OSAS

[Jerry_Marino]

everyone wants to go to heaven, i have yet to meet someone who says that hell is where they want to spend eternity. so the age old question, how can i have eternal life?

can one be sure of salvation?

does one live on the edge of falling to either side of the line?

Jesus said the road would be narrow, so how does one know the road they are on is the one that leads to heaven?

**Luke 18:18 An official asked him this question, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 20
You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.’”

21 And he replied, “All of these I have observed from my youth.”

22 When Jesus heard this he said to him, “There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23 But when he heard this he became quite sad, for he was very rich.

24 Jesus looked at him (now sad) and said, “How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this said, “Then who can be saved?”

27 And he said, “What is impossible for human beings is possible for God.”

28 Then Peter said, “We have given up our possessions and followed you.”

29 He said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 who will not receive (back) an overabundant return in this present age and eternal life in the age to come.”**

 

[fhansen]

The reason it’s so hard for a rich man to enter heaven is because he’s attached to his wealth and material things-over and above God. We must make a choice for God at some point and He, being the Potter and all, can help arrange this so that even rich people can lose their sense of self-dependency and become humble enough to make this decision. It can have to do with becoming poor enough in spirit, as Jesus referred to in the Beatitudes, due to the circumstances life throws at us in combination with our own nature/character and ultimately the grace of the Almighty who can perfect us and make us worthy-according to His standard-prior to entrance into eternal life. This perfection is nothing other than to be totally sold out to Gods will, loving Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-IOW to fulfill the commandment to love. This is a process of conversion during which we can have a confidence that God is working in us to the end of our salvation but not 100% certainty.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

even at that could one be perfect while living in the flesh?

Matthew 19:21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

i agree with what you said of money but most people put emphasis on material possessions but i want to show is how we can be sure of our salvation.

you say, ''who can perfect us and make us worthy-according to His standard-prior to entrance into eternal life."

poor enough in spirit does not mean to be poor in wealth, there are plenty of people who are poor in wealth who still have that problem to covet. poor in spirit that you speak of in the beatitudes is humble in spirit, humility, like that of the Lord who humbled Himself.

so how can one be sure of salvation?

God does not want us to worry and in the Bible He tells us how we can be sure.

Look at what Jesus told His disciples v. 27 from Luke’s account from chapter 18: "What is impossible for human beings is possible for God."

for us to enter heaven or have eternal life it is impossible and like back then the question arises today, “who can be saved?”

but God makes it possible, this has been from the beginning when adam disobeyed God.
adam tried to cover up with fig leaves cause he was naked and what did God do to cover adam’s sin?

**Genesis 3:1 And the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.
**

adam tried to do right in covering his wrong but God is the one who covers the sins in our lives, He is the one makes it possible.

the man who asked the question of, what should he do to have eternal life, was under a false assurance. Jesus knows that we can’t keep the law but we think that the law is there so that if we keep or try to keep it we’ll earn or gain some kind of favor with God. this is a false assurance of how one can obtain salvation.

we first have to realize that salvation is from God not of ourselves.

we can be assured of eternal life:

John 5:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

God bless

 

[fhansen]

even at that could one be perfect while living in the flesh?

Rarely, from my understanding. Mary would be one example, however. This is why the doctrine of purgatory or final purification makes sense-and is a merciful way of dealing with those of us who’ve demonstrated a love for God in this life but aren’t yet perfected in that love. But we need to know that perfection is the goal. Otherwise we can end up like the virgins with no oil for their lamps.

poor enough in spirit does not mean to be poor in wealth, there are plenty of people who are poor in wealth who still have that problem to covet. poor in spirit that you speak of in the beatitudes is humble in spirit, humility, like that of the Lord who humbled Himself.

The point is that humility before God is the key and while poor people don’t necessarily have it, it’s even harder for a person who has the money to have a life of status and the feeling of self-sufficiency. But God can break the pride of even the rich man and help him to bow his knee.

so how can one be sure of salvation?

God does not want us to worry and in the Bible He tells us how we can be sure.

Look at what Jesus told His disciples v. 27 from Luke’s account from chapter 18: "What is impossible for human beings is possible for God."

for us to enter heaven or have eternal life it is impossible and like back then the question arises today, “who can be saved?”

God wants us to have a healthy concern while retaining Hope-which in Catholic theology means a trust and confidence without arrogance-that we’ll inherit eternal life. So we have confidence **“that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus” **(Phil 1:6), while heeding the advice to **“work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” **(Phil 2:12-13). We’re aware from Matt 5 that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them. And in that same sermon He held us to an even higher standard; our hearts, themselves, must be pure, not merely our actions. We know we must “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Pet1:16 and Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48
Finally we find that no sinners will enter heaven from 1Cor:6 and Rev 21.

The bottom line is that no adulterers, murders, liars, gossipers, etc, etc can enter heaven and unite with God. Would we really want or expect it to be any other way? We wouldn’t even be capable of “seeing” God in His full glory, let alone loving Him as He deserves, if we’re still inordinately attached to sin-or things other than Him.

but God makes it possible, this has been from the beginning when adam disobeyed God.
adam tried to cover up with fig leaves cause he was naked and what did God do to cover adam’s sin?

Genesis 3:1 And the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.

adam tried to do right in covering his wrong but God is the one who covers the sins in our lives, He is the one makes it possible.

But Gods’ purpose has never been to leave us covered. If His purpose was merely to cover our sins rather than remove them completely, then why didn’t He do so immediately in the garden? Gods’ purpose by banning us from the tree of life and casting us into this world is to form us, with our cooperation, into beings who *will *to accept His will-IOW who are truly changed. Christianity is not simply about our first parents behaving badly and then God later deciding to sacrifice His son to save their bad descendants. Christianity is about man losing faith and trust in God without reason-all sin is considered to be outside of reason and against truth-and God working with man-the object of His love- to form them into the beings He’s always meant them to be-even if that meant His Son laying down His life to prove His love and trustworthiness-so that man could have a change of heart and begin to see that God, alone is worthy of their love-IOW to truly come to know the “value of God”-who really want to be with Him.

the man who asked the question of, what should he do to have eternal life, was under a false assurance. Jesus knows that we can’t keep the law but we think that the law is there so that if we keep or try to keep it we’ll earn or gain some kind of favor with God. this is a false assurance of how one can obtain salvation.

No, we must keep the law, but by the Spirit, not by the flesh. This is the New Covenant promise given to the prophet Jeremiah and quoted in Hebrews:

**“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.” **

we first have to realize that salvation is from God not of ourselves.

Yes

 

[Monica4316]

we can’t be sure of salvation. We only have the HOPE of salvation.

Salvation isn’t a “momentary” thing…

Phil. 2
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Phil. 3
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

I used to believe in OSAS when I was a Protestant…
I don’t anymore. It takes Bible verses out of context and ignores many other passages.

If you read the Gospels, Christ warns us many times about ‘falling away.’

We are born again in baptism and then it’s all about being in a state of grace. (repenting of sin) “those who persevere till the end shall be saved”

also, the Bible uses all 3 tenses when talking about salvation… the past, the present and the future.

We’ve been saved (from original sin) at baptism…
we are being saved
we have the hope of being saved.

Also, being not totally certain of your salvation does NOT mean that we worry…

I don’t worry at all, I trust in God, though I don’t believe in OSAS and don’t have “assurance of salvation”.

but it does mean taking sin and repentance seriously.

Just because salvation is “not of ourselves” does not mean that we have assurance of salvation! Cause though God’s grace is a gift from God, we still have to cooperate with His grace and persevere in it. This is not “earning salvation”… this is what Christ said: “those who love Me will obey My commands.”

God is the one who covers the sins in our lives

that is a Protestant idea… God does not “cover up” our sins. He washes them away.
We are not “covered” with Christ’s righteousness… rather, His righteousness becomes our own… we become transformed, by His merits.

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

God will not refuse any who come to Him.

John 6:37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

what one needs to remember is that salvation is from God, therefore if God is the source of salvation one needs to look at what He say on the matter. here in the above text Jesus is speaking specifically about eternal life.

v37 the father is the source and the son will not reject anyone who comes to Him.
v38 He gives the reason as to why He will not reject anyone: which is to do the Father’s will not His own.
v39 what is that will? that Jesus should not lose anything of what He (the Father) gave Him, but raise it on the last day.
v40 continues on explaining what the Father’s will is that all who see and believe in the Son may have eternal life and He’ll raise them on the last day.

this is not arrogance on my part or any other who believe in the assurance of salvation, we simply stand on the promise which is above.

one knows that salvation is not earned that it is a gift from God therefore if we did not do anything to earn salvation, what can one do to keep it?

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

in the old testament when the priest would offer the sacrifices they’d sprinkle the blood over the alter and God would see nothing but the blood. in exodus on that infamous night of the passover blood was put on the door frames so that when death came for the firstborn death would pass them over. my friends we enter the Holy week leading up to our Lord’s sacrifice and He is our passover and if His blood is on door frames of our hearts when we stand before God all He’ll see is the precious blood of Christ which covers all sins.

yes we are to work out our salvation but it does not say we are to work for our salvation. salvation is ours a gift from God and we are sinful by nature what paul is stating is to work out our salvation and how do we do this?

it is there in the following verse, for it is God who works in us. God is the one purifying us being watered down with His word.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk on wine, in which lies debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

friends one can be sure not by one’s merits but by God’s promises.

God bless you

 

[Our_Refuge]

one knows that salvation is not earned that it is a gift from God therefore if we did not do anything to earn salvation, what can one do to keep it?

Catholics agree that our salvation is a free gift from God. But we can lose that free gift if we refuse to cooperate with God given grace.
Jerry, if you do not keep the commandments, will you still be saved.? Yes or no.

 

[fhansen]

The bottom line is that for us to know the will of God we must hear from the church He established for that purpose, the Catholic Church, which received His Word from her inception and proceeded to transmit it to the world in oral and written form, her earliest members producing the New Testament. She alone holds the historical and spiritual right to proclaim her own story to the world, which she continues to do with greater clarity as she understands better the revelation entrusted to her. But she never has and never will teach OSAS.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Catholics agree that our salvation is a free gift from God. But we can lose that free gift if we refuse to cooperate with God given grace.
Jerry, if you do not keep the commandments, will you still be saved.? Yes or no.

read matthew 5:17-20

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven

 

[Jerry_Marino]

The bottom line is that for us to know the will of God we must hear from the church He established for that purpose, the Catholic Church, which received His Word from her inception and proceeded to transmit it to the world in oral and written form, her earliest members producing the New Testament. She alone holds the historical and spiritual right to proclaim her own story to the world, which she continues to do with greater clarity as she understands better the revelation entrusted to her. But she never has and never will teach OSAS.

of course not she can’t do that cause she is not God where i quote from is from the Bible where Jesus is speaking

God bless

 

[pia]

HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED

Past event (I have been saved)
Roms 8;24 For in hope we were saved
Eph2;5,8 By grace you have been saved through faith
2 Tim 1;9 He saved us, called us, acording to his grace
Tit3;5He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit

Present Process (I am being saved))
pHIL2;12 Workout your salvation with fear and trembling
1 Peter 1;9 As you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Future Event (I will be saved)
mt 10;22 He who endures to the end will be saved
mt 24;13 He who perserveres to the end will be saved
Mk 8;35 Whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15;11 We shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Rom5;9-10 since we are justified, we shall be saved
Rom13;11 Salvation is nearer now than first believed
1Cor3;15 He will be saved, but as vonly through fire
1Cor5;5Deliver man to satan so his spiriy may be saved
Heb9;28Jesus will appear a second time, to bring salvation

For me the following verse says it all Mt24;22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

 

[anon5216]

…
24 Jesus looked at him (now sad) and said, “How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”
…

I’ve never seen or heard about any camel in any time or place having passed through the eye of a needle … and this is supposed to be easier to accomplish than a rich person entering the kingdom of God?

I have, however, read that this phrase was botched in translation;
that the original referred to threading camel’s hair through the eye of a needle.
(Camel’s hair being very coarse and therefore quite difficult <> to actually thread through the eye of a needle).

Now that makes sense as an analogy.

As current translations write it, they may as well say “get rich - go directly to hell; do not pass go, do not get to heaven, do not experience eternal bliss”.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

i agree it is hard to get to heaven but how gracious is our heavenly Father who gave His only Son to die for us and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life! that’s love my friends but you know the saying, ‘it’s too good to be true.’ what i have found that most people don’t believe that by putting their faith in Christ is sufficient so they say we need to keep the commandments or do charity work.

in the Gospel of John we find plenty of evidence that one can be sure of their salvation:

John 1:12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, 13 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

if we accept Him, we are given the power to become children of God by believing in His name, born of God. it comes from God not by any other source. our place in God’s family is secure.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.

Jesus is speaking here and He says, ‘My sheep hear my voice,’ so those who hear and respond to Him follow Him. not just any sheep they have to be His sheep. this how great our God is, He gives us eternal life, notice that He did not say my sheep will work it out or earn it or you got to this so He gives eternal life with the promise of never perishing. no one can take us out of His hand this tells me that He is the one holding on to us not us to Him. if it were us holding on to Him we’d grow weak and let go then some of you would stand correct in saying we could lose our salvation.

my friends the Gospel is this the death and resurrection of Christ. He died for our sins and by the power of God was risen on the third day, do you believe?

He is heaven preparing a place for those who believe,(Edited)

God bless.

 

[Chesster]

Assurance of salvation is nothing but the sin of presumption and is contrary to the virtue of hope.

 

[VociMike]

read matthew 5:17-20

I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven

Well, the scribes and Pharisees weren’t very righteous, according to the Gospels.

But your arguments seem to be about whether we can “earn” heaven, which as Catholics we certainly don’t believe we can. But that’s a different discussion from OSAS.

BTW, do you believe that a baby, who has committed no personal sin, will go to heaven if it dies? If so, then is that baby not saved, and if saved as a baby, is that person not always saved according to OSAS? So is not every human being saved at (or before) birth?

 

[VociMike]

we can be assured of eternal life:

John 5:24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

But what assurance do you have that you will continue to believe?

This man once believed, but now he most adamantly does not believe, and he spends his life calling on others not to believe. Is he saved because of his former belief? Was he never saved to begin with?

 

[ziapueblo]

Scripture, in a sense, promises salvation to those who want it bad enough. We are to not only call on the Lord, we must also do His will. We are to practice an obedience of faith which includes hope and love.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

But what assurance do you have that you will continue to believe?

This man once believed, but now he most adamantly does not believe, and he spends his life calling on others not to believe. Is he saved because of his former belief? Was he never saved to begin with?

good question, just cause someone says the believe doesn’t make them a ‘true’ believer, they would fall under the category of apostasy.

what did Jesus say about the seed that fell onto the ground?

Matthew 13:4 And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep, 6 and when the sun rose it was scorched, and it withered for lack of roots. 7 Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it. 8 But some seed fell on rich soil, and produced fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.

Since in Palestine sowing often preceded ploughing, much of the seed is scattered on ground that is unsuitable. Yet while much is wasted, the seed that falls on good ground bears fruit in extraordinarily large measure. The point of the parable is that, in spite of some failure because of opposition and indifference, the message of Jesus about the coming of the kingdom will have enormous success.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Not really of our number: the apostate teachers only proved their lack of faith by leaving the community.

it easy for someone to say that they are a christian but that doesn’t mean that they are. a true christian will bear fruit in keeping with repentance and he will be known by his fruits.

there are many verses to your question, assurance of salvation is a promise of God to those who are ‘true believers’, you might ask who are true believers?

the fruit of the Spirit bears witness as to their conversion.

Christians have peace with God:

1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance, 4 and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.

• Popular piety frequently construed reverses and troubles as punishment for sin; cf John 9:2. Paul therefore assures believers that God’s justifying action in Jesus Christ is a declaration of peace. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ displays God’s initiative in certifying humanity for unimpeded access into the divine presence. Reconciliation is God’s gift of pardon to the entire human race. Through faith one benefits personally from this pardon or, in Paul’s term, is justified. The ultimate aim of God is to liberate believers from the pre-Christian self as described in Romans 1-3. Since this liberation will first find completion in the believer’s resurrection, salvation is described as future in Romans 5:10. Because this fullness of salvation belongs to the future it is called the Christian hope. Paul’s Greek term for hope does not, however, suggest a note of uncertainty, to the effect: “I wonder whether God really means it.” Rather, God’s promise in the gospel fills believers with expectation and anticipation for the climactic gift of unalloyed commitment in the Holy Spirit to the performance of the will of God. The persecutions that attend Christian commitment are to teach believers patience and to strengthen this hope, which will not disappoint them because the Holy Spirit dwells in their hearts and imbues them with God’s love (Romans 5:5).

2 We have peace: a number of manuscripts, versions, and church Fathers read “Let us have peace”; cf Romans 14:19.*

God tells us of His promises so that we don’t worry remember that a Christian puts his trust in God for salvation. going back to Jesus’ statement to His disciples, “What is impossible for man is possible for God.”

my friends by your comments you are looking at from a man’s point of view instead of God’s. believe my friends cause ‘without faith it is impossible to please God,’ Hebrews 11:6.

God bless

 

[Newbie2]

The title of this thread is a bit misleading; the discussion thus far has centered around assurance of salvation, but I’d like to add a bit on the “–AS” part.

Once we are saved, are we always saved?

No.

Otherwise, why would Apostasy be a sin? Why would Scripture warn us about Apostasy? It would be impossible if we are Always Saved. It’s not as if we suddenly lose our free will and lose the ability to turn away from God.

I would suggest, rather, that while we can be confident in our salvation, it is presumptious to assume it. Some would say that those who lose their faith never had it in the first place as an explanation for the coexistance of OSAS and Apostasy. But that would meant that one can be convinced of their salvation and be mistaken. Hmmmmm.

Doesn’t make much sense. I’m going with “confidence”, rather than “assurance”.

 

[elvisman]

i agree it is hard to get to heaven but how gracious is our heavenly Father who gave His only Son to die for us and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life! that’s love my friends but you know the saying, ‘it’s too good to be true.’ what i have found that most people don’t believe that by putting their faith in Christ is sufficient so they say we need to keep the commandments or do charity work.

I’ve read many of your posts and have one question for you:
How is it "hard to get to heaven"?

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