He appointed leaders. Leaning on The Church is NOT leaning on our own understanding, rather it is fully leaning on Christ.

Hi SteveGC!

It is really good to “talk” again. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding from James’ comment. I missed that one by a mile! I fully understand that the Roman Catholic church claims the authority that was given by Jesus to His apostles. Though I don’t personally agree, I respect the fact that this is RC doctrine, and is extremely important.

Yes, the apostles always identified Christ as the ultimate authority, which He certainly is. But that still didn’t keep them from teaching the masses with authority themselves. Christ shared this authority because He knew He could not remain on earth (which they didn’t really understand, but later did - as we do today). Christ knew that people must be LED unto Himself in His absence. He also knew that people are not led by reading…but by hearing. Hearing is human on human. Not human on book.

Nothing about this changed when the apostles themselves died, because as Scripture attests, they ensured the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift of infallible teaching of faith and morals) was passed on to younger, worthy disciples, through ordination (the laying on of hands). The sinful nature of apostles, or of future popes (which you addressed) are not significant to the gift of infallibility. You have to be careful not to confuse impeccability (which is not a gift from the Holy Spirit to the leaders of the Church), with infallibility (the authentic gift given to them). No corrupt Pope has ever been successful at reversing any teaching of the Deposit of Faith. Not a single one of them. It’s a testament to the promise of Christ.

This is by far, the BEST explanation of church infallibility I have ever heard! I was all ready to disagree, but I can not until I carefully consider, research, and pray about it. Thank you for a perspective I had never heard! It will cause me to grow, and that is always a good thing.

They are a part of it, for salvation is not a one-time event.

I would like to address your obvious typo, you need to remove the word “not”!

Good to share with you again. God Bless.

It is good to share with you again, as well.
Impressive post.

In Christ Jesus,

m33

 

[SteveGC]

Hi SteveGC! It is really good to “talk” again. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding from James’ comment. I missed that one by a mile! I fully understand that the Roman Catholic church claims the authority that was given by Jesus to His apostles. Though I don’t personally agree, I respect the fact that this is RC doctrine, and is extremely important.

Yes. And I was certain you didn’t agree, but should atleast understand where James was coming from. He would’ve cleared it up soon enough for you, but although I don’t know him personally, I know his discussion style, and if you stick with him for awhile, you’ll end up learning a tremendous amount.

This is by far, the BEST explanation of church infallibility I have ever heard! I was all ready to disagree, but I can not until I carefully consider, research, and pray about it. Thank you for a perspective I had never heard! It will cause me to grow, and that is always a good thing.

My pleasure. I cannot take much credit for the explanation, for although it is my unique wording, the knowledge of it comes from the Church, apologists, and the very knowledgeable and talented Catholics on this site. I would also recommend going to the main page of this site, and putting “infallibility” in the search engine, and going from there.

I would like to address your obvious typo, you need to remove the word “not”!

touché :knight2: I suppose we’ll eventually get to that debate as well.

God’s Blessings to you

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Of course. If you have been baptized and have not committed an unrepented mortal sin.

As for the subject of the thread:

Eternal Security Refuted from Scripture

Matthew 24:13
“He who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matthew 25:31-46
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Romans 11:22
“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off”

Hebrews 10:26-29
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20-21
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Assurance of Salvation Refuted from Scripture

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.

randy, do you think that you will ever live a sinless life?