Our Church how to explain our faith to a protestant

[Gorgias]

I came to a better understanding of the idea of invincible ignorance as taught by the Church and how it pertains to this day and age. We used to think it was just someone who had no knowledge of the Catholic Church. I believe that it also applies to those whose background has so ingrained their beliefs into their minds that overcoming it on their own, regardless of who tries, or what materials they read, is impossible.

Exactly! That’s precisely what ‘invincible ignorance’ is!!!

 

[MonteRCMS]

One of the places where I worked, one of the people PUSHED me about the Catholic faith.

I had to study appropriate responses!!!

Out of that, I ended up getting to know Karl Keating … and his book … Catholicism and Fundamentalism!!!

And the Catholic Answers “tracts”.

 

[steve-b]

I once had a co-worker who was a fervent evangelical and somewhat fundamentalist protestant.

[snip for space]

Want to know what I learned? I came to a better understanding of the idea of invincible ignorance as taught by the Church and how it pertains to this day and age. We used to think it was just someone who had no knowledge of the Catholic Church. I believe that it also applies to those whose background has so ingrained their beliefs into their minds that overcoming it on their own, regardless of who tries, or what materials they read, is impossible.

May I suggest, what you described in that person does not appear to be invincible ignorance.

What is needed for ignorance to be invincible?

Subject is highly difficult to know and no matter the effort they can’t understand the subject matter
Evidence is scarce
Insufficient mental ability by the individual

Also, consider the following

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

Who is that speaking of? Who is it that is not responsible for what they do? The mentally challenged?

How is invincible ignorance defined?

Invincible ignorance presumes much effort has been made to know and understand a subject, but after much effort expended, they still can’t know or understand the subject

Invincible ignorance is not voluntary. It is involuntary. For example, Rejection of knowledge, is a voluntary act, and If one knows a teaching and the importance of a teaching, and rejects it, then one cannot claim Invincible Ignorance, for rejection of knowledge has become at that point willful and voluntary. It is not imputed as a sin if one fails to know what is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such things is called invincible, because it cannot be overcome by study. For this reason such ignorance, not being voluntary, since it is not in our power to be rid of it, is not a sin: OTOH, vincible ignorance is a sin, if it is about things one can know, and is bound to know, but refuses to investigate.

As to your question, Re: the Protestant,

Invincible ignorance can’t automatically be presumed. The Protestant, or any other non-Catholic in the case you describe, will be judged on their knowledge and actions consummate with the opportunities that are presented to him/her. It is not a light matter however, but a most undesirable position to be in - especially for those in more affluent countries where information has never been so ready and easy to access about the Catholic faith than it is today.

IOW

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[tafan2]

As to your question, Re: the Protestant,

Invincible ignorance can’t automatically be presumed. The Protestant, or any other non-Catholic in the case you describe, will be judged on their knowledge and actions consummate with the opportunities that are presented to him/her. It is not a light matter however, but a most undesirable position to be in - especially for those in more affluent countries where information has never been so ready and easy to access about the Catholic faith than it is today.

I had no question regarding my friend. I did not say it could be presumed, even in the case of my friend. I said that I learned that it is not as cut and dried as we have always thought. I agree with you it is involuntary. I simply believe that there are people, who because of their background, are faced with this situation, an involuntary ability to see the truth, eve when it is explicitly presented to them.

 

[phoage]

I have a friend who is Protestant. He led me from fallen away Catholic (tending toward agnosticism) back to the Church. It was the last thing he intended. He believes that Catholics have it almost right.

He has spent many years reading the Bible and has argued many points with pastors at the various churches he has gone to trying to find one that was right. When someone espouses a doctrine, he demands Biblical references. He says he has always received long dissertations with little or no biblical reference.

I sent him a tract " Pillar of Truth, Pillar of Fire" which explains the Catholic position on many topics we discussed and has copious references to scripture. He refused to read it.

He has decided what he believes and does not want to be further confused by facts. We are still friends but no longer have religious discussions.

Patrick
AMDG

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

As to your question, Re: the Protestant,

Invincible ignorance can’t automatically be presumed. The Protestant, or any other non-Catholic in the case you describe, will be judged on their knowledge and actions consummate with the opportunities that are presented to him/her. It is not a light matter however, but a most undesirable position to be in - especially for those in more affluent countries where information has never been so ready and easy to access about the Catholic faith than it is today.

I had no question regarding my friend. I did not say it could be presumed, even in the case of my friend. I said that I learned that it is not as cut and dried as we have always thought. I agree with you it is involuntary. I simply believe that there are people, who because of their background, are faced with this situation, an involuntary ability to see the truth, even when it is explicitly presented to them.

However, what you’re describing is not one’s involuntary ability to see truth. You’re describing one’s voluntary disagreement or even rejection of truth when it is explicitly presented…

 

[po18guy]

The Parable of the Sower
Lectio Matthew 13:18–23
Meditatio “… the seed sown …”

In today’s reading Jesus explains the parable of the sower, found in all
three Synoptic Gospels. Speaking to people who till the soil, Jesus uses
images familiar to his hearers. A sower goes out to plant seeds and
some of them yield a good crop, but others do not. It all depends on the
type of soil where the seeds fall.

Biblical scholars explain that in this parable the sower represents Christ,
and the seed is the word of God, or the preaching of the kingdom. The evil
one is Satan. The soil symbolizes the heart of each person with its
receptivity to the word. Some hearts will accept it, while others will
suffocate or even reject the word. Which kind of soil am I?

Some people do not respond to the preaching of the word. They make no effort
to understand and practice what they hear. The seed is plucked away and
does not yield any fruit. Am I this shallow soil?

Other individuals are easily won over when they hear the word. But when
problems come, or when they are persecuted because of their beliefs,
they close their hearts and the seed dies. Am I this hardened, rocky
soil?

Still others let themselves become so entwined with wealth, worldly
distractions, and the desire to make a name for themselves, that the
seed is suffocated. Am I this matted, entangled field?

But others hear the word and respond to it with all their hearts. They
joyfully accept the word and the challenges of God’s kingdom. The seed
produces an abundant harvest in their lives. Am I this moist, rich,
productive soil?

Oratio
“Lord Jesus, may the ground of my life be well tilled and prepared to receive
your word. I want to welcome you into a heart that is open, receptive,
loving. In this way, my life will bear a plentiful, bounteous harvest,
with your help, and for your glory.”

Contemplatio
I welcome your word in my heart.

• Daughters
  of St. Paul. (2011). Ordinary Grace Weeks 1–17: Daily Gospel
  Reflections. (M. G. Dateno & M. L. Trouvé, Eds.) (pp. 284–285).
  Boston, MA: Pauline Books & Media.

 

[tafan2]

No I am not discribing that. Assuming the truth was explicitly presented, I am saying that there are people who, due to their background, are unable to recognize it as the truth. The counter arguments are very well formed and very ingrained into their mind. Only the grace of the Holy Spirit will fix the problem.

 

[steve-b]

No I am not discribing that. Assuming the truth was explicitly presented, I am saying that there are people who, due to their background, are unable to recognize it as the truth. The counter arguments are very well formed and very ingrained into their mind. Only the grace of the Holy Spirit will fix the problem.

is your friend baptized?

Do you have an example of one of the counter arguments?

 

[tafan2]

Yes he is baptized. No, it’s been years and the details if the arguments, both mine and his, are not fresh in my memory. But there was no obstinate refusal on his part, that I remember clearly.

ETA, he grew up in an area with almost no Catholics, and a historically string anti Catholic bias. Another friend of mine from the same area once told me how he never met a Catholic until he was in college. As a kid, he remembered their Baptist preacher always talking about the evil Catholic Church and all the Catholics who would go to hell if they did not convert them. He remembered as a kid wondering who all those evil Catholics were and where to find them.

 

[po18guy]

Stealing an idea here. Tell him that Catholic theology does not predicate itself upon slamming other religions. It’s teachings are not negative, but positive. It presents itself and allows the individual to decide. How is “We’re not like those Catholics” any different from the Pharisee and the tax collector?

History is a primary point of evangelization, as no one can escape Church history if they seek it with their eyes opened.

 

[steve-b]

Yes he is baptized. No, it’s been years and the details if the arguments, both mine and his, are not fresh in my memory. But there was no obstinate refusal on his part, that I remember clearly.

ETA, he grew up in an area with almost no Catholics, and a historically string anti Catholic bias. Another friend of mine from the same area once told me how he never met a Catholic until he was in college. As a kid, he remembered their Baptist preacher always talking about the evil Catholic Church and all the Catholics who would go to hell if they did not convert them. He remembered as a kid wondering who all those evil Catholics were and where to find them.

Is this once co worker, still a friend or is this friendship long gone?

If still friends, and you continue to have these discussions, have you learned answers you can use to counter those arguments you heard?

 

[halogirl]

As a former Protestant ,now Catholic, I will tell you this - just keeping practicing your faith. Live it out and talk about how much it brings to you. That was what convinced me. And invite them to the mass. You won’t win any ‘arguments’ based around scripture. Explain what your faith means to you and ensure they know that you also believe in salvation thru grace

 

[tafan2]

A close friend who I have unfortunately not kept in touch with.

 

[steve-b]

A close friend who I have unfortunately not kept in touch with.

have you learned responses to the arguments they previously used