true statement and why do you think?
**Yes, this is true and we don’t know ourselves whether or not we’ll persevere to the end in relying on God. So while we may be called, we can’t have 100% certainty that we’re chosen-only He knows.
Hi M33-
What you need to explain Jerry is why God desires all to be saved and yet doesnt will it.
Another way of looking at this Jerry is that man’s choice of rejecting God obviates God’s desire for all to be saved. Our choices have real, eternal consequences. We simply don’t know with absolute certainty that we will never choose self over God. We can be very sure, but we cannot know with absolute certainty because our knowledge is limited by time, and nowhere in Scripture are our individual names mentioned regarding our salvation.
This is the crux of the whole matter of life and everything. It is not God’s will nor His nature to be a dictator - not even a benevolent dictator. He does not want to force His Will on all His creatures but rather wants us to co-participate with Him and come to a like mind through free assent of will. He desires that we each put our powerful gift of freewill to its highest and best use. And that best use is for each of us to creatively apply our freedoms through our own personal expressions of love of God in our acts and deeds and in how we choose to order our lives. He has already put those best desires for works and acts into our heart - we just need to listen to our hearts.
what some don’t understand it is God who holds us not us who hold on, we need to put all trust in Him. Jesus said, “No one can take them out of my hand.”
Lets try again…
You have yet to reconcile how it is that God wishes all to be saved and yet not all are saved Jerry. Apparently they are not “taken” out of God’s hand, but remove themselves. In addition, you haven’t quite demonstrated that this verse applies to all Christians. Scripture specifically tells us that “I have lost none of those have given me” is a reference to the Apostles:
Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.
if you will to leave Him then you are not one of His to begin with and you misunderstand what God’s will is for your life.
because all don’t answer His call that is why all are not saved and some think they are saved by thinking they have do certain things in life. but as far fetched this might seem to some of you, and like the old cliche, ‘this is too good to be true’, Jesus died for your sins and today we celebrate His victory over death! just believe and the rest will fall into place don’t depend on what you can do depend on what He has already done for you.
We CAN leave Him once we profess Him, Jerry. We most certainly can, and sadly, many do. God is not so naive to think that a one time profession is enough for Him to acknowledge that you are sincere unto death, and fit for eternal life in the Kingdom. You’ve got to hold onto it, and make it manifest through your ENTIRE life, Jerry. God certainly sends His Spirit to make you a new creation, but that new creation has not immediately reached it’s full development, but rather it has gained the potential to now reach it, whereas before your faith, you had not this potential. This is what we celebrate today, the pathway granted unto us for salvation…NOT salvation itself. We must WALK down the narrow pathway. We’re not walking down the narrow path BEFORE our profession of faith…but AFTER. Faith allows us to SEE and begin to walk down the proper pathway. Walking down this pathway, however, is not a sign of salvation, it is a sign of potential salvation. You must reach the end of the pathway first. This end corresponds to our natural death. How we respond to God between our profession of faith and our natural end determines our salvation. God just makes it possible with our profession, not automatic. Free will must always remain for True Love to be possible.
Jerry, this is just double speak. Listen, the truth of the matter is you subscribe to Christ and the apostles a doctrine that WAS NEVER TAUGHT. You can go hunting into the bible and cherry pick any verses you want and make a case for doing most anything you want to do or believe – such is the case with Protestants who started the whole sola scriptura, sola fide, OSAS and every other thing we have today. The truth is if you do not confess your grave post baptism sins with perfect contrition or to an apostolic priest and repent each and every time you gravely sin you are still in your mortal sins and are at high risk of going to hell. It’s that simple Jerry.
While I appreciate your answer here you have, once again, sort of ignored many of my points in your answer. Let me summarize our conversation in this thread in the hope that you might actually address some of the critical points.
And I went on to point out to you that God loves all of his creation, not just Christians. And I provided Scripture to support that claim. Namely “God is love” – its his nature – and the reality that “God proves his love in that WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS Christ died for us”. This last verse, in particular, clearly demonstrates that before any Christians existed God loved us. This reality that God loves all mankind – not merely Christians - refutes your contention that: OSAS is valid because “nothing can separate us from the love of God”.
In addition to reiterating that God loves us whether we are Christian or not, this, clearly means that a man can choose to reject God’s will for his life and in making this choice cancel out the salvation that is God’s will for him. To me that strongly argues against OSAS. I summarized these thoughts in post 69:
Jerry ISTM that you don’t actually believe in OSAS? If you did then you would never say any of the above! I am hopeful that perhaps, as I suggested very early, that you are confusing Assurance of Salvation and OSAS. I guess maybe I should just articulate the difference right now.
And, if I might add James, the gift of final perseverence is so much the gift of God, that the Council of Trent taught against Luther that, apart from some special revelation, we can never be sure of our salvation "with absolute and infallible certainty (Sess. vi., can. 16). As St. Paul tells us, “we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12), and although he says “Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ,” he adds: "I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (1 Cor. 9:27).