"Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

[Allen537]

CanonAlberic:

As I’ve stated elsewhere, I don’t hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer and I don’t offer the sign of peace (with the exception of beautiful girls), and I don’t particularly care if it offends anyone. Grrr…!

Peace!

Not even the sign of Peace!? That’s pretty cold.

 

[rubycanoe]

well we have a new parish priest who has also added a greeting to shake everyones hand at the Beginning of Mass, after he is up on the alter he tells us all to greet each other and introduce ourselves!!
i am a very shy person and i have always done the sign of peace, and have been doing this new greeting. i dont like holding hands at the our father, and i know it isnt in the rites of the mass. but if someone reaches out for my hand i will hold it but it makes me very uncomfortable. so to avoid the extra greeting at the beginning of mass i went to the other parish where they just have the sign of peace. well the lady next to me held my hand for the our father so i did but felt uncomfortable. anyways i came down with strep throat and scarlet fever (the rash you get from strep if if is really bad). i dont know if for sure i got it at mass as there were many children around me to whose hands i shook during the sign of peace. not sure but i cant think of anywhere else there was more than casual contact.

 

[SHEMP]

Fortiterinre:

I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn’t have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!

You have three options:

1. Continue to look down, close your eyes, refuse to hold hands. At the sign of peace do not make any attempt to make peace and ignore this lady.
2. Continue to look down, close your eyes, refuse to hold hands during the Our Father. At the sign of peace make eye contact with this woman, give peaceful hand jesture and say peace be with you.
3. Humbly offer this up. Take her hand during the Our Father since it bothers her so. Give her a warm sign of peace with gentle eye contact. Give thanks to God for He humbled Himself us.

 

[Laurel]

Allen537:

I’m not sure what the problem is with holding hands during the Our Father. I have known people who don’t hold hands for whatever reasons, and thats fine. But it seems that it is common culture in the US for the faithful to hold hands during the prayer. I personally don’t have a preference, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?

I don’t think there is a problem either as long as they are focusing on the prayer and not eachother, and they do not try to cajole others into doing the same.

 

[Fidelis]

For those who missed it, from the GIRM:

Movements and Posture

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

Aside from the fact that it is not called for in the rubrics, there are many reasons why people object to holding hands during the Our Father. For many people, hand-holding is a very personal action shared with those who are very close–spouses, lovers, parents and children. To be forced to participate or appear hopelessly churlish is unfair and embarrassing to them. A person who does not wish to hold hands in a congregation of people who have come to fully expect everyone to hold hands, is forced to take a perceptively negative action, i.e. actively declining to hold hands. This marks that person out as an unfriendly boor when, ironically, all they are doing is declining to participate in an act that is not even required!

What about the objection “At Mass we are all supposed to be one big family anyway; we should be able to show the love we are supposed to feel.” Well, that is the express purpose of “the kiss of peace” before Holy Communion. In some cultures, a fraternal gesture is literally a kiss. In the Orient, it is a polite bow. In our culture, it is a friendly shaking of hands. To go from a more intimate expression of love (holding hands) to a less intimate (a handshake) does not make any sense. If someone wants to hold hands with their spouse or kids during the Our Father, more power to them. When the entire congregation automatically goes into the stretch across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.

 

[netmilsmom]

Fidelis:

When the entire congregation automatically goes into the stretch across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.

I do so agree with you on all points.
I have said it before, Name one other situation where we are to hold hands with strangers?

I teach my children not to let strangers touch them, why is it okay in Church?

I thank God every day for my parish. I don’t have to tell my children to fold their hands and pray while others are holding hands.

Although I do have to say that we were the best present to the people around us in our old parish. When I said, “Girls, fold your hands and think about Jesus.” Those people immediately around us would drop their hands and smile.

 

[ames61]

Fortiterinre:

The communal nature of the celebration is too often emphasized over the transcendent nature of prayer and worship, and we need both. The nave of a Catholic Church should not be the one place on earth where we are hesitant to pray for fear of offending our neighbor!

Well said. To Shinobu I’d add that saying the hand holding comes from the Protestants should not be a condemnation, merely an explanation, which is true from my own experience as a Protestant. Hand holding was the norm in our church prior to my cousins holding hands in their Catholic Church.

Personally, I start out with my hands folded. If someone grabs my hand, I accept and offer it up. Just like if I am in a Church where no one kneels, I stand and offer it up. Sometimes obedience to the local pastor and community unity may have a higher priority than faithfulness to the rubrics, though hopefully we work through education in charity toward the latter.

As far as why this matters.

First of all obedience. If we can obey in the seemingly minute and easy things, we are more likely to obey in the more difficult things.
Secondly, this is the source and summit of our faith. The way we pray affects our faith. I do not know the effect of any changes, small or large to the overall picture, thus I must defer to the body to whom Christ has entrust this worship, our Church, and our bishops. I do not have the authority to make changes on my own, thus I would prefer to be faithful to the rubrics, and would prefer that my pastor do the same.
Even if this seemingly small act of disobedience does not make a difference, it opens the door to the next act of disobedience which might make a difference, and so on. How do I correct a neighbor who changes the words to Creed if I am being similarly disobedient? At that point I would have to resort to weighing the gravity of each act of disobedience. Easier to just be obedient.

This is a battle in which I am currently engaged with my pastor over a different matter. We hold hands in our parish, and this is the least egregious of the errors which I would love to see corrected. In the meantime, I strive for obedience to both him and the GIRM when possible. One day at a time.

In Christ,
Amy

 

[moderngirl]

Personally, I clasp my hands together, bow my head and say the “Our Father” and I teach my son to do the same thing. Some people in our parish hold hands with their families and some people hold hands with the people next to them. I think a little clarification by the Priest would be nice even if it to say “do what makes you feel most comfortable and prayerful but respect the people around you”.

Regarding the sign of peace, I shake hands with all of those around me but feel the need to kiss my son, as a handshake is not intimate enough with my own family.

Do any of you kiss your family members during the sign of peace?

 

[Laurel]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I do so agree with you on all points.
I have said it before, Name one other situation where we are to hold hands with strangers?

I teach my children not to let strangers touch them, why is it okay in Church?

I thank God every day for my parish. I don’t have to tell my children to fold their hands and pray while others are holding hands.

Although I do have to say that we were the best present to the people around us in our old parish. When I said, “Girls, fold your hands and think about Jesus.” Those people immediately around us would drop their hands and smile.

I go to mass almost everyday, and there are some there that hold hands. I have never been approached to do that, and even if I was I would either explain that I preferred not to, or if I thought it really meant that much to them I would. If I declined and they persisted, I would sit elesewhere the next time. The people that I have seen do this are devout Catholics. I understand that people should not perssure anyone to hold hands if they don’t want to, nor should the opposite happen. We all worship in out own way and as long as it is not sacrilegious I don’t understand what the hullabaloo is all about.

What about the sign of peace?..they are touching strangers then?

You should check this out…you might like it…amsiriano.com/hae_signup.php

BTW that seems like a strange thing to thank God for…a parish where its congregation does not hold hands… I would rather thank God for living in a country where we are free to choose to hold hands or not…heck for being able to go to church at all and to be able to express ours views here.

 

[Laurel]

moderngirl:

Personally, I clasp my hands together, bow my head and say the “Our Father” and I teach my son to do the same thing. Some people in our parish hold hands with their families and some people hold hands with the people next to them. I think a little clarification by the Priest would be nice even if it to say “do what makes you feel most comfortable and prayerful but respect the people around you”.

Regarding the sign of peace, I shake hands with all of those around me but feel the need to kiss my son, as a handshake is not intimate enough with my own family.

Do any of you kiss your family members during the sign of peace?

Well said!.. and I always kiss my family members…a handshake is not intimate enough for me either!

 

[netmilsmom]

Laurel:

What about the sign of peace?..they are touching strangers then?

When we go to a sporting event (or the movies or on a bus), we may shake someone’s hand, but we don’t hold stranger’s hands.
A handshake is different.

Laurel:

You should check this out…you might like it…amsiriano.com/hae_signup.php

HUH?
Is this your site?

Laurel:

BTW that seems like a strange thing to thank God for…a parish where its congregation does not hold hands… I would rather thank God for living in a country where we are free to choose to hold hands or not…heck for being able to go to church at all and to be able to express ours views here.

I don’t know, the link you sent me to seems pretty strange in itself.
I’m not sure you and I have the same definition of strange!

 

[Bobby_Jim]

juno24:

I second the request! I don’t know if the Holy Father reads these forums or not, but I sure would like the Bishops to clarify once and for all whether the practice of hand holding is or is not allowed.

Hmm, I wonder how the Holy Father could fit time for these forums into his schedule. They do seem to be quite addictive and suck up a lot of time.

But who knows - maybe he is reading. Maybe one of our fellow posters is, in reality, his Holiness. Could it be you? or me? This could make for an interesting thread of its own!

 

[netmilsmom]

Bobby Jim:

Hmm, I wonder how the Holy Father could fit time for these forums into his schedule. They do seem to be quite addictive and suck up a lot of time.

But who knows - maybe he is reading. Maybe one of our fellow posters is, in reality, his Holiness. Could it be you? or me? This could make for an interesting thread of its own!

It’s you, it’s it?

 

[STIOFAN]

Shinobu:

For starters I would like to say that in all my lifetime of attending Protestant Churches (all 24 years) I CAN NOT recall any time where we all held hands. NO we never danced in the aisles or held snakes and spoke in tongues. I think the interpretation some of you have of Protestants is sloppy and totally ignorant. It is very cruel to act as if Protestants are some crazy, backwater, hillbillies. There are all different types of Protestantism and you all should very well know this. Step into a Lutheran Church and you will see it is not far off from a Catholic Church. Heck they believe in the Real Presence.

Don’t be so quick to stick up your noses at others.

Also all this fuss about holding hands and shaking hands, why are some of you so bloody cold?? Is it so terrible to hold hands of a fellow human being? Did Jesus himself not say to love your neighbor? To deny the hand of another because you “don’t like it” puts you off as self-righteous. Think about how you make others feel and most importantly think about how you displease God at your apparent disgusts of your fellow man. How shameful! It is very sad that some of you are so pleased at your behavior of denying love to your neighbor.

Well if you want to shake hands please do, but some of us don’t think it’s sincere, I for one.
We shake hands with our heart as well as the physical, if I shake hands with someone half hearted, then thats a lie.
If I meet someone that I haven’t seen for a long time, or someone bereaved, married, etc: I do it with my heart.
Like I said if someone offers me their hand, I’ll take it, but it’s not something I’m comfortable with.
I went to the Marian Movement of priests prayer group at the request of my daughter, and because I was the only mode of transport for her.
But when they started holding hands and swaying, well I’m outa there, and haven’t been back since.
No offence to you, but holding hands during the Our Father is not for me, it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
The sign of peace doesn’t bother me that much, but holding hands and swaying like the ocean does.

 

[STIOFAN]

Fidelis:

When the entire congregation automatically goes into the stretch across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.

 

[chb03c]

The Liturgy is not some kind of spell book that when done properly “Jesus will apear in a magic hat” who cares if you hold hands or not. I dont know why you people are going to great length to avoid holding hands with other people. That does not preach God’s Love. I know what the GIRM says I try to do what it says, but if someone wants to really hold my hand during the Our Father I will be happy to do so.

God Love and Mercy

 

[STIOFAN]

ames61:

How do I correct a neighbor who changes the words to Creed if I am being similarly disobedient?

Amy

Some of our priests say"for us and our salvation" I say for us men and our salvation, and will continue to do so.
I don’t correct anybody, but just say it the way I was taught, if we start disecting prayers, who know where it will all end.

 

[Laurel]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

When we go to a sporting event (or the movies or on a bus), we may shake someone’s hand, but we don’t hold stranger’s hands.
A handshake is different.

HUH?
Is this your site?

I don’t know, the link you sent me to seems pretty strange in itself.
I’m not sure you and I have the same definition of strange!

A handshake is touching strangers it is not?

No it is not mine…if you do a google search on strangers holding hands this thread and that site comes up along with others.

It is strange…but no stranger that what you said, that is why I sent it to you. I thought you might pick up on the irony…especially this part…I will not hold hands with people that are red, yellow, black, white, brown, or blue. I will not hold hands with people that have grievous diseases; sport earlobes that stretch to their shoulders; boast of metal imbedded beneath the skin; are bugged; have bugs; or wear funny hats.oh well.

 

[netmilsmom]

Laurel:

A handshake is touching strangers it is not?.

Two different things.
Give me one example of another place where we are expected to hold hands with strangers. No one else has so far.

Laurel:

It is strange…but no stranger that what you said, that is why I sent it to you. I thought you might pick up on the irony…especially this part…I will not hold hands with people that are red, yellow, black, white, brown, or blue. I will not hold hands with people that have grievous diseases; sport earlobes that stretch to their shoulders; boast of metal imbedded beneath the skin; are bugged; have bugs; or wear funny hats.oh well.

I really didn’t make it that far into the site.
Thanking God for a good conservative parish and a humor website about holding cyber hands is comparable? Ok.

 

[Laurel]

This conversaton has become less than helpful so I will not reply to it again.

I apologize for contributing in leading this thread astray.