J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
God bless you
- Status
J
JRKH
Guest
Jerry,
I am sure that you will agree that this subject has been picked to death and I do not wish to prolong the debate unnecessarily but notice a couple of things in the post above that are worth noting.
In what you quote from John, and in what you say regarding your present circumstance, that of being right with the Lord, I would agree as does the Church. For certainly we can have a confidence/assurance, even a knowledge if you like, that we are saved because we are not in a state of mortal sin.
You also make the statement that, “He tells us how we know if we remain in Him, by the Holy Spirit that He gave us.” This also is a good and accurate statement. But do you note that by this very statement, “if we remain in Him”, you have completely undercut OSAS?
“If we remain in Him”, we will be saved. This is where the “present” state of assurance that you state so well in your post turns into the “Future” state of the unknown for we humans cannot know the future on this side of bodily death.
The trick for us as Christians is to string out this present moment of “knowledge” or assurance of salvation into a whole future of present moments so that each time we do an examination of conscience we can say that we do in fact reamin in Him. This also requires us to be constantly on our guard against temptations to the deadly sins of pride, avarice, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth, lest we find ourselves not, “remaining in Him”.
This then is the big problem of the issue with OSAS in my view. I removes or denies the need for that watchfulness. I can say that I am, at this moment, in a state of Grace, but unless I am vigilant, I could slip from that state and in some future, “present momnet” find myself NOT remaining in Him.
My wish for you is that ALL of your future “present moments” be salvic and that each time you examine your conscience you will find yourself still, “Remaining in Him.”
Peace
James
F
fhansen
Guest
Why wouldn’t you think God wants us perfect? To be perfect simply means to be the being He created us to be. The whole message of Christianity is that God wouldn’t create man in such a way that he couldn’t live up to His standards but His standards can’t be lived up to without grace-without Him. Man needs God and he must learn this fact which Adam & Eve missed-and which caused his separation from Him to begin with. Then he can turn back to God and be molded into a being He deems worthy of eternal life with Him. It’s not complicated.
J
JRKH
Guest
I had to reread my post that you quoted since it was written so long ago.
I am truly saddened that the above remark is the only thing you are taking away from it.
Peace
James
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
you are right that God can not keep us that we will be lost, cause the standard that Jesus set is too high; perfection.
how many of you guys or gals are parents?
to those who have children though your children at times will be disobedient to you won’t they still be your children or would you disown them?
if they are far from your standards, if they fall short of your expectations, would they not still be your children?
if your child decides to leave you with their inheritance (prodigal son), would they cease to be your children?
if your children were to say to you, ‘you are not my parents, i want nothing to do with you!’ would they cease to be your children?
would you not welcome your children back home once they’ve come to their senses?
while your children were away and news came to you that they were caught up in the drug scene wasting away on the brink of death, would you not go out and rescue them from harms way?
now, i believe that the answer would be a resounding yes! if so, then what makes you better than God?
so before you come back with some rebuttal that would be contrary to God’s character, i am speaking of children of God and only those who believe in Jesus Christ have the right to be called children of God.
there are some who may be under a false belief of their salvation which would not fall under a child of God. so if you are a believer, God will keep you, yes you might turn from Him in rebellion and He’ll let you live but you will be miserable cause the Holy Spirit will be nagging at you, convicting you. you won’t live to perfection of His standard but He will still take you in His arms just as you are cause of His love.
He wants you to believe in His Son and to love one another, there is an order here, believe and love. faith comes first and then through His Spirit which will indwell you upon belief will fill your heart with God’s love.
i don’t have to wait and see if i am saved my friends, i know that i am cause i’ve entrusted Him with my salvation. i don’t depend on what i can do or don’t for that matter, everyday i pray that He guide me and control me with His Spirit.
you don’t have to believe me but do research asking God for wisdom and understanding.
you are right i believe this and you don’t, bottom line believe in Christ.
what else can we talk about?
God bless.
how many of you guys or gals are parents?
to those who have children though your children at times will be disobedient to you won’t they still be your children or would you disown them?
if they are far from your standards, if they fall short of your expectations, would they not still be your children?
if your child decides to leave you with their inheritance (prodigal son), would they cease to be your children?
if your children were to say to you, ‘you are not my parents, i want nothing to do with you!’ would they cease to be your children?
would you not welcome your children back home once they’ve come to their senses?
while your children were away and news came to you that they were caught up in the drug scene wasting away on the brink of death, would you not go out and rescue them from harms way?
now, i believe that the answer would be a resounding yes! if so, then what makes you better than God?
so before you come back with some rebuttal that would be contrary to God’s character, i am speaking of children of God and only those who believe in Jesus Christ have the right to be called children of God.
there are some who may be under a false belief of their salvation which would not fall under a child of God. so if you are a believer, God will keep you, yes you might turn from Him in rebellion and He’ll let you live but you will be miserable cause the Holy Spirit will be nagging at you, convicting you. you won’t live to perfection of His standard but He will still take you in His arms just as you are cause of His love.
He wants you to believe in His Son and to love one another, there is an order here, believe and love. faith comes first and then through His Spirit which will indwell you upon belief will fill your heart with God’s love.
i don’t have to wait and see if i am saved my friends, i know that i am cause i’ve entrusted Him with my salvation. i don’t depend on what i can do or don’t for that matter, everyday i pray that He guide me and control me with His Spirit.
you don’t have to believe me but do research asking God for wisdom and understanding.
you are right i believe this and you don’t, bottom line believe in Christ.
what else can we talk about?
God bless.
F
fbl9
Guest
now what would happen if ,as a parent, one seeks out their wayward child and they say no i want to stay here,what then?
Yes my child may be disobiedent but he/she will be PUNISHED for that disobience.
And what is the wages of sin? Death…so no there is no such thig as osas.
And if one refuses the propmtings of the HS,till they die?They commit the unforgivable sin.
That’s one slick teaching ,that a person who sins grieviously, was not saved in the first place…This in it’s self tells everyone that there really is no "asssurance " of one being saved.
J
JRKH
Guest
fbl,
This is a very nice slice right to the heart of the matter.
God does indeed attempt to rescue us, but will not interfere with our free will to refuse that rescue. So if, as Jerry states, we as God’s Children (believers) fall away into a sinful life the Holy Spirit will indeed try to convict us in our hearts of our error. If we turn back to God, and repent in humility then there is great rejoicing in heaven. If we do not turn back then we will reap the reward for our choice to remain in sin.
Since we must BE children of God in order to fall away and refuse rescue, OSAS fails.
Peace
James
J
JustaServant
Guest
Thanks.Justaservant,
Nice Post.
Glad that you stopped by.
Your viewpoint as a former fundamentalist minister should aid in the conversation.
Peace
James
The heart of the matter is if I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven, than I can also be ‘sure’ who are not. What fundamentalists cannot face is the fallacy of a ‘surity’ that belongs only to God. Once someone accepts the notion OSAS, thier spiritual lives comes to a screeching halt. Spiritual growth is stunted at best, at worst the person falls into horrible sin.
J
JRKH
Guest
I tned to believe that Jerry is a quite sincere Christian just as we are.
The problem seems to be that we see Jerry as ignoring those places in the bible that undercut the notion of OSAS and Jerry sees us as ignoring, or rejecting those passages where God DOES give us assurance of salavation.
Of course we see Jerry’s position as being presumptuous and he sees ours as somehow rejecting the salvic promise.
The Truth, I am sure lies somewhere in between.
As I noted in an earlier post I can, after a good examination of conscience and finding no serious fault, say that I am saved with complete confidence. I can say this because, to the very best of my knowledge I have no serious sin for which has not been confessed and forgiven.
What I must not do is sin by pride or presumption; to assume that I cannot lose my salvation by some rebellious act against my God. This, as justaservant, points out can lead to disaster. That of feeling I can commit sin without the consequence of hell because All my sins, past present and future have been forgiven.
I do think that we, as catholics, can go overboard a bit on the “Don’t count your chickens…” viewpoint. When we leave confession, or even just perform a good examination of conscience and find no serious fault we can say with confidence, “I am Saved”. In other words if I were to die now, I would be saved for I am, to the best of my knowledge, currently in a state of Grace.
As for the Future, no one knows.
Jerry does not know if he is “Truly saved” for he does not know if something in the future might shake his faith to such extent as to destroy it.
I do not know if I will be able to persevere either in the face of whatever Cross God chooses to send to me.
We can only “know”, to the best of our Knowledge, and then only for the present moment.
Peace
James
The problem seems to be that we see Jerry as ignoring those places in the bible that undercut the notion of OSAS and Jerry sees us as ignoring, or rejecting those passages where God DOES give us assurance of salavation.
Of course we see Jerry’s position as being presumptuous and he sees ours as somehow rejecting the salvic promise.
The Truth, I am sure lies somewhere in between.
As I noted in an earlier post I can, after a good examination of conscience and finding no serious fault, say that I am saved with complete confidence. I can say this because, to the very best of my knowledge I have no serious sin for which has not been confessed and forgiven.
What I must not do is sin by pride or presumption; to assume that I cannot lose my salvation by some rebellious act against my God. This, as justaservant, points out can lead to disaster. That of feeling I can commit sin without the consequence of hell because All my sins, past present and future have been forgiven.
I do think that we, as catholics, can go overboard a bit on the “Don’t count your chickens…” viewpoint. When we leave confession, or even just perform a good examination of conscience and find no serious fault we can say with confidence, “I am Saved”. In other words if I were to die now, I would be saved for I am, to the best of my knowledge, currently in a state of Grace.
As for the Future, no one knows.
Jerry does not know if he is “Truly saved” for he does not know if something in the future might shake his faith to such extent as to destroy it.
I do not know if I will be able to persevere either in the face of whatever Cross God chooses to send to me.
We can only “know”, to the best of our Knowledge, and then only for the present moment.
Peace
James
R
rinnie
Guest
But see that’s what I can’t understand. You say you don’t depend on what you can or can’t do but God does. Why else did he put you here. And if you do or don’t do, does that not just prove who is here for God, and who is here for man?
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Absolutely agree. From my perspective it’s just an attempt to shirk any personal responsibility and to make it all “100% God’s problem and job” to get one to heaven. So sole fide now pragmatically becomes: *“Just believe in Jesus AND believe in the doctrinal theory that one can’t ever be estranged from Jesus by mere sin or anything one can do.” *
So once an OSAS believer deems himself “saved” (after sinner’s prayer?) and soon finds himself sinning again he must rationalize it away and accept one of the following as a corollary belief/attitude:
- “Sin no longer exists since as a believer I am not judged and can not do any wrong even if it might appear as sin to others” (Southern Baptist often have this warped idea)
- " Oh sweet Jesus! I know you wanted to teach me the lesson that I am at nature sinful to keep me from boasting in my own ability - thank you for letting me sin to teach me!" (Can you arrange to re-teach me that lesson again next Friday night with the same hot woman who is damned unless I can convert her?
) - "Hmm, maybe I was not previously saved afterall - but now that God showed me where my faith is weak I have now truly repented and really know that I am “Truly Saved”.
“face it sinner you are not destined to be one of the elect so have fun while you can or shop around for a new church with more godly preaching…”
- There is a 4th condition. These all sin but are just utterly blind to it in one way or another and admission is impossible since that would mean that OSAS is wrong – but that would be losing faith in Jesus and that’s impossible for “the elect”.
James
J
JustaServant
Guest
That’s it. Personal responsibility, a foreign word in our day and age. This is where the majority of evangelicals are at. Once I 'know 'I’m as ‘sure for Heaven as Jesus’, I sit on my laurels and pretty much do nothing. Good works? Why? I’m heading for Heaven. It stifles any good done on this earth the end has already been decided.
P
Philthy
Guest
S
SteveGC
Guest
Here’s the angle from which I think OSAS proponents (incl. Jerry) are coming from wrt this theology…
- They possess a strong conviction that it is a sign of utmost Christian humility and reverence to proclaim that God is so awesome, powerful and loving, that if a person arrives at a point in their life where they surrender themselves to Christ, confess themselves as sinners, repent of their past sins, and invite Christ into their heart as their personal Lord & Savior…then IT IS FINISHED RIGHT THEN AND THERE.
- Now…the bolded part above MUST BE AUTHENTIC, and not simply regurgitated or forced. It must be spoken from the heart. If it truly is, God has henceforth SAVED you. You can, from that moment until you die, feel 100% assured of your eternal destiny.
- Because the bolded part was authentic, when a OSAS believer hears arguments such as “well, what if you fall away sometime in the future?”…he has no problem saying that the bolded part above was obviously, then, NOT authentic. This is because the bolded part for him WAS authentic, and to say “someone else who falls away never was authentic to begin with” is easy because it is mere speculation about a hypothetical someone else. They own this argument because no one can be convinced of the heart of another, only their own heart.
- What about the need for repentence? Well, the OSAS believer will tell you that the authentic believer WILL ALWAYS grieve the Spirit, and thus repent. If they don’t grieve the Spirit, you’re back to the NON-authentic profession again. Again, easy for them to argue this, because they themselves grieve the Spirit right now in their lives when they sin.
- What about the need to obey God’s teachings? Well, there’s really only 2 teachings we must obey, they’ll say…Love God, love neighbor. Do this, and every other command you can muster up falls within those two. And do they obey? Well, of course they do, they’ll say. Absolutely. And if they don’t…they’ll grieve the Spirit, and repent. If they don’t do that, yep…back to the NON-authentic profession again. Simple argument for them once again, for they themselves are at a point in their life where they DO obey the commands of God (or repent for not doing so). Of course, this “doing” is not to be confused with works from their own efforts in response to grace, mind you. These are automated responses powered by the grace (indwelling) already within them. But, at the same time, it’s not against their will, for their will is forever aligned with God’s.
- As for the rest, such as the command to eat the Lord’s flesh, and drink His blood, be baptized with water, etc? Symbolic only, cherry-pickedly proven from Scripture.
P
Pax
Guest
Jerry in Christ,
Let’s see what we can learn from scriptures narrative on the prodigal son.
The story of the prodigal son pretty much says it all. The son left the household on his own accord. Upon coming to his senses he returns to his father’s household and confesses that he has sinned. Scripture then gives us the clear message about what has taken place. In Luke 15:22-24 it says:
“the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.”
Jesus is telling this parable about salvation. The son was a member of the household but “squandered his inheritance.” The son was “dead.” Upon returning in repentance to the household, the son is “alive again.”
This truth of wandering off in sin and then being restored is spoken of elsewhere in scripture as well. For instance in James 5:19-20 it says,
“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
I hope this helps.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
[17] Do not need a physician: this maxim of Jesus with its implied irony was uttered to silence his adversaries who objected that he ate with tax collectors and sinners (Mark 2:16). Because the scribes and Pharisees were self-righteous, they were not capable of responding to Jesus’ call to repentance and faith in the gospel. (Catholic commentary)
Mark 1:14 As he passed by, he saw Levi, son of Alphaeus, sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him. 15 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners sat with Jesus and his disciples; for there were many who followed him. 16 Some scribes who were Pharisees saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors and said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 Jesus heard this and said to them (that), "Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."
*No other road. The call goes forth, and is at once followed by the response of obedience. The response of the disciples is an act of obedience, not a confession of faith in Jesus. How could the call immediately evoke obedience? The story is a stumbling block for the natural reason, and it is not wonder that frantic attempts have been made to separate the two events. By hook or by crook a bridge must be found between them. Something must have happened in between, some psychological or historical event. Thus we get the stupid question: Surely the tax collector must have known Jesus before, and that previous acquaintance explains his readiness to here the Master’s call. Unfortunately our text is ruthlessly silent on this point, and in fact it regards the immediate sequence of call and response as a matter of crucial importance. It displays not the slightest interest in the psychological reasons for a man’s religious decisions. And why? For the simple reason that the cause behind the immediate following of call by response is Jesus Christ himself. It is Jesus who calls, and because it is Jesus, Levi follows at once.
This encounter is a testiomony to the absolute, direct and unaccountable authority of Jesus. There is no need of any preliminaries, and no other consequence but obedience to the call. Because Jesus is the Christ, he has the authority to call and to demand obedience to his word. Jesus summons men to follow him, not as teacher or a pattern of the good life, but as the Christ, the Son of God. In this short text Jesus Christ and his claim are proclaimed to men. Not a word of praise is given to the disciple for his decision for Christ. We are not expected to contemplated the disciple, but only him who calls, and his absolute authority. According to our text, there is no road to faith or discipleship, no other road - only obedience to the call of Jesus. (dietriech bonhoeffer)*
Luke 9:23 Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. 25 What profit is there for one to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit himself?
A true disciple takes up their cross and follows Christ. Answering the call to being a disciple takes more then just some verbal affirmation. It takes daily sacrifice and commitment. But when you follow Christ’s guidelines for discipleship, you will find that the end result is far better than you could ever have imagined. Here are three things a true disciple of Christ should do:
Now you might be thinking, “Wait a minute, this is what we’ve beens saying all along.”
These verses are not part of receiving salvation, rather the result of one’s salvation. Jesus calls and we respond.
God bless you.
Mark 1:14 As he passed by, he saw Levi, son of Alphaeus, sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him. 15 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners sat with Jesus and his disciples; for there were many who followed him. 16 Some scribes who were Pharisees saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors and said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 Jesus heard this and said to them (that), "Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."
*No other road. The call goes forth, and is at once followed by the response of obedience. The response of the disciples is an act of obedience, not a confession of faith in Jesus. How could the call immediately evoke obedience? The story is a stumbling block for the natural reason, and it is not wonder that frantic attempts have been made to separate the two events. By hook or by crook a bridge must be found between them. Something must have happened in between, some psychological or historical event. Thus we get the stupid question: Surely the tax collector must have known Jesus before, and that previous acquaintance explains his readiness to here the Master’s call. Unfortunately our text is ruthlessly silent on this point, and in fact it regards the immediate sequence of call and response as a matter of crucial importance. It displays not the slightest interest in the psychological reasons for a man’s religious decisions. And why? For the simple reason that the cause behind the immediate following of call by response is Jesus Christ himself. It is Jesus who calls, and because it is Jesus, Levi follows at once.
This encounter is a testiomony to the absolute, direct and unaccountable authority of Jesus. There is no need of any preliminaries, and no other consequence but obedience to the call. Because Jesus is the Christ, he has the authority to call and to demand obedience to his word. Jesus summons men to follow him, not as teacher or a pattern of the good life, but as the Christ, the Son of God. In this short text Jesus Christ and his claim are proclaimed to men. Not a word of praise is given to the disciple for his decision for Christ. We are not expected to contemplated the disciple, but only him who calls, and his absolute authority. According to our text, there is no road to faith or discipleship, no other road - only obedience to the call of Jesus. (dietriech bonhoeffer)*
Luke 9:23 Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. 25 What profit is there for one to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit himself?
A true disciple takes up their cross and follows Christ. Answering the call to being a disciple takes more then just some verbal affirmation. It takes daily sacrifice and commitment. But when you follow Christ’s guidelines for discipleship, you will find that the end result is far better than you could ever have imagined. Here are three things a true disciple of Christ should do:
- YOUR DESIRES MUST TAKE A BACKSEAT TO HIS DESIRES FOR YOUR LIFE. Being a disciple means recognizing that God’s plans for your life are ultimately better than your own. That may mean making some sacrifices in your life, such as spending more of your time in God’s Word than in the newspaper, volunteering your services for teaching children’s Sunday school, or putting off that vacation to work on a ministry project. Yet, in relinquishing your own plans, you will find yourself drawn closer to the Lord.
- YOU MUST TAKE UP YOUR CROSS DAILY. Jesus is not simply referring to a religious symbol. At this time in history, a cross symbolized the cruelest of deaths. Anyone seen carrying a cross was headed for a horrible death. Some have misunderstood this statement by Jesus to mean that your cross is your personal inconvenience or problem. In this passage, however, Jesus is talking about the act of dying to yourself. In essence, he wants you to lay yourself at his feet and say, “I want your will more than my own.” Once you have take up that cross, you will experience the abundant life that Jesus promised to those who follow him.
- YOU MUST LOSE YOURSELF TO SAVE YOURSELF. Verse 24 may sound like a contradiction when you first read it. Yet, if you truly want to find happiness and fulfillment, you must relinquish full control of your life to Jesus Christ. Paul wrote, “I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). Taking up the cross is no more a burden to the disciple than wings are to a bird, or sails are to a ship. A surrendered life holds the key to a fulfilling walk.
Now you might be thinking, “Wait a minute, this is what we’ve beens saying all along.”
These verses are not part of receiving salvation, rather the result of one’s salvation. Jesus calls and we respond.
God bless you.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Marino
2 Corinthians 1:21 But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; 22 he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
[21-22] The commercial terms gives us security, seal, first installment are here used analogously to refer to the process of initiation into the Christian life, perhaps specifically to baptism. The passage is clearly trinitarian. The Spirit is the first installment or “down payment” of the full messianic benefits that God guarantees to Christians.
i guess you guys don’t agree with this commentary, i already know you don’t agree with God’s word but what about this commentary. God gives us security, His seal, His Spirit that is what one receives upon believing in Christ.
The commentary taken with your editorial comments sure have a way of giving holy writ a forensic sort of slant that would suggest that we can purchase our way into heaven. They would make it seem that if we first do the work of stooping down to pick up that shiny penny of faith that good fortune has left us, then make a wish for heaven and then toss it into the baptismal font and dive in to fetch it back again we can be assured of more fortune to come and also be assured of getting the really big crackerjack prize of heaven – assuming we didn’t botch the wish to wish to be in the opposite place the baptised Catholics go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Marino
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.
[13] Sealed: by God, in baptism.
[14] First installment: down payment by God on full salvation.
do you all still ignore the fact that once you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession to the praise of His glory?
or maybe you all don’t believe and that is why you struggle in the assurance of salvation that comes from God.
Do you suggest here that the water of Catholic baptisms is not as efficaceous as the Protestant baptismal waters and that the word of God spoken in a Catholic Church must always fall on deaf ears? Can not God save Catholics too - even if they do those extra and unnecessary works and feed the hungry and cloth the poor etc.? Or do those works become a contradiction to belief in God too great for Him to overcome and make it impossible for God to save them from the hell that good works will land them in? God can save a terrible sinner but not a goody-two-shoes sinner who exceeds the requrements by lending a hand to help poor widows and orphans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Marino
John 6:27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal." 28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
Jesus tells us not to work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life which He will give us, God has set His seal on Him which is the same seal we receive upon believing. the people ask what are the works of God and His reply is to believe in the one He sent. believe in Christ.
these verses have been put on here before but you all are blind that you are stuck in working for your salvation. you have my best wishes on your task.
God bless
Indeed. This is why Catholics work to extend our hand to gain the Bread of Life and The Cup of Salvation and do as God commanded in John 6 to eat the Living Word of God and drink His blood so we wil have eternal life within us. Why don’t you do the same? Or are you afraid that chewing one’s food is a work that would condemn us to hell and make us blind to the truth?
Can’t God rescue even the blind believers?
James
did not know how to get all on here james but this is what you said, go here my friend:
usccb.org/nab/bible/
i love you guys but it is mutual i see
God bless
Originally Posted by Jerry Marino
2 Corinthians 1:21 But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; 22 he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
[21-22] The commercial terms gives us security, seal, first installment are here used analogously to refer to the process of initiation into the Christian life, perhaps specifically to baptism. The passage is clearly trinitarian. The Spirit is the first installment or “down payment” of the full messianic benefits that God guarantees to Christians.
i guess you guys don’t agree with this commentary, i already know you don’t agree with God’s word but what about this commentary. God gives us security, His seal, His Spirit that is what one receives upon believing in Christ.
The commentary taken with your editorial comments sure have a way of giving holy writ a forensic sort of slant that would suggest that we can purchase our way into heaven. They would make it seem that if we first do the work of stooping down to pick up that shiny penny of faith that good fortune has left us, then make a wish for heaven and then toss it into the baptismal font and dive in to fetch it back again we can be assured of more fortune to come and also be assured of getting the really big crackerjack prize of heaven – assuming we didn’t botch the wish to wish to be in the opposite place the baptised Catholics go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Marino
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.
[13] Sealed: by God, in baptism.
[14] First installment: down payment by God on full salvation.
do you all still ignore the fact that once you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession to the praise of His glory?
or maybe you all don’t believe and that is why you struggle in the assurance of salvation that comes from God.
Do you suggest here that the water of Catholic baptisms is not as efficaceous as the Protestant baptismal waters and that the word of God spoken in a Catholic Church must always fall on deaf ears? Can not God save Catholics too - even if they do those extra and unnecessary works and feed the hungry and cloth the poor etc.? Or do those works become a contradiction to belief in God too great for Him to overcome and make it impossible for God to save them from the hell that good works will land them in? God can save a terrible sinner but not a goody-two-shoes sinner who exceeds the requrements by lending a hand to help poor widows and orphans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Marino
John 6:27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal." 28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
Jesus tells us not to work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life which He will give us, God has set His seal on Him which is the same seal we receive upon believing. the people ask what are the works of God and His reply is to believe in the one He sent. believe in Christ.
these verses have been put on here before but you all are blind that you are stuck in working for your salvation. you have my best wishes on your task.
God bless
Indeed. This is why Catholics work to extend our hand to gain the Bread of Life and The Cup of Salvation and do as God commanded in John 6 to eat the Living Word of God and drink His blood so we wil have eternal life within us. Why don’t you do the same? Or are you afraid that chewing one’s food is a work that would condemn us to hell and make us blind to the truth?
Can’t God rescue even the blind believers?
James
did not know how to get all on here james but this is what you said, go here my friend:
usccb.org/nab/bible/
i love you guys but it is mutual i see
God bless
J
JustaServant
Guest
The foundation for many who accept OSAS is a fear of falling away. If salvation is a ‘one time “crisis” “event”’ that is in the past tense, and I believe I can never fall away because God said so (or putting words into God’s mouth) than I can never be convinced otherwise. To think otherwise is to doubt God.
IF HOWEVER, my entire foundation of salvation is incorrect, (a process, not a one-time event), than what the believer in OSAS is shaken.
This was the one area that I had to deal with before I crossed the Tiber. It is a clever decietful philosophy whose web is hard to be loose from.
When I gave up OSAS, a weight was lifted from my shoulders and I felt a joy that OSAS never brought me.
The foundation of OSAS is the view of salvation, and it cannot be easily dodged.
IF HOWEVER, my entire foundation of salvation is incorrect, (a process, not a one-time event), than what the believer in OSAS is shaken.
This was the one area that I had to deal with before I crossed the Tiber. It is a clever decietful philosophy whose web is hard to be loose from.
When I gave up OSAS, a weight was lifted from my shoulders and I felt a joy that OSAS never brought me.
The foundation of OSAS is the view of salvation, and it cannot be easily dodged.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
fear?
John 10:25 Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. 26 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.[d] No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”
here i go again cherry picking, putting words in God’s mouth. that’s just one of many. but taken your comment servant, it may apply to those who work for their salvation rather than working out their salvation.
you felt joy cause you felt as though you accomplish something by your efforts.
do you hear His voice?
do you follow Him?
He will give you eternal life and you won’t perish.
now of course if you are not a sheep you won’t listen to His voice.
i have fear my friend.
God bless you
John 10:25 Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. 26 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, 29 for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.[d] No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”
here i go again cherry picking, putting words in God’s mouth. that’s just one of many. but taken your comment servant, it may apply to those who work for their salvation rather than working out their salvation.
you felt joy cause you felt as though you accomplish something by your efforts.
do you hear His voice?
do you follow Him?
He will give you eternal life and you won’t perish.
now of course if you are not a sheep you won’t listen to His voice.
i have fear my friend.
God bless you
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Yes it is cherry picking scripture Jerry because you pick only a very few scripture verses that are taken out of the holistic ( e.g. “WHOLE”) context of the entire bible and the full apostolic tradition that on the surface seems to support this never before taught neo-Christian theory of salvation. This is parochialism and a naive read of scripture. The truth is there are literally 100’s of scripture verses that directly contradict any notion of OSAS being a valid teaching – not to mention that there is NOT ONE IOTA of historical evidence it was EVER taught before the Reformers invented it out of thin air.
Jerry why don’t you once and for all offer us a SINGLE historical writing or early church father that even remotely supports a concept of OSAS and you might get more respect here from Catholics. But you know you can’t because you KNOW in your heart it WAS NEVER TAUGHT BY ANYONE IN THE CHURCH until AFTER the Reformers broke away and fabricated it.
As for the scriptural context - notice that Jesus is speaking to people who had not heard His voice (e.g. ‘those NOT saved’). Now why do you suppose that Jesus even bothered to try to teach them what you claim is certainty of salvation if they do NOT hear His voice to begin with? This is where your logic utterly falls apart. This teaching is stated for OUR benefit (future believers) not for those who can’t hear Him and have already rejected Him. But this too is where certain flavors of the Calvinists sects make the error of inventing the error of double-predestiny – if one is not called then one is destined to damnation.
So let’s go ahead and broach predestiny now Jerry. In YOUR personal theology can a person not called hear Jesus voice? Can a person who is not called accidentally get caught up by the emotion of his friends and land into Jesus hands at a Protestant altar call, do the sinners prayer and never again be able to fall away?
Can a non-elect attain salvation through OSAS if he happens to be in the right place at the right time? 
How does God drum-out the non-elect who in spite of that sad fate manage to recite the sinners prayer and get perpetually saved by “just believing” in OSAS?
James
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