"Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

[Sean_O_L]

Thanks to Tantum Ergo for the correction:

Actually, Sean, it was during the “Our Father”, NOT the “sign of peace”, that Fort was accosted, and after the Our Father and BEFORE the Sign of Peace Fort was told by the woman not to DARE offer a sign of peace.

Fort was completely innocent of offense in this.

So you’re right with your second response, Fort shouldn’t worry and it was the woman who needs to “rethink” her words and actions.

As to netmil(name removed by moderator)’s quote from Karl Keating:

Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon

My wife and I will be celebrating our 45th Wedding Anniversary this coming September 24. In addition to the normal marital relations, we have been Table Tennis partners and opponents, and I have been my wife’s coach; we have been and are each other’s best friends, accompanying one another where-ever we go hand-in-hand – even through the doors of the Parish Church. However, in Church, our hands are kept to ourselves - save only for “The Sign of Peace.”

 

[Celia]

My parish is full of hand-holding Our Father people. I don’t like it. I never have…it just is too touchy-feely for me. I agree that the sign of peace is plenty. I usually just keep my hands together and either close my eyes or stare down at my hands and try to concentrate on the prayer. I’ve had a couple of funny looks from people next to me but no one has ever jabbed me or grabbed my hand or anything. If they did though I probably would be too chicken to pull away, I wouldn’t want to hurt their feelings, but…I mean, we’re not supposed to do it and I don’t see what purpose it serves. Guess I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

[TableServant]

CarolAnnSFO:

I’m wondering, did we even get the hand-holding thing from Vatican II? Or was it just something that somebody made up along the way?

As far as I can tell, and I haven’t done anything more than an informal study on the practice, it actually started in Unitarian “Churches”, and spread from there to Protestant denominations, and then to Catholic churches.

As to the GIRM updates (2000 study edition - the final copy is at my office in the rectory),

#152: At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest, with hands joined says the introduction to the Lord’s prayer. With hands outstreched, he then sings or says this prayer with the people.
#153: After the Lord’s Prayer is completed, the priest alone, with hands outstreched, says the embolism, Deliver us. At the end, the congregation makes the acclamation, For the kingdom.

With concelebrants:

#237 Next, with hands joined, the presiding celebrant introduces the Lord’s Prayer together with the other concelebrants who also extend their hands. He then says this prayer himself with the other concelebrants and the congregation.
#238 The embolism Deliver us… is said by the presiding celebrant alone, with hands outstretched. All the concelebrants with the congregation make the final acclamation For the kingdom.

There is no mention of the posture of the congregation. The “hands outstreched” in this instance means the orans position, with hands raised, palms out (pointing away and slightly forward). This is the posture of the priest celebrant and concelebrants.

The posture of the people should be a posture of prayer to the Lord, which would generally mean hands joined in front of the body, not the orans position, not holding hands with the person next to you. Holding hands itself is an admirable practice, but it is not the proper gesture at this time.

Refusing the sign of peace??? Then no, in good conscience, she should not come forward for communion. “First make peace with your brother…”.

However, I must also say that I would not recommend closing your eyes while singing or saying the Lord’s Prayer. We are a community of believers. We are gathered as the Body of Christ, worshiping the Lord. We are not alone in our private prayer, but are gathered together to pray. No, you should not be forced to hold someone’s hand, and they should be respectful of your observation of the appropriate gesture, but you, too, should be conscious of the communal aspects of the Mass. That doesn’t deserve a poke in the ribs, either, though.

 

[netmilsmom]

TableServant:

However, I must also say that I would not recommend closing your eyes while singing or saying the Lord’s Prayer. We are a community of believers. We are gathered as the Body of Christ, worshiping the Lord. We are not alone in our private prayer, but are gathered together to pray. No, you should not be forced to hold someone’s hand, and they should be respectful of your observation of the appropriate gesture, but you, too, should be conscious of the communal aspects of the Mass. That doesn’t deserve a poke in the ribs, either, though.

Spot on!
I love seeing visitors to our church who reach out to the person with hands folded, look around and drop his/her hands.
Sometimes I feel I am at a teaching parish.
Teaching people that it is alright NOT to hold hands, not to do the Orans and yet we are all very pious.

It’s funny how we teach our children not to talk to strangers but it’s okay to hold hands with a stranger sitting next to you. Something is not right.

 

[goldenautumnday]

dumspirospero:

…if we are going to turn the Mass into a protestant style worship service, then I don’t see why I had to leave the Baptists to spend a year in RCIA, so I could become Catholic…

The difference between a protestant worship service and a Catholic Mass is the Real Presence of the Lord. We can get caught up in to hold hands or not, but His Presence is the heart of Catholicism.

CCC1324: "The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."136 “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”

 

[goldenautumnday]

PJR:

I think it became popular because it was an attempt to build community. I don’t think anyone who wishes to hold your hand in Mass means to be offensive to you, and I don’t think it was intended to take away from Christ on the altar.

Well, said!

 

[jleary]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

So is it all about Christ or all about the person who wants to “share the love”. Where is the compassion for those who want to commune with Our Lord at this time?
In my last parish, we went from the Orans position to holding hands and raising them up. It started with a few and became the norm.
If someone wanted to “share the love” by giving you a big smootchie kiss, would that be okay too?
How about if we make the fellowship after Mass and concentrate on Our Lord.
Again, give me any other situation where we are told to hold hands for an extended length of time?

mom…you don’t undertstand my point…To “share the love” is really to share Christ, I don’t expect to convince you fully to accept my personal belief, however, that type of response to my reply is exactly what I am talking about. It isn’t about being forced to hold one anothers hand, its the reaction that’s given to those who attempt it…Eveything we do, everything we say has meaning, understanding where other people may be coming from is a giant step forward as Christians…You don’t have to accept it, I’m not asking you to, just be somewhat aware of other peoples positions…To use the smootchie kiss as an example is really just another visceral example of not understanding the point…And I don’t believe that anyone is being told to hold hands here…

 

[rlg94086]

As a convert in California, I’m uncomfortable not holding hands, because it is the norm here (and Colorado and Oregon). That’s not to say there are NO traditional parishes…just to preempt the naysayers, just that 95% of the parishes I’ve been to hold hands. Since I’ve learned it’s incorrect, I’m going to change. It shouldn’t be about comfort, but rather obedience. I believe in submitting, which is not very popular in our culture.

I know there are some who are reluctant to change, or who think it’s no big deal…If it was the norm in your town to high-five during the Sign of Peace, and you found out that wasn’t correct, wouldn’t you want to change your ways?

Pax,
Robert.

 

[netmilsmom]

jleary:

mom…you don’t undertstand my point…To “share the love” is really to share Christ, I don’t expect to convince you fully to accept my personal belief, however, that type of response to my reply is exactly what I am talking about. It isn’t about being forced to hold one anothers hand, its the reaction that’s given to those who attempt it…Eveything we do, everything we say has meaning, understanding where other people may be coming from is a giant step forward as Christians…You don’t have to accept it, I’m not asking you to, just be somewhat aware of other peoples positions…To use the smootchie kiss as an example is really just another visceral example of not understanding the point…And I don’t believe that anyone is being told to hold hands here…

Honestly friend,yours is a typical response of those who feel that the touchie feelie church is right.
It’s not about you, nor the person who is feeling Christ.

Your statement of, " I don’t expect to convince you fully to accept my personal belief." is elitist. In otherwords, You have the right view and I don’t have it in me to understand. Off your high horse my friend and understand another view is right as well.

Everything I do has a meaning too and my folding my hands and being Humble before the Lord is meaningful to me.
So why are you right and I am wrong?
Sorry but the Kumbaya person who “feels it” needs to take my way of “feeling Christ” into consideration as well.

Christ is right there on the Altar! If He stood there body and soul in front of you would you be looking to hold a stranger’s hand or focused on Him? I would be on my knees, face to the ground, unworthy to look his way, and you want to commune?

Respect everyone’s feelings.
Yes, smotchie kisses is appropriate. Wanting to hold my hand (because otherwise I am not being Christlike) is just as inappropriate to me as someone giving you a huge kiss on the lips.

How Christlike is it NOT to accept another person’s comfort level? In fact it is downright selfish in my opinion.
It’s not all about you.

 

[netmilsmom]

rlg94086:

I know there are some who are reluctant to change, or who think it’s no big deal…If it was the norm in your town to high-five during the Sign of Peace, and you found out that wasn’t correct, wouldn’t you want to change your ways?

Pax,
Robert.

God Bless you Robert. I am praying that Our new Pope will set the record straight about this.
What a wonderful analogy!
In my old parish we went from Orans to holding hands up in the air, in four years. High Fiving could be next there.
I found an ethnic parish which was much more conservative.

 

[ames61]

TableServant:

As to the GIRM updates (2000 study edition - the final copy is at my office in the rectory),

#152: At the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, the priest, with hands joined says the introduction to the Lord’s prayer. With hands outstreched, he then sings or says this prayer with the people.
#153: After the Lord’s Prayer is completed, the priest alone, with hands outstreched, says the embolism, Deliver us. At the end, the congregation makes the acclamation, For the kingdom.

With concelebrants:

#237 Next, with hands joined, the presiding celebrant introduces the Lord’s Prayer together with the other concelebrants who also extend their hands. He then says this prayer himself with the other concelebrants and the congregation.
#238 The embolism Deliver us… is said by the presiding celebrant alone, with hands outstretched. All the concelebrants with the congregation make the final acclamation For the kingdom.

CLARIFICATIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS OF
THE GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL
APPENDIX 2
QUERY 2: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: **The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. ** Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Not 11 (1975) 226.

This answer which is part of the GIRM touches somewhat on this. I would love to see the bishops enforce the rubrics. Has anyone been in a church which had been accustomed to holding hands and the priest announces that he’s discouraging this practice in the future? How was it handled? How did people react?

Amy

 

[PJR]

This answer which is part of the GIRM touches somewhat on this. I would love to see the bishops enforce the rubrics. Has anyone been in a church which had been accustomed to holding hands and the priest announces that he’s discouraging this practice in the future? How was it handled? How did people react?

Amy

Our new Bishop has instructed the priests to not hold hands on the altar. He is to use orans. However, the altar servers may or may not hold hands. I think we are going to be gradually led away from the practice of handholding. I don’t think anyone will have that much trouble with it. Our priest is a canon lawyer for the diocese and in close contact with the Bishop. We will be obedient and follow where our shepherd leads us.

Hopefully, our ‘errors’ will be corrected without the condemning tone present on this thread. We have a very reverent and quite conservative parish. None of us who were led astray by satan-and probably some protestant plants-will ever be able to atone for the damage done to be Body of Christ by holding our neighbor’s hand.

Now that I am aware how angry it makes others to appear welcoming, friendly and touchy feely, I will never get in anyone else’s sacred space again. God forgive me, I think I may have closed my eyes once too.

 

[OldRiteFan]

PJR:

I agree. Everything protestants do is not automatically wrong. And keep in mind, many practices that have been held in common for centuries have been thrown out in many FEC’s because it “appears too Catholic”. I think we should watch our prejudice.

If hand holding is incorrect. By all means we should not do it. But citing that protestants do it does not make it incorrect.

I think it became popular because it was an attempt to build community. I don’t think anyone who wishes to hold your hand in Mass means to be offensive to you, and I don’t think it was intended to take away from Christ on the altar.

If someone was put out and rude over being denied, and then refused the sign of peace, they were very wrong.

Several people have addressed that this is NOT (holding hands during the Our Father) in accordance with what was and is being taught by the Vatican:banghead: . Our dear departed Holy Father, John Paul the Great and our present Holy Father, Benedict XVI were present and very active in Vatican II (JP II actually was a writer of the Apostolic Constitution). No, all things that protestants do are not wrong, but a lot of misguided people felt that the way to “fix” what what “wrong” with the Catholic Church was to make it more like the protestant churchs:nope: . The Catholic Church is the one true faith and to approach the need to “fix” things by making more protestant is wrong and dangerous. This is exactly what John Paul the Great spent his entire pontificate trying to do (among scores of oter things), point the Church in the direction Vatican II really meant for the Church to go in:thumbsup: , not in the direction a few, however well meaning, but misguided people thought it should go in (and I suspect Benedict XVI will do the same:clapping: ) .

 

[Shinobu]

For starters I would like to say that in all my lifetime of attending Protestant Churches (all 24 years) I CAN NOT recall any time where we all held hands. NO we never danced in the aisles or held snakes and spoke in tongues. I think the interpretation some of you have of Protestants is sloppy and totally ignorant. It is very cruel to act as if Protestants are some crazy, backwater, hillbillies. There are all different types of Protestantism and you all should very well know this. Step into a Lutheran Church and you will see it is not far off from a Catholic Church. Heck they believe in the Real Presence.

Don’t be so quick to stick up your noses at others.

Also all this fuss about holding hands and shaking hands, why are some of you so bloody cold?? Is it so terrible to hold hands of a fellow human being? Did Jesus himself not say to love your neighbor? To deny the hand of another because you “don’t like it” puts you off as self-righteous. Think about how you make others feel and most importantly think about how you displease God at your apparent disgusts of your fellow man. How shameful! It is very sad that some of you are so pleased at your behavior of denying love to your neighbor.

 

[jleary]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Honestly friend,yours is a typical response of those who feel that the touchie feelie church is right.
It’s not about you, nor the person who is feeling Christ.

Your statement of, " I don’t expect to convince you fully to accept my personal belief." is elitist. In otherwords, You have the right view and I don’t have it in me to understand. Off your high horse my friend and understand another view is right as well.

Everything I do has a meaning too and my folding my hands and being Humble before the Lord is meaningful to me.
So why are you right and I am wrong?
Sorry but the Kumbaya person who “feels it” needs to take my way of “feeling Christ” into consideration as well.

Christ is right there on the Altar! If He stood there body and soul in front of you would you be looking to hold a stranger’s hand or focused on Him? I would be on my knees, face to the ground, unworthy to look his way, and you want to commune?

Respect everyone’s feelings.
Yes, smotchie kisses is appropriate. Wanting to hold my hand (because otherwise I am not being Christlike) is just as inappropriate to me as someone giving you a huge kiss on the lips.

How Christlike is it NOT to accept another person’s comfort level? In fact it is downright selfish in my opinion.
It’s not all about you.

WOW!! I guess there is not a way to have a point/counterpoint discussion here without getting personal…All that I ask is that we remain open to all not just those who may have the same view as ourselves…I thought of this discussion this morning during the the Liturgy of the Hours, Office of Readings, when I read the following…'Lord God, our strength and salvation, put in us the flame of your love and make our love for you grow to a perfect love that reaches to our neighbor". Please reflect before responding…I love you mom!!!

 

[jleary]

Shinobu:

For starters I would like to say that in all my lifetime of attending Protestant Churches (all 24 years) I CAN NOT recall any time where we all held hands. NO we never danced in the aisles or held snakes and spoke in tongues. I think the interpretation some of you have of Protestants is sloppy and totally ignorant. It is very cruel to act as if Protestants are some crazy, backwater, hillbillies. There are all different types of Protestantism and you all should very well know this. Step into a Lutheran Church and you will see it is not far off from a Catholic Church. Heck they believe in the Real Presence.

Don’t be so quick to stick up your noses at others.

Also all this fuss about holding hands and shaking hands, why are some of you so bloody cold?? Is it so terrible to hold hands of a fellow human being? Did Jesus himself not say to love your neighbor? To deny the hand of another because you “don’t like it” puts you off as self-righteous. Think about how you make others feel and most importantly think about how you displease God at your apparent disgusts of your fellow man. How shameful! It is very sad that some of you are so pleased at your behavior of denying love to your neighbor.

Amen Shinobu!!

 

[jleary]

Amen Shinobu!!

Shinobu:

For starters I would like to say that in all my lifetime of attending Protestant Churches (all 24 years) I CAN NOT recall any time where we all held hands. NO we never danced in the aisles or held snakes and spoke in tongues. I think the interpretation some of you have of Protestants is sloppy and totally ignorant. It is very cruel to act as if Protestants are some crazy, backwater, hillbillies. There are all different types of Protestantism and you all should very well know this. Step into a Lutheran Church and you will see it is not far off from a Catholic Church. Heck they believe in the Real Presence.

Don’t be so quick to stick up your noses at others.

Also all this fuss about holding hands and shaking hands, why are some of you so bloody cold?? Is it so terrible to hold hands of a fellow human being? Did Jesus himself not say to love your neighbor? To deny the hand of another because you “don’t like it” puts you off as self-righteous. Think about how you make others feel and most importantly think about how you displease God at your apparent disgusts of your fellow man. How shameful! It is very sad that some of you are so pleased at your behavior of denying love to your neighbor.

Amen Shinobu!!!

 

[Fortiterinre]

I have never started a thread with this many responses before, thank you all! My biggest concern is that these kinds of additions to the liturgy do have pretty big effects, not the least of which is a growing need to legislate and stage manage every last moment of Mass. The communal nature of the Our Father is expressed in: 1.) the pronoun “Our,” and 2.) saying it out loud together. I am very concerned when we are detailing down to, “Don’t say it with your eyes closed, it’s communal.” There are lots of moments during the Mass when I close my eyes, sometimes just to concentrate. It doesn’t mean I am not participating. The communal nature of the celebration is too often emphasized over the transcendent nature of prayer and worship, and we need both. The nave of a Catholic Church should not be the one place on earth where we are hesitant to pray for fear of offending our neighbor!

 

[netmilsmom]

jleary:

WOW!! I guess there is not a way to have a point/counterpoint discussion here without getting personal…All that I ask is that we remain open to all not just those who may have the same view as ourselves…I thought of this discussion this morning during the the Liturgy of the Hours, Office of Readings, when I read the following…'Lord God, our strength and salvation, put in us the flame of your love and make our love for you grow to a perfect love that reaches to our neighbor". Please reflect before responding…I love you mom!!!

My freind, as I stated before, it’s not all about you.
You did not answer a single statement I made and apparently you are not going to.

 

[CanonAlberic]

As I’ve stated elsewhere, I don’t hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer and I don’t offer the sign of peace (with the exception of beautiful girls), and I don’t particularly care if it offends anyone. Grrr…!

Peace!