"Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

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Be careful…

The new directions on the missal that was so hot a couple of days ago, has it going back to “for us”. Then we’ll have a big debate over that all over again.

I have always said it the way it is written. I don’t feel the need for inclusive language, I am woman who is part of ‘mankind’. No biggy. I’ll say it the new way if told to.
STIOFÁN:
Some of our priests say"for us and our salvation" I say for us men and our salvation, and will continue to do so.
I don’t correct anybody, but just say it the way I was taught, if we start disecting prayers, who know where it will all end.
 
I have been thinking about a time when strangers do hold hands and I thought of the people who make human chains around abortion clinics and such. They don’t seel to mind…but maybe there is Kleenex in between…who knows. :rolleyes:
 
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PJR:
Be careful…

The new directions on the missal that was so hot a couple of days ago, has it going back to “for us”. Then we’ll have a big debate over that all over again.

I have always said it the way it is written. I don’t feel the need for inclusive language, I am woman who is part of ‘mankind’. No biggy. I’ll say it the new way if told to.
If the Church asks us to say it that way, i’ll go with the flow, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Yes you are part of mankind, and woman means taken from man, and man is also born of woman.
Some women were and still are treated like second class citizens, and I for one take my hat off to them, I like women, my mum was one 🙂
Anyway when they are joined in marriage they become one body, but some lesbians and feminists wouldn’t agree with me.
 
I have another one. Picture all the scenes of JPII we’ve seen lately of the throngs of people who wanted nothing more than to touch his garment. I have an image of hands everywhere just like they were little children, reaching out for him… and all the pictures of babies and small children he so sweetly embraced.

I know that has nothing to do with the issue of handholding being correct in the context of the Our Father. But…it does seem to keep coming back to people’s comfort level being the deciding factor. And if you are uncomfortable, that decides it for you. I will forever be more mindful of others’ dislike of having their space invaded.

I just find the argument that handholding a stranger is somehow weird, so therefore it goes against the GIRM, as a weak argument. I can accept the idea that it takes away from the sign of peace as having some merit.

I will have to say in support of some of those against the whole thing. If we are instructed to have a unified posture during the Lord’s Prayer we should go with one that doesn’t force anyone else to feel icky, distracted or irreverent.

Before long we’re going to have a rule book like the Jews had describing how many steps was breaking the Sabbath.
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Laurel:
I have been thinking about a time when strangers do hold hands and I thought of the people who make human chains around abortion clinics and such. They don’t seel to mind…but maybe there is Kleenex in between…who knows. :rolleyes:
 
I never hold hands with anyone during the Our Father, not even with my fellow lectors when it’s my Sunday to read. I just look straight up to the altar and keep my hands at my sides in a position of attention. No one has ever been offended by it. On the Sundays when I don’t read, my wife and kids and I occupy a single pew and none of us hold hands. Everyone around us gets it that we are a non-hand holding family. Once again, we’ve never had any problems. The Sign of Peace is a whole other matter. We shake hands with those around us and I don’t have any problems with that although it does get too boisterous at times which doesn’t help prepare the people for the solemnity of the Agnus Dei. But that’s just my opinion. I do prefer to give my wife a kiss on the cheek, but my sons and daughter would probably have a fit if I tried to kiss them in public. Teenagers are funny that way.
 
Inaestimabile Donum, confirmed by Pope John Paul II in 1980, acknowledged that certain innovations were taking place in the Liturgy, and that no one (even if he is a priest) has the right to tamper with the Church’s Mass. Here is an excerpt from the foreward: (my emphasis added)

The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: “Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense.

That’s enough for me. The Church hasn’t instituted hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Individual people have. It’s an innovation. It doesn’t flow with the Mass, it creates a counter-current. Doesn’t matter how this or that individual “feels” about hand-holding; it is inappropriate to tamper with the rubrics of the Mass, it offends the ecclesial sense.
Those presumably well-intentioned, warm fuzzy people doing the tampering are at fault, not those who refuse to hold hands.

We may be judged as cold pricklies as a result, but truly, if we are to render to God what is God’s, and render to our neighbor what is our neighbor’s, then we give our attention, body and soul, to God during the Lord’s Prayer. We can greet/reconcile with our neighbor at the Sign of Peace!
 
Panis Angelicas:
Inaestimabile Donum, confirmed by Pope John Paul II in 1980, acknowledged that certain innovations were taking place in the Liturgy, and that no one (even if he is a priest) has the right to tamper with the Church’s Mass. Here is an excerpt from the foreward: (my emphasis added)
The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: “Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense.

That’s enough for me. The Church hasn’t instituted hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Individual people have. It’s an innovation. It doesn’t flow with the Mass, it creates a counter-current. Doesn’t matter how this or that individual “feels” about hand-holding; it is inappropriate to tamper with the rubrics of the Mass, it offends the ecclesial sense.
Those presumably well-intentioned, warm fuzzy people doing the tampering are at fault, not those who refuse to hold hands.

We may be judged as cold pricklies as a result, but truly, if we are to render to God what is God’s, and render to our neighbor what is our neighbor’s, then we give our attention, body and soul, to God during the Lord’s Prayer. We can greet/reconcile with our neighbor at the Sign of Peace!
What about the laity doing the Orans at that time?
 
As a person who is hearing-impaired, it’s important for me to be able to use my hands when I pray. There have been a few times when I have started to sign “The Lord’s Prayer” and someone next to me will try to grab one of my hands. I mean, the person has been sitting next to me the entire Mass and had seen me signing all the responses and songs so he would know that it the only for me to join in the Prayer would be signing.

Not to get too far off track…

I’ve told this story on another forum before. Once at a signed Mass, we had a visiting priest. The Mass was very small and was actually at a college student center. Father was deeply spiritual and a fantastic speaker. When it came time for “The Lord’s Prayer”, Father closed his eyes and asked that everyone join hands for the prayer. Of course, being good Catholics - we did. By the time Father got to “Hallowed be Thy name”, he realized what he had done because he and an interpreter were the only two voicing the prayer. Father quickly apologized for his faux pas and continued the Mass. After Mass was over, Father mentioned that he was so comfortable with our small congregation, that he completely forgotten that hand-holding in this situtation wasn’t really appropriate.
 
The last time this topic came up on a thread I was attacked by several posters who thought I was being un-Christian because I refused to hold hands with the lady next to me.

To recap, I bowed my head, folded my hands, closed my eyes. Slight nudge, which I ignored (the church was crowded and I didn’t assume it was an intentional nudge). Then a slightly stronger shove, which I acknowledged with an apologetic smile and a slight headshake, which the lady probably didn’t see, because she hauled off and smacked my upper arm to get my attention. Now apparently I’m supposed to be a saint because I got a lot of flak on the last thread for admitting that for one brief moment I felt like whacking her back! When I still refused (this seemed like the longest-running Lord’s Prayer ever!), she grabbed my upper arm and securely tucked her hand under it, because, by golly, we were all united!

Then, when it came time to offer the sign of peace, I turned to her with a smile and she sniffed and very deliberately turned her back on me and refused to take my outstretched hand.

The last thread made me out to sound like the villain of the piece because I was not “charitable” and refused to capitulate to the innovators (this incident took place several years ago, just after the hand-holding began to sweep through the American church.) Since then I’ve been in a few parishes that DID NOT have the hand holding and several that did, but no one tried to force it on me. We all seemed to get along just fine and I didn’t feel any less a part of the parish than if we were all huggy.

Was I wrong? And if so, why? Because I refused to go along with something that isn’t called for in the rubrics just because my neighbor thought I should? Why is it always those of us who refuse to join in the unauthorized innovations who are considered to be uncharitable and in the wrong? Should we keep the peace at the expense of compromising what’s right?

BlueRose
 
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bluerose:
The last time this topic came up on a thread I was attacked by several posters who thought I was being un-Christian because I refused to hold hands with the lady next to me.

To recap, I bowed my head, folded my hands, closed my eyes. Slight nudge, which I ignored (the church was crowded and I didn’t assume it was an intentional nudge). Then a slightly stronger shove, which I acknowledged with an apologetic smile and a slight headshake, which the lady probably didn’t see, because she hauled off and smacked my upper arm to get my attention. Now apparently I’m supposed to be a saint because I got a lot of flak on the last thread for admitting that for one brief moment I felt like whacking her back! When I still refused (this seemed like the longest-running Lord’s Prayer ever!), she grabbed my upper arm and securely tucked her hand under it, because, by golly, we were all united!

Then, when it came time to offer the sign of peace, I turned to her with a smile and she sniffed and very deliberately turned her back on me and refused to take my outstretched hand.

The last thread made me out to sound like the villain of the piece because I was not “charitable” and refused to capitulate to the innovators (this incident took place several years ago, just after the hand-holding began to sweep through the American church.) Since then I’ve been in a few parishes that DID NOT have the hand holding and several that did, but no one tried to force it on me. We all seemed to get along just fine and I didn’t feel any less a part of the parish than if we were all huggy.

Was I wrong? And if so, why? Because I refused to go along with something that isn’t called for in the rubrics just because my neighbor thought I should? Why is it always those of us who refuse to join in the unauthorized innovations who are considered to be uncharitable and in the wrong? Should we keep the peace at the expense of compromising what’s right?

BlueRose
No, continue doing what’s right.

Funny how it always seems to be the hand-holders who engage in abuse, both physical as noted above and verbal as we’ve seen on this thread calling others “cold,” “unchristian,” “self-righteous” and “shameful.”

Keep spreading the love, hand-holders. :rolleyes:
 
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dumspirospero:
The real harm is that it is not proper and is not called for in the GIRM…therefore it shouldn’t take place…also, that is the kind of stuff you see in a protestant church…if we are going to turn the Mass into a protestant style worship service, then I don’t see why I had to leave the Baptists to spend a year in RCIA, so I could become Catholic…
It is true that holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is not called for in the GIRM so it should not take place. It is my personal opinion that holding hands places the emphasis on the congregation rather than on God to whom the prayer is addressed.

The sign of peace is the time to focus our attention on our brothers and sisters, not during the “Our Father.” However, I do not like to shake hands at Mass or anytime but I do it at Mass out of respect for my fellow members of the Body of Christ. I once told Father Corapi that I didn’t like to shake hands during the sign of peace and he told me maybe I should give a hug instead. I believe he was kidding to make a point but that cured me of even thinking of refusing to shake hands.

Peace,
God saves
 
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