OSAS

[Pax]

Jerry in Christ,

Salvation is a topic that can be discussed at great length. A couple of things that always seem to get overlooked in the discussion of salvation are God’s purpose and the kingship of Jesus.

In Eph 6:12 scripture tells us that we are in a spiritual battle “against powers and principalities, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Our justification does not eliminate this battle. Instead, we become united with the King of kings who has come to destroy sin and death. By grace we will conquer Satan by the blood of the Lamb[Rev 12:11] and through obedience to our King. [see Rev 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21, & 21:7]

Paul says the same kind of thing in Romans 16:19-20 by stating: “For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.”

God’s purpose in sending Jesus is for the purpose of providing atonement and expiation for our sins, and for our redemption. This includes destroying sin and death. Paul says in Romans 8:29 that God’s purpose for us is ***“to be conformed to the image of his Son…” ***We are conformed to the image of Jesus by God’s grace. We are washed, sanctified, and justified[1 Cor 6:11]. This puts us in a relationship with our savior who is our Lord and King.

In Rom 15:12, Paul quotes Isaiah who says, “The root of Jesse shall come, he who rises to rule the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles hope.” The kingship of Jesus places us in a position of obedience and worship to him. The kingship of Jesus pits us against the ruler of this world’s present darkness. 2 Cor 5:14-17 says that “…the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised……Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.” Jesus’s kingship and our being a new creation in Christ **enable us by grace **to overcome Satan and sin.

God’s purpose is stated elegantly in Eph 1:3-11 where it says:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will…”

God’s purpose and will is not to merely give us a forensic declaration of righteoness. It is God’s will to actually regenerate us and makes us truly righteous through his grace which “conforms us to the image of his son.” God wants us to be holy and blameless before Him. We must be holy and blameless before our Lord and King for nothing unclean will enter heaven. We are members of the household and kingdom. As such we must by grace overcome the evil one. We must persevere and conquer.

Salvation by faith alone ignores the importance of both Christ’s kingship and God’s purposes. A forensic declaration of righteousness ignores Christ’s kingship, the regeneration of man, and the struggle against Satan. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone does not conform to scripture. Scripture directly denies the teaching in James 2:24 and the doctrine repeatedly fails to conform to the many important elements associated with salvation. In this example it fails to conform to Christ’s kingship and God purposeful intentions for the elect. Catholic doctrine on salvation properly integrates all of the elements necessary for salvation as illuminated by scripture.

I hope this begins to help you appreciate the Catholic position.

 

[jpy15026]

What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved
**

1. Ask for God’s help:** Rom. 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
   **
2. Believe in Jesus:** Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [Paul & Silas] replied, “Believe in Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
   **
3. Confess Jesus as your Lord:** Rom. 10:9 If you confess with mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
   **
4. Repent of your sins:** 2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.
   **
5. Be baptized:** Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that your sins may be forgiven. Mk. 16:16 (Jesus said) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
   **
6. Forgive those who sin against you:** Matt. 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
   **
7. Love God & love neighbor:** Luke 10:25-28 An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the law?” Jesus asked, “How do you read it?” He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied, “Do this and you will live.”
   **
8. Keep the Ten Commandments: **Mt. 19:17 [Jesus said], “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
   **
9. Receive Holy Communion:** John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
   **
10. Pursue holiness:** Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. James 1:21 Get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
    **
11. Do God’s will:** p Matt. 7:21 [Jesus said], “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Matt. 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
    **
12. Obey Christ:** Heb. 5:9 [Jesus is] the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be complete cut off.
    **
13. Do good works:** Rom. 2:6-7 [On the day of judgment] God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead…You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (also, Matt. 25:31-46)
    **
14. Share in Christ’s suffering:** Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
    **
15. Remain steadfast in the faith:** Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Rev. 2:10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    **
16. Die in a state of grace:** Heb. 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away,* to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again ad subjecting him to public disgrace. Note: To fall away, in the Greek language of the New Testament, expresses the idea of irrevocably turning one’s back on the gospel.
    .

 

[paul_c]

What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved
**

1. Ask for God’s help:** Rom. 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
   **
2. Believe in Jesus:** Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [Paul & Silas] replied, “Believe in Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
   **
3. Confess Jesus as your Lord:** Rom. 10:9 If you confess with mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
   **
4. Repent of your sins:** 2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.
   **
5. Be baptized:** Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that your sins may be forgiven. Mk. 16:16 (Jesus said) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
   **
6. Forgive those who sin against you:** Matt. 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
   **
7. Love God & love neighbor:** Luke 10:25-28 An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the law?” Jesus asked, “How do you read it?” He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied, “Do this and you will live.”
   **
8. Keep the Ten Commandments: **Mt. 19:17 [Jesus said], “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
   **
9. Receive Holy Communion:** John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
   **
10. Pursue holiness:** Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. James 1:21 Get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
    **
11. Do God’s will:** p Matt. 7:21 [Jesus said], “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Matt. 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
    **
12. Obey Christ:** Heb. 5:9 [Jesus is] the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be complete cut off.
    **
13. Do good works:** Rom. 2:6-7 [On the day of judgment] God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead…You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (also, Matt. 25:31-46)
    **
14. Share in Christ’s suffering:** Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
    **
15. Remain steadfast in the faith:** Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Rev. 2:10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    **
16. Die in a state of grace:** Heb. 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away,* to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again ad subjecting him to public disgrace. Note: To fall away, in the Greek language of the New Testament, expresses the idea of irrevocably turning one’s back on the gospel.
    .

nicely done… you might want to augment this with a section on confession if you do sin.

 

[CentralFLJames]

What The Bible Says You Must Do To Be Saved
**

1. Ask for God’s help:** Rom. 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
   **
2. Believe in Jesus:** Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [Paul & Silas] replied, “Believe in Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
   **
3. Confess Jesus as your Lord:** Rom. 10:9 If you confess with mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
   **
4. Repent of your sins:** 2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.
   **
5. Be baptized:** Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that your sins may be forgiven. Mk. 16:16 (Jesus said) Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
   **
6. Forgive those who sin against you:** Matt. 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
   **
7. Love God & love neighbor:** Luke 10:25-28 An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the law?” Jesus asked, “How do you read it?” He answered: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied, “Do this and you will live.”
   **
8. Keep the Ten Commandments: **Mt. 19:17 [Jesus said], “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
   **
9. Receive Holy Communion:** John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
   **
10. Pursue holiness:** Heb. 12:14 Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. James 1:21 Get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Rom. 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
    **
11. Do God’s will:** p Matt. 7:21 [Jesus said], “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” 1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Matt. 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.
    **
12. Obey Christ:** Heb. 5:9 [Jesus is] the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be complete cut off.
    **
13. Do good works:** Rom. 2:6-7 [On the day of judgment] God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action is dead…You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (also, Matt. 25:31-46)
    **
14. Share in Christ’s suffering:** Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
    **
15. Remain steadfast in the faith:** Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Rev. 2:10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    **
16. Die in a state of grace:** Heb. 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away,* to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again ad subjecting him to public disgrace. Note: To fall away, in the Greek language of the New Testament, expresses the idea of irrevocably turning one’s back on the gospel.
    .

Don’t forget the need to perform acts of Mercy.

#16 seems a bit harsh too. The Catholic Church teaches that anyone may repent for any sin no matter who grave up till the time of death. If may be the case that full penance is not possible and purgatory time is needed in such death-bed confessions but no one goes to hell who sincerely confesses their sins to a catholic priest - even if contrition is not perfect.

James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

** Once Saved **

2 Tim 4:7-8: "I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me…

*At the close of his life Paul could testify to the accomplishment of what Christ himself foretold concerning him at the time of his conversion, “I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name” (Acts 9:16).

When the world is judged at the parousia, all who have eagerly looked for the Lord’s appearing and have sought to live according to his teachings will be rewarded. The crown is a reference to the laurel wreath placed on the heads of victorious athletes and conquerors in war; cf 2 Tim 2:5; 1 Cor 9:25.*

talking about rewards here not salvation.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

**Luke 18:9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’

13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."**

God bless you all

 

[paul_c]

*At the close of his life Paul could testify to the accomplishment of what Christ himself foretold concerning him at the time of his conversion, “I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name” (Acts 9:16).

When the world is judged at the parousia, all who have eagerly looked for the Lord’s appearing and have sought to live according to his teachings will be rewarded. The crown is a reference to the laurel wreath placed on the heads of victorious athletes and conquerors in war; cf 2 Tim 2:5; 1 Cor 9:25.*

talking about rewards here not salvation.

What rewards are you talking about? Where did you get the concept that there are dfferent rewards for people in heaven? Isn’t being in the presence of God all the reward that there can be?

 

[paul_c]

**Luke 18:9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’

13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."**

God bless you all

I find it interesting that you would quote this. I take it that you are calling yourself humble and judging the rest of us as arrogant. You know, this cuts two ways.

I have often heard it said by Protestants that Catholics are arrogant because they believe that the Catholic Church provides the only path to heaven.

However, I will counter that it takes great humility to be a practicing Catholic, willing to subjugate ourselves to the will of God as taught by the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We are humble enough to understand that the church’s teaching and insight are superior to our own and are therefore willing to follow where it leads us: to Christ. We are also humble enough to confess our sins and beg for absolution.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Ok, Have you *been *saved, are you *being *saved, or will you be saved? Pick a verse and see? Not all. Jesus died to save us all, but it is not a done deal. God respects our free will too much. Because of that, even though Jesus died to save us all, we can still mess it up with one simple act of sin. I have been saved, I am still working out my salvation, and I hope to one day be saved. Ah, you say, what about eternal assurance of salvation? Matthew 7:21 not everyone saying Lord Lord will be saved.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.” (Acts 10:34)

“… God shows no personal favoritism to no man …” (Galatians 2:6)

“For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.” (Deuteronomy 10:17)

"And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work … " (1 Peter 1:17)

**1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, 18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb. **

what does ransomed mean to you?

Christians have received the redemption prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 52:3), through the blood (Jewish symbol of life) of the spotless lamb

yeah as Christians we will be judged but not for salvation but for our works; hence rewards. look what peter says, ‘conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,’ in other words act right in respect to God while we are in this world, no to gain salvation. the next verse tells us we were saved from our sinful ways. bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. there is nothing you or i can do Christ did it all my friend.

acts 2:37-38 peter preached the good news, the gospel of Christ and the people believed for faith comes by hearing so they believed and they ask what must we do? here is where it gets crossed by many: repent and be baptized for the remission (forgiveness) of sins was what peter answered.

baptism does not wash away the sins, what peter was say is turn from your sins and be baptized because your sin our forgiven by the blood shed on the cross for your sins, that was what peter preached and the believed.

look what Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.,

more verses on forgiveness of sins:

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

so if you have been redeemed through his blood don’t you think he will finish his work?

repent and trust in him alone, Christ that is.

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

I find it interesting that you would quote this. I take it that you are calling yourself humble and judging the rest of us as arrogant. You know, this cuts two ways.

I have often heard it said by Protestants that Catholics are arrogant because they believe that the Catholic Church provides the only path to heaven.

However, I will counter that it takes great humility to be a practicing Catholic, willing to subjugate ourselves to the will of God as taught by the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We are humble enough to understand that the church’s teaching and insight are superior to our own and are therefore willing to follow where it leads us: to Christ. We are also humble enough to confess our sins and beg for absolution.

no you are wrong to assume of my intention, just showing how one is justified without works.

God bless you

 

[SteveGC]

*At the close of his life Paul could testify to the accomplishment of what Christ himself foretold concerning him at the time of his conversion, “I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name” (Acts 9:16).

When the world is judged at the parousia, all who have eagerly looked for the Lord’s appearing and have sought to live according to his teachings will be rewarded. The crown is a reference to the laurel wreath placed on the heads of victorious athletes and conquerors in war; cf 2 Tim 2:5; 1 Cor 9:25.*

talking about rewards here not salvation.

I have heard this from some evangelical circles…that belief gives us salvation, and works give us varying degrees of reward in heaven. I often wonder, under this theology…what is the experience of eternal life for one who merely believes in Christ, but does nothing beyond that one-time profession of faith. Jerry, maybe you can offer a hypothesis of this.

Let’s say a 15 year old boy goes one summer to a Christian youth rally, and is moved to make a decision for Christ. He professes belief, repents of sin, and asks Christ to be his personal Lord and Savior. From that moment on, he does nothing else Christ-like…he lives a lackluster life, doesn’t attend church, sins on occasion, but doesn’t physically hurt or steal from anybody. Basically, he lives a crime-free life, but does the absolute minimum with regard to the acts of charity and mercy that God calls His people to do. This man continues to live this way until he’s 80, which is when he dies. Now, according to you Jerry, he is saved when he dies. What would you say heaven is like for him? Compare and contrast that to another believer who fills his entire life to the brim with good works as guided by the Spirit of God and teachings of Christ.

 

[jpy15026]

Matthew 25:31-46 (RSV)
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”**
.
**

 

[fhansen]

**Luke 18:9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 10 "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity–greedy, dishonest, adulterous–or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’

13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."**

God bless you all

But Catholics aren’t convinced of their own righteousness-that’s why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, try to stay vigilant, keeping oil for our lamps, investing the grace God has given us. Protestants, OTOH, proclaim that they’re already right before God. In Catholicism God ransoms us so that we may no longer be a slave to sin, conformed to this world, but be made pleasing to Him.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Rom 12:1-2

 

[SteveGC]

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.” (Acts 10:34)

he that fears Him,** and works righteousness**, is accepted. Works righteousness is an on-going action, Jerry. And it is “work”…work which gains for us acceptance. Do you not see the conditional acceptance this verse puts forth? Do you not see that our acceptance by God is not based solely on our faith?

“… God shows no personal favoritism to no man …” (Galatians 2:6)

Why do you think it was important for you to include this verse? Do you think Catholics regard some men as higher than God? Do you think the pope holds himself in a higher regard than others…or God Himself?

“For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.” (Deuteronomy 10:17)

Again, why include this? Do you think Catholics think that God is partial to them? or that He can be bought?

"And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work … " (1 Peter 1:17)

“judges” according to each one’s work. The use of the word “judges”, instead of “rewards” is critical here, I think, Jerry. It makes no sense to use the word “judges” if God is actually distributing rewards, and not determining who is saved. If I am a judge of a contest which can have multiple winners…I “judge” who loses vs. who wins, and I “reward” the winners with various prizes. I don’t “judge” the prizes for various winners…that verbiage makes zero sense. So, you see, the very use of the word “judges” here reflects that salvation is the topic, not rewards. If you look at a thesaurus, there is no reference to “reward” as a synonym of the word “judge”.

1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, 18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

what does ransomed mean to you?

That Christ paid the price for our sin, and hence opened the door of heaven to us, where once it was closed. Just because a door is open, does not mean all will walk through it.

yeah as Christians we will be judged but not for salvation but for our works; hence rewards.

No, you do not “judge” rewards. You “determine” rewards, or “administer” rewards…but you don’t “judge” them.

Look what peter says, ‘conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,’ in other words act right in respect to God while we are in this world, not to gain salvation.

You added the bolded part. It does not infer this anywhere.

the next verse tells us we were saved from our sinful ways.

No it doesn’t…it says Christ paid the price and opened the door. Salvation occurs when we walk through it, which only occurs when we die - IF we’ve “conducted ourselves with reverence during the time of our sojourning”

there is nothing you or i can do Christ did it all my friend.

There is nothing we can do to open the door, you’re right. That part is finished. There’s a whole lot left to do though. Namely, fight the good fight in our life…“keep the faith” as Paul said he did during his final days. Why “keep” faith, Jerry? Why does Paul say these words if he was always saved? Would not his faith always remain if he was?

acts 2:37-38 peter preached the good news, the gospel of Christ and the people believed for faith comes by hearing so they believed and they ask what must we do? here is where it gets crossed by many: repent and be baptized for the remission (forgiveness) of sins was what peter answered. baptism does not wash away the sins, what peter was say is turn from your sins and be baptized because your sin our forgiven by the blood shed on the cross for your sins, that was what peter preached and the believed.

So, why baptism at all? What if we skip that part? It was important for Peter to say. It was important for him to include baptism in the same breath as repentance. Why? Why not just repent?

look what Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

And so, are you “drinking from it”, Jerry? What does drink from it mean to you?

more verses on forgiveness of sins:

Can you point to anywhere in Scripture which clearly reveals that we are forgiven for** future** sins if we don’t repent of those future sins?

 

[JustaServant]

This is the song that doesn’t end,
yes it goes on and on my friend.
Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was,
and they’ll continue singing it forever just because…
This is the song that doesn’t end,
yes it goes on and on my friend.
Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was,
and they’ll continue singing it forever just because…

 

[Church_Militant]

Gospel
John 15:1-8

Jesus said to his disciples:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit,
and every one that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
Remain in me, as I remain in you.
Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own
unless it remains on the vine,
so neither can you unless you remain in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches.
Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit,
because without me you can do nothing.
Anyone who does not remain in me
will be thrown out like a branch and wither;
people will gather them and throw them into a fire
and they will be burned.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you,
ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
By this is my Father glorified,
that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.”

I think that this more than adequately refutes the error of OSAS. It’s clear and concise.

 

[jpy15026]

Jesus says to “remain in Him” eight times!
*
Remain* in me, as I remain in you.
Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own
unless it *remains on the vine,
so neither can you unless you remain *in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches.
Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit,
because without me you can do nothing.
Anyone who does not *remain *in me
will be thrown out like a branch and wither;
people will gather them and throw them into a fire
and they will be burned.
If you *remain in me and my words remain in you,
ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
By this is my Father glorified,
that you bear much fruit and become my disciples."
*
The big question is "What does it mean to “remain in me”

”Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood* remains* in me and I in him.”( John 6:56)
.

 

[SteveGC]

Thanks CM, for the very relevant Gospel reading today…as it does hit the heart of refuting OSAS.

And yes, jpy, one big question is indeed 'what does it mean to ‘remain in me’.

But I think the biggest thing here (in terms of OSAS) is this heavy admonishment to “remain in me” in light of verse 3 and verse 6…

*3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.”

6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, **he *is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

If anyone would read that with just an ounce of attention, they would clearly see that it is faithful Christians who are being admonished to “remain”, and it is clear that if they do not, they will be ‘thrown away’.

Jerry. Please tell us how you understand John 15: 1-11, and how it supports OSAS. Surely you wouldn’t suggest to us that this is talking about ‘rewards’ in heaven, would you? For in verse 6, is it not obvious that what is thrown away are people, not works?

Thanks.

 

[rinnie]

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.” (Acts 10:34)

“… God shows no personal favoritism to no man …” (Galatians 2:6)

“For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.” (Deuteronomy 10:17)

"And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work … " (1 Peter 1:17)

1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, 18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

what does ransomed mean to you?

Christians have received the redemption prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 52:3), through the blood (Jewish symbol of life) of the spotless lamb

yeah as Christians we will be judged but not for salvation but for our works; hence rewards. look what peter says, ‘conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,’ in other words act right in respect to God while we are in this world, no to gain salvation. the next verse tells us we were saved from our sinful ways. bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. there is nothing you or i can do Christ did it all my friend.

acts 2:37-38 peter preached the good news, the gospel of Christ and the people believed for faith comes by hearing so they believed and they ask what must we do? here is where it gets crossed by many: repent and be baptized for the remission (forgiveness) of sins was what peter answered.

baptism does not wash away the sins, what peter was say is turn from your sins and be baptized because your sin our forgiven by the blood shed on the cross for your sins, that was what peter preached and the believed.

look what Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.,

more verses on forgiveness of sins:

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

so if you have been redeemed through his blood don’t you think he will finish his work?

repent and trust in him alone, Christ that is.

God bless

Jerry what does obeying God and confessing our sins like he told us to show that we don’t trust God alone. If we didn’t trust God alone, and believe what he said, we would never confess ours sins like he told us to.

And what is baptism to your faith, if not to be cleansed from original sin, and reborn in the faith of Christ. What does Baptism mean to you and your Church? And are you saying by dying on the cross Christ did not cleanse us from original sin? I am really confused here.

 

[Lampo]

But Catholics aren’t convinced of their own righteousness-that’s why we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, try to stay vigilant, keeping oil for our lamps, investing the grace God has given us. Protestants, OTOH, proclaim that they’re already right before God. In Catholicism God ransoms us so that we may no longer be a slave to sin, conformed to this world, but be made pleasing to Him.

And as St. Paul said, “I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me.” - 1 Cor. 4:3-4