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- Status
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SteveGC
Guest
Jerry,
What is a “Christian” to you?
If it is someone who “believes in Christ”, or “trusts in Christ”, or “has faith in Christ”, what does THAT mean to you?
I’m looking for a definition of the essence of being Christian…what it fully entails, according to you, and I’m wondering if you can phrase your response without actually using the words, or any form of the words, “belief”, “faith”, or “trust”?
Thanks.
R
rinnie
Guest
They can make you take things back to the store you didnt steal huh!
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Proof? LOL, why not et us be the judge of that my friend?
You are making yet another fallacy here. All of us are part of God’s plan – but that is not a plan that is fatalistic in the strange sense of Protestant double-predestiny. God’s Plan fully incorporates ALL of our own personal choices with the advantage of omniscent foreknowledge but not with prejudice to our individual choices. We can be certain that God has a specific objective end that is all part of Divine Providence and there is not one single thing anyone of us can do to adversely impact His Plan in the slightest.
But this does not mean that Judas we predestined to hell. Judas made his own personal choices (May God have mercy on his soul) to turn his back on Jesus and betray Him not because of fate but because he choose evil and then choose to despair over it. He worsened it by imagining his sins were greater than God’s mercy. This is a form of self-absorbed presumption (also hubris/pride) that is really no different than the same sin of presumption that you all in the “OSAS” crowd make in presuming upon God’s Mercy in the opposite sense that God must forgive us irrespective of an interior state of repentance or perfect contrition.
The thing you need to know from this exchange is that Judas was originally “saved” by his original call to grace and the sacramental baptism we presume he received from Christ (or another apostle previously baptised by Christ) and by being in close and daily association with Christ and His teachings. Judas is a PRIME example of a person losing one’s salvation - not only because he fell away and sinned – rather because he sinned and imagined that he was a such a grave sinner that God could not possibly forgive him and never repented (e.g. he imagined that his sin was bigger than Almighty God’s mercy). That my friend is classic despair and loss of faith in God’s saving power. Judas was even so foolish to imagine he could punish himself in a single temporal act of suicide to compensate for an eternal affront to God (2 eternal affronts actually - 1: ]betrayal of Jesus and 2: his despair). I suspect Judas now knows that offering himself up in death in compensation did not come close to the merits gained by Jesus’ sacrifice - but I digress here. The point is that Judas was saved but most likely lost his salvation - BY HIS OWN PERSONAL FAULTS AND CHOICE not because he was personally destined to hell by God but because God foresaw his choices and permitted it.
This fulfills prophecy but it does not mean that Judas was pre-destined by God to lose his salvation - it was Judas’ own choice to do evil and also his own choice not to repent but to despair at what he did. So concluding - this is a vivid case where we see that one who was chosen and who was at one time “saved” but who apparently lost his salvation (as best we know – but even this is not known with certainty).
You, me, others are all in God’s Plan. But that plan is known only to God (with a rare few exceptions where He reveals certain aspects to individuals in private revelation). It just so happens God knows already how you will choose to accept or reject Him. That is not to say that some are destined to hell but rather that God has already planned for your personal choices.
To those who would presume to know God’s mind and to have certain knowledge of their own salvation I suggest you listen to Paul’s words:
1 cor 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
James
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sodak
Guest
This is the core of the misunderstanding. This is a Catholic forum, one which we help others to understand our faith.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
james my friend, you are thus far the strongest in your catholic faith and yet you do not recognize commentary from within your own faith. like i told you guys on another thread the church in it’s beginning or even now teach different than what you all represent.
God bless you
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Pax
Guest
Jerry in Christ,
You have just made a big mistake concerning Judas and have walked into a scriptural buzz saw concerning him. I will in my next post demonstrate by non-Catholic definitions that Judas was saved, but then lost his salvation.
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Pax
Guest
The typical argument presented to me concerning Judas by non-Catholic Christians asserts that Judas was not a believer.
Let’s see what scripture says about Judas.
John 17:12 which says
And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas was one of those that** believed** at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18]. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 6:8-13, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13]. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.
Judas is even referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.
In Matthew 14 we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:
In Matthew 19:28 we also read this:
Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:
Jesus says:
cont. on next post:
Let’s see what scripture says about Judas.
John 17:12 which says
While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas was one of those that** believed** at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18]. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 6:8-13, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13]. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.
Judas is even referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.
In Matthew 14 we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:
Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he “became” a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
In Matthew 19:28 we also read this:
Obviously at that point in time, Judas was among the twelve and was going to be sitting on a throne with the rest of the twelve in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In the end that was not to be…Judas betrayed Jesus.
Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:
Jesus says:
This reference to the fulfillment of scripture leads us to Psalm 41:9 which says:
Judas is referred to as a bosom friend. Judas “had” equal standing with the apostles which he traded for thirty pieces of silver.
cont. on next post:
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Pax
Guest
cont. from prior post:
Once Judas betrayed Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.
Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that leads to death.
–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink. If this makes Judas a false believer, then every non-Catholic that does not believe that Jesus gives us his body as true food and his blood as true drink as Catholics do is also a “false believer.” If not, then Judas was just as much a true a believer as all non-Catholics that do not believe the words of Jesus concerning his body and blood as true food and true drink. You can’t have it both ways.
–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.
*** Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:
Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:
–Luke 22:1-6
Once Judas betrayed Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.
Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that leads to death.
–Scripture indicates that Judas was an apostle with all of the blessings and grace granted to them until the discourse on the bread of life at the end of John 6. Judas apparently didn’t believe that Jesus would give us his body and blood as true food and true drink. If this makes Judas a false believer, then every non-Catholic that does not believe that Jesus gives us his body as true food and his blood as true drink as Catholics do is also a “false believer.” If not, then Judas was just as much a true a believer as all non-Catholics that do not believe the words of Jesus concerning his body and blood as true food and true drink. You can’t have it both ways.
–After this Jesus and the disciples went to Jerusalem for the Passover.
*** Please note that scripture tells us in Luke 6:16 that:
Judas was not always a traitor and he was not always a son of perdition. He instead “became” a traitor and the son of perdition(i.e. a wicked man).
Chronologically scripture tells us when this happened:
–Luke 22:1-6
In Acts 1:24-25 when the Church prepared to choose a replacement for Judas Peter says the following:
Judas “turned aside” from that which was given him by God. Judas turned away from the gifts God gave to him through Jesus. Think about that…he turned away from the gift of salvation to go to his own place. This is exactly what each and everyone of us is “free” to do. OSAS is simply a false doctrine.
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Pax
Guest
Jerry in Christ,
Please note that Judas is not the only example in the NT of someone that was a believer that lost salvation. If you need more examples, I can give them to you.
Please note that Judas is not the only example in the NT of someone that was a believer that lost salvation. If you need more examples, I can give them to you.
P
Pax
Guest
This an erroneous assertion without proof or justification.
R
rinnie
Guest
This is a new one isn’t it Pax, usually we get accused because the teaching’s haven’t changed in 2000 years.
Sorry Jerry the teaching’s have never changed and never will. Not until Jesus comes back and changes them. Its not the the teaching’s of the church that have changed, It is what you think the teaching’s of the Church are…
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Pax!
I just wanted to tell you that I have read your commentary refuting the notion that “Judas was never saved” at least 4 times previously and I think this one is the best yet! Thank you for patiently putting your incredible talents to work in the service of our Lord and for sharing them with us…
J
JustaServant
Guest
The Dark Side of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’
“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Gen. 3:5 (KJV).
Malcolm Smith (a charismatic Episcopal priest) used to call the words of this verse, “ye shall be as gods”, ‘The Lie’. The idea being that wanting to be ‘like God’ is the foundation of Original Sin. And what could be more ‘being like a god’, than having the knowledge of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.
The ‘doctrine’ of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS), otherwise known as ‘eternal security’ was a teaching I found hard to abandon when I crossed the Tiber. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ Catholics shrink from such statements as they smack of the sin of presumption.
But this doctrine has a dark side. If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (those who repeated a sinners prayer), than I can also be sure who is going to Hell (those who have not). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell not only plays into the ‘Lie’ (using Malcolm’s language), it also plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
When some of the writings of Mother Teresa was made public, it revealed she had gone through (as St. John of the Cross did) a ‘dark night of the soul’.
Fundamentalists had a gleeful feeding frenzy. I remember one fundamentalist almost giddy with excitement: “See! This proves it! Mother Teresa is in Hell!!”. It is extremely important to fundamentalists that Mother Teresa be in Hell. If Mother Teresa is not burning in Hell, that would make their belief/doctrine false; hence she must be burning in Hell.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind is ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn’t have the “right beliefs.” Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to. Catholics are told (many times with glee) that it is ‘certain’ they are going to Hell.
It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.
The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): “There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell.” Jesus turned that around and said: “There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents.”
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’. Obviously Jesus did not.
“ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
The Lie.
“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Gen. 3:5 (KJV).
Malcolm Smith (a charismatic Episcopal priest) used to call the words of this verse, “ye shall be as gods”, ‘The Lie’. The idea being that wanting to be ‘like God’ is the foundation of Original Sin. And what could be more ‘being like a god’, than having the knowledge of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.
The ‘doctrine’ of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS), otherwise known as ‘eternal security’ was a teaching I found hard to abandon when I crossed the Tiber. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ Catholics shrink from such statements as they smack of the sin of presumption.
But this doctrine has a dark side. If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (those who repeated a sinners prayer), than I can also be sure who is going to Hell (those who have not). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell not only plays into the ‘Lie’ (using Malcolm’s language), it also plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
When some of the writings of Mother Teresa was made public, it revealed she had gone through (as St. John of the Cross did) a ‘dark night of the soul’.
Fundamentalists had a gleeful feeding frenzy. I remember one fundamentalist almost giddy with excitement: “See! This proves it! Mother Teresa is in Hell!!”. It is extremely important to fundamentalists that Mother Teresa be in Hell. If Mother Teresa is not burning in Hell, that would make their belief/doctrine false; hence she must be burning in Hell.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind is ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn’t have the “right beliefs.” Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to. Catholics are told (many times with glee) that it is ‘certain’ they are going to Hell.
It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.
The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): “There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell.” Jesus turned that around and said: “There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents.”
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’. Obviously Jesus did not.
“ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
The Lie.
J
JRKH
Guest
Justaservant,
Nice Post.
Glad that you stopped by.
Your viewpoint as a former fundamentalist minister should aid in the conversation.
Peace
James
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Pax
Guest
Phil,
Thanks for the kind words. This has been a work in progress with criticisms from those that disagree and suggestions from those that do.
God bless.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Well thanks for the nice comment about my faith being strong. It is strong but I am tested in it daily as all are. But I think a strong faith is a hallmark of Catholics since to remain a practising Catholic in this secular age is daily challenge as I see many people cave into the ditty of the day. This is the message that tells us: “eat, drink, be marry and all you can be, for life is short and tomorrow we all die” and “God doesn’t care about piousness and reverence and holiness – he just wants you to enjoy all the things of the earth he has given you and have fun”. So those who remain good practising Catholics are those who choose to reject the message of the world and I am in the company of future saints who are all inspirational in their own faith. All Catholics here have a strong faith.
I didn’t really understand your comment about The (Catholic) Church teaching differently from what we lay Catholic apologists teach. Could you elaborate?
BTW bible commentary found in certain Catholic bibles are not infallable proclamations and are usually given to highlight one particular sense of scripture and are not intended to be full and complete revelations. I like those comments and particularly like the versions that give a lot of cross references of other OT and NT scriptures that relate. But again, they are not the final and complete interpretation of scripture - just aids to the laity. The official teachings of the Catholic Church is found in the Catechism. There you will find a lot of footnotes to scripture, church council meetings, papal declarations, saints writings etc.
So it may be that you just don’t understand that official teaching is in the Catechism and in what we hear at the pulpit by the priest who is anointed and trained in the apostolic traditions to teach scripture.
If I have deviated from Church teaching trust me – my fellow Catholics will be quick to jump on me with correction.
James
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
you know james never have i stated that one should not repent nor confess what i speak of is that we as a believer have security, assurance of salvation by the promise of God who has called the lost onto salvation. i’ve given you scripture cherry picking them as you and others pick what you want to pick out of scripture, keeping the law does not save you these verses you have posted on here is for believers and i agree with the verses but these verses have nothing to do with salvation but rather the result of salvation otherwise one would be a hypocrite if not applying the word to their daily life.
here is the follow up of the verse you post from 1 John 3:
19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him 20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything. 21 Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God 22 and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. 24 Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.
*[19-24] Living a life of faith in Jesus and of Christian love assures us of abiding in God no matter what our feelings may at times tell us. Our obedience gives us confidence in prayer and trust in God’s judgment. This obedience includes our belief in Christ and love for one another.
[19b-20] This difficult passage may also be translated “we shall be at peace before him in whatever our hearts condemn, for . . .” or “and before God we shall convince our hearts, if our hearts condemn us, that God is greater than our hearts.”*
you all talk of keeping the commandments of God and here in verse 23 John tells us what commandment should be kept, believe in Christ and love one another. i believe and i am sure you and others believe as well and we He tells us how we know if we remain in Him, by the Holy Spirit that He gave us. that is how i know for sure that i am saved cause of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and how He pushes me to do things that i would not do on my own accord.
most of these commentaries are catholic by the way and you and others have disagreed but that is not the point my friend. the point is that one can know for sure by the witness of the Holy Spirit.
God bless.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
be perfect then
- Status