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halogirl
Guest
If you’re trying to turn away from it and keep doing the best you can that’s the right thing. Ask God to help you. Concentrate on helping others
Our Habits can send us to Hell. But are we in control of our Habits?
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TK421
Guest
@RealisticCatholic
Sin and virtue are always dependent on the circumstances of the individual and not solely (or even primarily) the act itself.
The majority of our habits are instilled in us from our parents and the way we were raised, which also immensely contributes to economic inequality in life. A child as early as the age of 2 or 3 - maybe before they even retain the memory as an adult - that sees their parents studying and having long conversations and reading a lot will likely grow up and read a lot because that was modeled and imprinted on them. It’s an unearned privilege and they don’t even remember it.
Fighting against bad habits that are inflicted on us from the outside are pleasing to God. St Padre Pio says that there will be surprises in the hereafter. People who we considered to be extremely amazing will turn out to be not so great. People that we blew off as being mediocre or wretched will turn out to be a lot more than anybody gave them credit for.
Sin and virtue are always dependent on the circumstances of the individual and not solely (or even primarily) the act itself.
The majority of our habits are instilled in us from our parents and the way we were raised, which also immensely contributes to economic inequality in life. A child as early as the age of 2 or 3 - maybe before they even retain the memory as an adult - that sees their parents studying and having long conversations and reading a lot will likely grow up and read a lot because that was modeled and imprinted on them. It’s an unearned privilege and they don’t even remember it.
Fighting against bad habits that are inflicted on us from the outside are pleasing to God. St Padre Pio says that there will be surprises in the hereafter. People who we considered to be extremely amazing will turn out to be not so great. People that we blew off as being mediocre or wretched will turn out to be a lot more than anybody gave them credit for.
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TK421
Guest
Except that isn’t really solely your habit. It is somebody else’s. It was a gift.
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John_Martin
Guest
A Habit is one of the many things you know how to do without “thinking” when you wish to do that thing; it is a Skill in your toolbag of human movement.
It is your wishing to use a specific habit and then using it that is the sin (when a habit of vice).
Habits do not “happen on their own” without your willing to use them, such that you would not be voluntarily using the specific habit of vice. It is when you voluntarily want to do something vicious, that you have the habit of knowing how to be vicious very effectively and without having to work hard at being vicious whenever you want.
It is the same with the Virtues, especially the infused virtues that you received when you were baptized - whenever you will, you will be able to act in Faith, Hope, and Charity very effectively - but you must want to use the virtue, and not the vice opposing it. You will do either one (virtue or vice) very effectively, whichever you choose, and head to heaven or hell - as Thomas said more than once, one Act of Love merits heaven, and you have the Infused Charity to use whenever you will.
“I am going to do this next thing I do with Charity; Amazing!!! Who would have thought such a thing possible?”
John Martin
It is your wishing to use a specific habit and then using it that is the sin (when a habit of vice).
Habits do not “happen on their own” without your willing to use them, such that you would not be voluntarily using the specific habit of vice. It is when you voluntarily want to do something vicious, that you have the habit of knowing how to be vicious very effectively and without having to work hard at being vicious whenever you want.
It is the same with the Virtues, especially the infused virtues that you received when you were baptized - whenever you will, you will be able to act in Faith, Hope, and Charity very effectively - but you must want to use the virtue, and not the vice opposing it. You will do either one (virtue or vice) very effectively, whichever you choose, and head to heaven or hell - as Thomas said more than once, one Act of Love merits heaven, and you have the Infused Charity to use whenever you will.
“I am going to do this next thing I do with Charity; Amazing!!! Who would have thought such a thing possible?”
John Martin
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CRV
Guest
Dangerous Habits – Serious or Mortal Sin? December 26, 2016 Fr. John Bartunek, LC
Considering Culpability June 28, 2017 by Dr. Ralph Martin, STD mentions CCC # 1857-1861, 1791,1861; including quotes from the Bible as well as St Augustine . A long but interesting read.
Posted on April 18, 2016 by Msgr. Charles Pope All Together Now: What the Catechism Has to Say on Assessing Moral Acts also includes CCC # 1750, 2181, 1756,
Regarding masturbation, the CCC under the section of Offenses Against Charity it says:- “One must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability” ( CCC , n. 2352)."
Catholic Encyclopedia - Habit
For something to become a habit with regard to sins, there has to be the free choice of the will to do an act until it does become habit. Whilst sinful habits are difficult to overcome, I believe with the help of Gods’ grace together with the will, that they can be overcome. It may not be easy, and it may take some time, but I believe it can be done. Otherwise to say that these sinful habits cannot be overcome is to say that man no longer can choose to change his behaviour, and that Jesus lied when He said “My grace is sufficient for you”.
Considering Culpability June 28, 2017 by Dr. Ralph Martin, STD mentions CCC # 1857-1861, 1791,1861; including quotes from the Bible as well as St Augustine . A long but interesting read.
Posted on April 18, 2016 by Msgr. Charles Pope All Together Now: What the Catechism Has to Say on Assessing Moral Acts also includes CCC # 1750, 2181, 1756,
Regarding masturbation, the CCC under the section of Offenses Against Charity it says:- “One must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability” ( CCC , n. 2352)."
Catholic Encyclopedia - Habit
For something to become a habit with regard to sins, there has to be the free choice of the will to do an act until it does become habit. Whilst sinful habits are difficult to overcome, I believe with the help of Gods’ grace together with the will, that they can be overcome. It may not be easy, and it may take some time, but I believe it can be done. Otherwise to say that these sinful habits cannot be overcome is to say that man no longer can choose to change his behaviour, and that Jesus lied when He said “My grace is sufficient for you”.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Does not the learned (or natural) habit DIMINISH the selective, intentional will to use it, whether a habit of virtue or one of vice? In other words, once we have developed a habit, don’t we often follow up on it without too much prior thought? I ask this because you seem to be saying that a habit is the same as any other behavior in that it requires voluntary will. My opinion is that it does NOT require voluntary will, or at least far less voluntary will, than other behaviors. Your thoughts?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
We are all because of our fallen nature inclined to certain sins.
That is a far cry from “it is genetic so I have no control over my habit of lying”.
That is a far cry from “it is genetic so I have no control over my habit of lying”.
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John_Martin
Guest
Habits, virtues and vices, are not “general behaviors”, such that you might state, “I am going to live virtuously”.
Habits are specific to individual acts, must be called into service for individual activities, such that one could say, “I am driving to work virtuously this morning,” but one cannot say, “I am going to always drive virtuously.” It fails to work as a general intention.
I have a habit of knowing how to hammer a nail straight, with minimal effort; but I do not then indiscriminately hammer nails everywhere I go - but when I choose to nail two boards together, I do it well, using the habit, and yet I must “look at the nail”, focus on the task, and “yet without thinking” - a strange combination.
We, as Catholics, have three virtues that you do not (yet) have: Faith, Hope, Charity, the three theological Virtues, that are infused in us; they are not learned virtues, but are immediately present and ready to use whenever needed. We use Faith when we concur with the teaching of our Superiors in the Church, Hope when we consider that our sojourn will be successful, and Charity when we pour out our selves into the good of the Other. The use of these are fully intentional because we are on an intentional mission. We focus on what we are intending, and yet know how to do it virtuously when attending to it.
John Martin
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RealisticCatholic
Guest
But we’re talking about Aquinas.
He bluntly states some people have habits inborn. Some people as well are more naturally chaste, temperate, and virtuous in other ways.
He bluntly states some people have habits inborn. Some people as well are more naturally chaste, temperate, and virtuous in other ways.
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RealisticCatholic
Guest
Doesn’t get to the heart of it, though.
It’s not fair that someone should go to hell because he has a bent inclination to, compared to someone else. UNLESS hell is simply getting what you want.
In that case, some people are born such that hell IS their fulfillment.
But no Catholic would say that. All people are born FOR God.
It’s not fair that someone should go to hell because he has a bent inclination to, compared to someone else. UNLESS hell is simply getting what you want.
In that case, some people are born such that hell IS their fulfillment.
But no Catholic would say that. All people are born FOR God.
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Magnanimity
Guest
It’s a good question. I often wonder the same thing. There are, I believe, many reasons for thinking that we our not in a lot of control of anything in this world, to include ourselves. I have not read any contemporary books that would try to analyze the Aristotelian-Thomistic virtue ethics in the light of psychology. But I would like to read something like that!
Modern-day psychologists argue strongly against a “blank slate” view of the human mind/soul. (For example, Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt both do this.) A lot of what one encounters here on CAF re hell and free will seems to be rooted in a “blank slate” approach to humanity. It’s this presumption that we are each of us, in any given moment, entirely free to choose ‘x’ or ‘not-x.’
What I like about the Aristotelian picture is that it incorporates a more realistic vision—that we are creatures of habit and these various habits that we form go toward the making up of our character. This ethical theory does at least offer some view of change and it appreciates the fact that habituation is a real phenomenon for humans.
But the crux of your question is how much of all of this do we control? Not very much, I think. The more you appreciate your own genetics, the wide array of influences in your life and even the fact that your own consciousness often appears to not be under your “control,” the more it seems to suggest that whatever is within your control is a small portion.
I don’t think I could ever be a strict determinist, but Aquinas, modern-day science and my everyday experience all suggest that the truth of the matter leans much closer to determinism and far away from a blank slate freedom that claims we have complete control over ourselves, to include our habits. St Paul acknowledges our great difficulty in his own piercing insight into his internal struggle in Romans chapter 7. This lack of control is precisely why we all must lean on the mercy of God. We do what we can, and we lean on his mercy.
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Peeps
Guest
Wasn’t Thomas Aquinas immensely fat, and didn’t he die of “swelling?” (Edema)
I might be getting him mixed up with another saint. If so, apologies.
A habit is something that human beings do because it brings them pleasure, comfort, and security. The motive in developing a habit is not sinful. There is nothing “sinful” about wanting to be happy, comforted, and secure, and doing activities that bring these feelings into our lives.
One of the best examples of a “habit” is thumb-sucking. Children (and some adults!) develop this habit because it brings them pleasure, comfort, and security.
My habit is drinking soda pop. I have had this habit since I was 13 years old and I’m now 62. I am currently drinking one “sugar pop” and at least 5-6 diet pops every day of my life. I don’t drink anything else. I would call it an “addiction” I have only given up soda once in my life–for two years, I stopped drinking it. I didn’t lose any weight (at that time, I was drinking straight Coke, not diet), and finally I decided that soda pop brings me too much pleasure to give it up.
To me, soda pop isn’t just a pleasant thirst-quencher. It’s puppies and being young and gathering in a circle on a hill and singing about world peace. It’s my teenaged years, which for me were very happy. It’s dates and slumber parties and sitting with my mother (R.I.P.) while she was in the nursing home and talking about many things (she loved Pepsi).
Is drinking soda pop really a mortal sin? Really? No, of course it isn’t.
It seems to me that some habits are sinful because the act committed is sinful. E.g., porn–forces young people into an industry that produces indecent pictures and and films of sinful acts, distorts a person’s view of human sexuality, supports a “criminal” sector, etc.
But most other habits are not innately sinful, e.g., drinking soda pop. watching TV. smoking (no, I don’t think it’s sinful), drinking alcohol, gambling for fun, maintaining a collection of innocuous objects (e.g., my collection of uranium glass), online activity like Facebook or CAF!, a daily walk or run, reading the Bible and praying every morning, etc.
I see no need for someone with an innocent addition like soda pop or playing cards or taking a daily walk or spending an hour a day online to try to free themselves from the “net.” It’s pleasurable, comforting, and helps us to feel secure.
I think that some habits are easier to overcome than others because they can be replaced with comparably-pleasurable and satisfying alternatives–but those alternatives then become the NEW habit–hence my opinion that habits are NOT mortally sinful. Many people have replaced their soda pop habit with sparkling water, but they still drink several bottles a day (and most pay for it)–most people would say that this habit is not sinful.
The only reason it is good to free ourselves from habits is that we will probably eventually get to a place where we are no longer able to indulge in our habit; .e.g, I doubt the aides in a nursing home will allow a 80-something-year-old me to have 6 sodas a day unless I am able to get to the bathroom by myself!
I might be getting him mixed up with another saint. If so, apologies.
A habit is something that human beings do because it brings them pleasure, comfort, and security. The motive in developing a habit is not sinful. There is nothing “sinful” about wanting to be happy, comforted, and secure, and doing activities that bring these feelings into our lives.
One of the best examples of a “habit” is thumb-sucking. Children (and some adults!) develop this habit because it brings them pleasure, comfort, and security.
My habit is drinking soda pop. I have had this habit since I was 13 years old and I’m now 62. I am currently drinking one “sugar pop” and at least 5-6 diet pops every day of my life. I don’t drink anything else. I would call it an “addiction” I have only given up soda once in my life–for two years, I stopped drinking it. I didn’t lose any weight (at that time, I was drinking straight Coke, not diet), and finally I decided that soda pop brings me too much pleasure to give it up.
To me, soda pop isn’t just a pleasant thirst-quencher. It’s puppies and being young and gathering in a circle on a hill and singing about world peace. It’s my teenaged years, which for me were very happy. It’s dates and slumber parties and sitting with my mother (R.I.P.) while she was in the nursing home and talking about many things (she loved Pepsi).
Is drinking soda pop really a mortal sin? Really? No, of course it isn’t.
It seems to me that some habits are sinful because the act committed is sinful. E.g., porn–forces young people into an industry that produces indecent pictures and and films of sinful acts, distorts a person’s view of human sexuality, supports a “criminal” sector, etc.
But most other habits are not innately sinful, e.g., drinking soda pop. watching TV. smoking (no, I don’t think it’s sinful), drinking alcohol, gambling for fun, maintaining a collection of innocuous objects (e.g., my collection of uranium glass), online activity like Facebook or CAF!, a daily walk or run, reading the Bible and praying every morning, etc.
I see no need for someone with an innocent addition like soda pop or playing cards or taking a daily walk or spending an hour a day online to try to free themselves from the “net.” It’s pleasurable, comforting, and helps us to feel secure.
I think that some habits are easier to overcome than others because they can be replaced with comparably-pleasurable and satisfying alternatives–but those alternatives then become the NEW habit–hence my opinion that habits are NOT mortally sinful. Many people have replaced their soda pop habit with sparkling water, but they still drink several bottles a day (and most pay for it)–most people would say that this habit is not sinful.
The only reason it is good to free ourselves from habits is that we will probably eventually get to a place where we are no longer able to indulge in our habit; .e.g, I doubt the aides in a nursing home will allow a 80-something-year-old me to have 6 sodas a day unless I am able to get to the bathroom by myself!
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John_Martin
Guest
they will fit you with a catheter. And perhaps you will wonder, “How did I go so many years without this wonderful invention?”
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TheLittleLady
Guest
That is because we are not to be slaves to our passions. St Paul speaks of putting our bodies under submission.
There is the Scripture that tells us we are tempted when we are led away by our passions.
While a young child or someone with mental deficits may not have the maturity to have dominion over their inborn urges, when we reach the age of reason we are required to begin mastering (with the grace of the Sacraments) these unholy desires.
As Flip Wilson used to say “the devil made me do it” does not wash once we are past spiritual childhood.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
We do not know the degree to which habit diminishes responsibility, so it would be unwise to assume there is any diminished at all. It could reduce my culpability anywhere from 0% to 100%. Since I can’t know the number, it makes the most sense to assume 0% and behave accordingly. If I am wrong then I’m sure God and I will have a nice laugh about my over-worrying. If I am right, and the habit of the act hasn’t removed my culpability for it, then I will be quite happy for my diligence.
Both. Remember, even venial sins can contribute to our eternal perdition, if we allow them to aid and abet mortal sins, which completely turn our souls away from God.
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RealisticCatholic
Guest
I don’t see how it can be both. The former, you go to hell because you are culpable. The latter, you go to hell even if you’re not culpable. An example of the latter would be an inborn disposition to sexual vice. Under the former description, such an inborn disposition would seem to remove or diminish culpability (since that person is not altogether free – he is affected by his own chanced biology). But on the latter view, it doesn’t matter if you’re culpable. That just happens to be his nature: to want sex more than other things. Therefore, hell is his natural end, even if he doesn’t choose it per se.
So which is it? Or if it’s both, please explain in a way that is reconcilable, as well as matching the Catholic belief that no one goes to hell except through deliberate mortal sin.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
If you go to Hell, you are at least partially culpable for that state. Period. You will not go to Hell if you have no say in your sins, for whatever reason.
Habits are born of repetition. I continuously sinned, and therefore developed a habit of sin. My habit is itself mortally sinful. However, I could also have other habits, such as lying, which are not in an of themselves mortally sinful, but which still turn the soul away from God. If I spend my whole life lying, that is a whole life of turning my soul away from God, bit by it. At the end, it may be unbearable for me to look on the face of God with the culminated weight of my sins weighing on me, and I may run from him.
No, that is not his nature. That is the result of the damage he has done to his nature. I inordinately desire sexual activity. That is my doing, not an inherent aspect of my nature.
You also cannot treat any diminishment as complete removal of culpability. The habitual nature of my sin may remove some of my culpability, but it may not remove all of it. Sin we do not know, it is always and everywhere better to assume that it removes none of it, and to behave accordingly. if I am wrong then I have lost nothing; if I am right then I may have gained everything.
That is not a Catholic belief, and I know people have told you that before.
Commit a mortal sin and refusing to repent for it guarantees damnation. However, that is not the only path to damnation. A life with no mortal sins (due to lack of knowledge / ability), but which is still filled with disregard for God can lead you to Hell. A life filled with unrepented venial sins can also lead to Hell. A life of apathy and lukewarmness can lead to Hell. (Jesus tells us that one directly).
Mortal sin is one path to Hell, but it is not the only path.
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RealisticCatholic
Guest
This is absolutely incorrect.
Mortal Sin by definition is that sin which leads to hell.
Venial Sin can only lead to hell if, in the end, it leads one to commit Mortal Sin.
The Catechism is clear that only a deliberate mortal sin and persistence in it until the end is what merits eternal hell.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
So, in your mind, the only way to willfully turn away from God is to commit an explicit mortal sin?
A lifetime of indifference or constant venial sin won’t do it, only one of those handful of sinful actions which count as mortal sins is enough?
A lifetime of indifference or constant venial sin won’t do it, only one of those handful of sinful actions which count as mortal sins is enough?
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