Our Next President

[Rich_Olszewski]

Part of a taxpayer life’s work taken by the rule of a mob in Washington or some state capital is slavery.

Representatives freely and fairly elected by the people of a state are not a mob!

But the other takings for SS, Medicare, Medicaid ~~~ are enslavements to satisfy the greedy mob.

And so, the elderly and the people who have no medical coverage at all are no more than a greedy mob?

This post IMO is rather uncharitable and hardly consistent with the Catholic Church’s understanding of representation of the people and our obligations to the needy.

Yeah, I know, we are all to take care of our neighbors, but can we afford it on an individual basis without some government assistance?

 

[bellasbane]

Sorry for the length but rant I did anyway.

A long time ago there was a National Geo documentary on the Inca Empire. I remember this little factoid from it because I thought it quite ironic. An Inca male was required to work for the emperor 6 months every 5 years. Well in our free country everyone who makes over 40K or 50k not sure which has to work 4 or more months every year for the all the various branches of government. It is weird isn’t it?

At any rate taxation must be a very complicated subject because of all the highly learned people with university degrees and certifications and licenses who have to work the process to keep Warren Buffet’s tax rate lower than his secretary’s. But, the point is whether you’re Warren or some shmo on a factory line there is a finite amount of money you are going to earn in a lifetime. So, to my simple reasoning mind, the government coercive takings of your money to GIVE to some other entity, either through WIC, SSI, or grants to climate scholars, or Archer Daniels Midland is a transfer of part of your life’s work. So, you basically have been enslaved because you are working without compensation. Part of a taxpayer life’s work taken by the rule of a mob in Washington or some state capital is slavery. Partial maybe but slavery just the same.

Now obviously the screech starts over bridges, roads, highways, national defense et cetera. Well those are common goods necessary for the nice life we have in this country. They are not enriching someone else’s pocket and are shared by all. But the other takings for SS, Medicare, Medicaid, write offs for political donations, write offs so a lobbyist can keep a rich guys tax rate low on capital gains, or payments to some dude for not growing food on a farm… these are enslavements to satisfy the greedy mob. The mob depends on the recipients be they rich or be they poor to keep them in power so they can pass out more of the taxpayers life earnings. Kind of a vicious circle isn’t it.

So, yes take the blue pill. Keep taking it and someday out in the future when the final remaining taxpayers have had enough what was called “man’s last best hope” will crumble in the dust. It will be because the voters and the mob they put in power forgot their first principles. Crumble it will, because slaves do not defend their masters very well.

Spoken like a true disciple of Ayn Rand! You deserve a B+, I’d give you an A, but you forgot to cite your source. Sorry

 

[bellasbane]

Representatives freely and fairly elected by the people of a state are not a mob!

And so, the elderly and the people who have no medical coverage at all are no more than a greedy mob?

This post IMO is rather uncharitable and hardly consistent with the Catholic Church’s understanding of representation of the people and our obligations to the needy.

Yeah, I know, we are all to take care of our neighbors, but can we afford it on an individual basis without some government assistance?

You are responding to Atlas Shrugged 101 rantings inspired by the philosophy of Ayn Rand. What else do you expect? I keep telling people it’s infiltrated the conservative movement, but all the good Christians on this site seem to want to ignore it.

Scary if you ask me.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

You are responding to Atlas Shrugged 101 rantings inspired by the philosophy of Ayn Rand. What else do you expect? I keep telling people it’s infiltrated the conservative movement, but all the good Christians on this site seem to want to ignore it.

Scary if you ask me.

Yes, I had it with that bunch when I read their suggestion that the way to deal with the war in Iraq (back then) was to level Baghdad and its other cities with carpet bombing sparing no one. They were serious as they always are.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

WOW Great post.

You a Randian? Say it isn’t so, Christine!!

 

[bellasbane]

Yes, I had it with that bunch when I read their suggestion that the way to deal with the war in Iraq (back then) was to level Baghdad and its other cities with carpet bombing sparing no one. They were serious as they always are.

Serious and trying to convince Catholics who struggle to follow the often-tough-but-always-beautiful-path laid out by our Savior that we are somehow less pious then they. They question my faith all the time, because I dare to express compassion for sinners.

I would stop posting on this forum and leave it to them, except that the word “Catholic” appears at the top of the website and I’m not about to abandon that to them.

May God bless you on this Holy Thursday.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You a Randian? Say it isn’t so, Christine!!

I admire some of the work of Rand and all of Jesus, what does that make me? I guess because I subscribe to the writings of Stephen Hayes, that also makes me a Ninja! :nunchuk:

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You are responding to Atlas Shrugged 101 rantings inspired by the philosophy of Ayn Rand. What else do you expect? I keep telling people it’s infiltrated the conservative movement, but all the good Christians on this site seem to want to ignore it.

Scary if you ask me.

So, who’s economic principles do YOU subscribe to? I guess Karl Marx or John Maynard Keynes, since they seem to have proliferated inside the liberal movement? Well, to be fair, J. M. Keynes is pretty popular with statist, establishment Republicans too.

 

[scipio337]

I admire some of the work of Rand and all of Jesus, what does that make me? I guess because I subscribe to the writings of Stephen Hayes, that also makes me a Ninja! :nunchuk:

Especially when one considers that Rand’s “Objectivism” was in its time, a counter to a virulently anti-religion, large-scale socio-economic system that 1/2 the world was participating in. And the Catholic Church opposed.

What was the name of it again?

I would say that the amount of “Randian” influence in today’s GOP is much less than the “Alinsky” influence in our current administration. But I’m sure Obama supporters have no problem with that. Rand’s works should be part of our “Sauberung”, while Alinsky is deserving of many o’ senior thesis at Wellesley.

And SKH rules!

 

[scipio337]

So, who’s economic principles do YOU subscribe to? I guess Karl Marx or John Maynard Keynes, since they seem to have proliferated inside the liberal movement? Well, to be fair, J. M. Keynes is pretty popular with statist, establishment Republicans too.

Or Krugman

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Or Krugman

Paul Krugman is the second coming of John Maynard Keynes.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

And SKH rules!

He is the only man in the world who doesn’t by the Chuck Norris hype.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I admire some of the work of Rand and all of Jesus, what does that make me? I guess because I subscribe to the writings of Stephen Hayes, that also makes me a Ninja! :nunchuk:

For me, it’s sometimes the messenger and not just the message, and so, I reject Rand and her disciples as well as what she wrote.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

For me, it’s sometimes the messenger and not just the message, and so, I reject Rand and her disciples as well as what she wrote.

So, who’s economic theories do you subscribe to?

Me, I enjoy Rand’s portrayal of economic reality, but I am squarely in the pocket of Ludwig von Mises and the Austrian School.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

So, who’s economic theories do you subscribe to?

Regarding economic theories, I abstain from subscribing to any one in particular. I am an attorney and my work doesn’t require me get involved in economics. I know it is of vital importance to some and I say to them, “have at it and enjoy the give and take!”

 

[bellasbane]

So, who’s economic principles do YOU subscribe to? I guess Karl Marx or John Maynard Keynes, since they seem to have proliferated inside the liberal movement? Well, to be fair, J. M. Keynes is pretty popular with statist, establishment Republicans too.

I subscribe to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding economic and social justice. I think I’ve linked to this document before, but here it is again:

usccb.org/upload/economic_justice_for_all.pdf

I’m trained as a social researcher to understand complex social problems. One thing I know is that a “one-size-fits-all” approach to anything is doomed to failure. The reason is that you simply cannot generalize from one context to another. In social science lingo, the immediate influences on behavior are called “proximal processes” and they are always local. Therefore, you can’t assume that they are the same across multiple contexts.

However, proximal processes are themselves influenced by more distal processes that operate on a wider scale. Historical process, cultural processes, religious processes, economic processes, all influence the nature of the proximal processes an individual experiences. Sometimes the effect is direct and other times it is mediated. Therefore, you cannot reduce “fixing social problems” to the local environment either.

I am interested in finding the correct level of intervention needed in order to maximize the likelihood that the processes operating upon the individual produce positive developmental outcomes. I am motivated to do this for several reasons and none of them have anything to do with charity, which to me is a personal and not a social transaction

1. I want to live in a civil society
2. I don’t like to see people suffer - I would much rather see them thrive
3. I want my kids to grow up in a healthy environment
4. I don’t think a person should be “privileged” just because he or she is rich.

The list goes on…

 

[bellasbane]

For me, it’s sometimes the messenger and not just the message, and so, I reject Rand and her disciples as well as what she wrote.

I agree. Ayn Rand is a disturbing person.

The problem with Ayn Rand is that if you reject her initial premise, that the individual is all that matters, the rest of her argument falls to pieces. Every time we as Catholics join in Holy Communion, we illustrate the fallacy of her initial premise.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I subscribe to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding economic and social justice. I think I’ve linked to this document before, but here it is again:

usccb.org/upload/economic_justice_for_all.pdf

I’m trained as a social researcher to understand complex social problems. One thing I know is that a “one-size-fits-all” approach to anything is doomed to failure. The reason is that you simply cannot generalize from one context to another. In social science lingo, the immediate influences on behavior are called “proximal processes” and they are always local. Therefore, you can’t assume that they are the same across multiple contexts.

However, proximal processes are themselves influenced by more distal processes that operate on a wider scale. Historical process, cultural processes, religious processes, economic processes, all influence the nature of the proximal processes an individual experiences. Sometimes the effect is direct and other times it is mediated. Therefore, you cannot reduce “fixing social problems” to the local environment either.

I am interested in finding the correct level of intervention needed in order to maximize the likelihood that the processes operating upon the individual produce positive developmental outcomes. I am motivated to do this for several reasons and none of them have anything to do with charity, which to me is a personal and not a social transaction

1. I want to live in a civil society
2. I don’t like to see people suffer - I would much rather see them thrive
3. I want my kids to grow up in a healthy environment
4. I don’t think a person should be “privileged” just because he or she is rich.

The list goes on…

The most notable theory of economics ever put together by a group affiliated with the Catholic Church is the School of Salemanca in the 1600s, who were disciples of St. Thomas Aquinas. These economic theories evolved to later become known as the Austrian School of Economics. As far as I know, the Catholic Church has put together theological principles on good governance and civil society and doesn’t endorse any one particular economic theory (although the Distributionist theory was put together by some early 20th century British Catholics. It never caught hold anywhere).

So, again, I ask, what economic theory do you subscribe to, because the Catholic Church doesn’t have one.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Especially when one considers that Rand’s “Objectivism” was in its time, a counter to a virulently anti-religion, large-scale socio-economic system that 1/2 the world was participating in. And the Catholic Church opposed.

What was the name of it again?

Are you speaking of State Capitalism, popularly called Communism?

Glad to hear that Rand was a counter to an anti-religion system that the Catholic Church opposed. I presume that you don’t believe that her own beliefs weren’t just as virulently anti-religion and opposed by the Church. Believe what you will.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

So, again, I ask, what economic theory do you subscribe to, because the Catholic Church doesn’t have one.

Where is it written that individuals must subscribe to a particular economic theory? That you do so is fine, but I fail to see any obligation for others.