Our Profound Ignorance of the Crimes of Communism

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Looks like you have an affinity to the large numbers. So you do retain the bias that Stalin killed more than Hitler.

The Gulag did not kill 12 million people. It is not supported by the archives. Only about 400,000 died in Kulak resettlement.

I rely on empirical evidence.
I don’t care how large the numbers are. Inflated numbers are not necessary to show how brutal and evil socialism in its totalitarian and authoritarian forms are. For me, it isn’t a bias in favor of Hitler over Stalin, or Stalin over Hitler. I have a overwhelming bias against both of them, and the economic and political system the employed against their people, the varying degrees and styles of socialist oppression notwithstanding.

That said, there is a significant number of historians that believe Stalin was responsible for many more civilian deaths than your source claims. But Stalin was not the only monster who ruled the USSR over its 70 year reign of terror. From Lenin to Gorbachev, there was not a respectable human being among them.
 
RCinMT;14355452:
No, it wasn’t a war of extermination. What Hitler did on the Eastern Front was fairly mild. Stalin is the real enemy. After all, he killed more people than Hitler. Not only that, he killed his own people.

This is the reductio ad absurdum of the propaganda of the tens of millions. They simply don’t exist.

Again, people could collaborate with Nazis.
Germany:
False, totally false. It was a war of extermination.

ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007183

By February 1942, 2,000,000 of the 3,300,000 Soviet soldiers in German custody up to that point had died from starvation, exposure, disease, or shooting.

USSR:

news.stanford.edu/2010/09/23/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310/

There’s a reason for Russian obliviousness. Every family had not only victims but perpetrators. “A vast network of state organizations had to be mobilized to seize and kill that many people,” Naimark wrote, estimating that tens of thousands were accomplices.
 
Latias;14355569:
False, totally false. It was a war of extermination.

ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007183
By February 1942, 2,000,000 of the 3,300,000 Soviet soldiers in German custody up to that point had died from starvation, exposure, disease, or shooting.

You must be more autistic than I am!

No, I most certainly do not subscribe to the clean Wehrmacht myth.

So, if the German soldiers killed millions of Soviet citizens causing immense resentment, then why would a Soviet soldier (who had tens millions of his countrymen killed by Stalin) not try to defect to the Nazis and get the best treatment as possible? Wouldn’t they have as strong resentment against Stalin? Why do people who lived in the Soviet Union believe that the fall of the Soviet Union is a tragedy?
 
Communism isn’t so bad. It seems so glorious and desirable. I wouldn’t mind living in the Soviet Union with parades of tanks and road-mounted intercontinental ballistic missiles.

See this.
It may seem that way until starvation sets in as it did in the Ukraine and you have to cannibalize in order to survive.

But hey, if you’ve got the Rolodex of excuses of how that should not happen----although these situations do happen under communism and socialism over and over and over---------then 🤷 The military feared invasion, so they couldn’t give back the grain, ect. ect.

Interesting excuse, BTW, because national security is frequently used an excuse for things like that to environmental degradation.

The people still starved, but hey, at least those other guys over there didn’t have to worry!

Thing is, there is more than enough to go around in Ukraine. Problem is government cannot efficiently or effectively manage such things. Never has, probably never will.

Oh, and those parades are all a show that covers up quite a nasty truth.

But if one is so in favor of these forms of government, then one could always move to Venezuela or North Korea.

I really don’t know what is stopping people…
 
I don’t care how large the numbers are. Inflated numbers are not necessary to show how brutal and evil socialism in its totalitarian and authoritarian forms are. For me, it isn’t a bias in favor of Hitler over Stalin, or Stalin over Hitler. I have a overwhelming bias against both of them, and the economic and political system the employed against their people, the varying degrees and styles of socialist oppression notwithstanding.

That said, there is a significant number of historians that believe Stalin was responsible for many more civilian deaths than your source claims. But Stalin was not the only monster who ruled the USSR over its 70 year reign of terror. From Lenin to Gorbachev, there was not a respectable human being among them.
I think the large numbers are quite accurate. By this point in history, we have the means to accurately assess the situation.

Folks who like communism and socialism on paper have to water this stuff down.
 
RCinMT;14355594:
You must be more autistic than I am!

No, I most certainly do not subscribe to the clean Wehrmacht myth.

So, if the German soldiers killed millions of Soviet citizens causing immense resentment, then why would a Soviet soldier (who had tens millions of his countrymen killed by Stalin) not try to defect to the Nazis and get the best treatment as possible? Wouldn’t they have as strong resentment against Stalin?
There was no quarter given to the Russian soldiers. Further, the soldiers own families would have faced execution by the communist government.
Why do people who lived in the Soviet Union believe that the fall of the Soviet Union is a tragedy?
Why did people who lived in the Soviet Union rise up against the communist regime?
 
Certainly the definitions of socialism, communism and capitalism I use are not conceptions that came after the USSR, but that predate it by decades. They are definitions that Marx used. He died in 1881, and the USSR was formed in 1922. They predate Stalin and Mao by decades, a century for Mao. Certainly the definition of communism I use, that it is a classless, stateless society where the means of production are held in common by all and exchange value does not exist, is the properly understood definition of communism, the original definition. Stalin and Mao themselves would have recognized that as communism - they did not believe to have created communist societies yet. Stalin never recognized the USSR as being communist, and Mao did not recognize the PRC as being communist. They would both consider them to be socialist countries on the road to achieving communism.
What you are laying out here are what Jordan Peterson calls “low-resolution” depictions of ideologies.

youtu.be/sSDClxjcR-4

He further develops the analogy by likening, say Marx, to a child sketching a picture of a helicopter on paper. That rendition of a helicopter will never fly. It might be charming and have a certain creative flair that will enamor some people, but the real test of flight-worthiness is to zero-in on the details to the point that each part has been conceived, engineered and tested in the real world.

The conception you are sketching out of a “classless, stateless society where the means of production are held in common by all and exchange value does not exist,” which you claim is the “properly understood definition of communism” is akin to a child’s charming little picture of a helicopter they might lovingly and laboriously draw with colorful crayola wax on rough newsprint.

The problem with this sketch is that when you do focus attention on the aspects which are required to make the thing fly - the high resolution working plan - there are huge practical problems with regard to making each of the parts functional towards the flight-worthiness of the thing that your charming little depiction of communism just doesn’t address.

States such as the Societ Union, Nazi Germany, China, Cuba, and a myriad of others are real world attempts to make your cherished depiction fly on a large scale and for extended periods. None have worked and all have resulted in high casualty totals.

Now you can continue to insist that your low-resolution conception will not produce the same results, but will be different from all those disastrous attempts merely because you add a bit more colour and aesthetic wonderfulness to it, but at some point you have to get into the details and engineer those details into existence in order to make it fly.

You might even try a small scale model - say a household of likeminded individuals and see how that turns out.

Anyone who has shared a house or suite with several others will tell you that it doesn’t often turn out as you claim. Look at marriages and families trying to exist in a wider nonsupportive culture of dissolution, narcissism and egoism - they are less than 50% successful today. What are you going to do when your large communist society begins to unravel and disagreements about certain specifics arise? We already know the answer to that from the communist states which actually have been implemented in the past. We properly anticipate boatloads of people trying to escape, detention camps, forced labor and shortages of the necessities of life.

“No,” you say, “my ‘communism’ will be different because they got it all wrong in the past and Marx knew something about human beings that they did not. Being as brilliant and insightful as Marx, I am competent to bring about success where they have all failed.” How many resulting casualties is the threshold at which you will admit that your rendition of communism is no better than anyone else’s and that Marx just got it wrong?

Now there is a workable form of “communalism” which has had some success in the past and even today - the monastaries and monastic communities that still dot the landscape around the globe, but all of these would attribute their success to supernatural intervention (grace) of some sort, not purely human good will, and none would be so foolish as to attempt to expand their communities to include everyone in the wider society. There are periods of discernment and formation which are necessary to determine who ought to be permitted into the community and how they are to be properly formed into the lifestyle.
 
Now there is a workable form of “communalism” which has had some success in the past and even today - the monastaries and monastic communities that still dot the landscape around the globe, but all of these would attribute their success to supernatural intervention (grace) of some sort, not purely human good will, and none would be so foolish as to attempt to expand their communities to include everyone in the wider society. There are periods of discernment and formation which are necessary to determine who ought to be permitted into the community and how they are to be properly formed into the lifestyle.
The difference is they’ve made the conscience choice to do this without a gun being pointed to their head.

That is their right in a free society, but as already noted with communism and socialism, because they are diametrically opposed to natural law and human incentive, the state has to step in and control every little thing as the end-all, be-all and people become resentful even if it’s illegal or even if they don’t have much power to do something about it.
 
RCinMT;14355594:
You must be more autistic than I am!

No, I most certainly do not subscribe to the clean Wehrmacht myth.

So, if the German soldiers killed millions of Soviet citizens causing immense resentment, then why would a Soviet soldier (who had tens millions of his countrymen killed by Stalin) not try to defect to the Nazis and get the best treatment as possible? Wouldn’t they have as strong resentment against Stalin? Why do people who lived in the Soviet Union believe that the fall of the Soviet Union is a tragedy?
Plenty of Soviet soldiers did defect to the Nazis, and many volunteered to fight against STalin. But it soon became clear that the Nazis were not going to allow them to have a military role, and either treated them as slaves or as prisoners doomed to die of neglect. Stalin, of course, did not support Russian POWs either.

The cow that died is always the “best” cow. Russians in the Soviet era had no mass media that would tell them the truth about their odious regime, and some people actually improved their lives under it. yes, this student or that knew that his/her fellow student’s father was taken off by the “organs” of state security, but it wasn’t something you talked about, lest somebody turn you in for “anti-Soviet propaganda” or being a member of a “conspiratorial group”.

But it’s also true that it wasn’t long after publication of the “Gulag Archipelago” series, Russians had a glimpse of the breadth of the horror and the Soviet Union fell apart.
 
I think the large numbers are quite accurate. By this point in history, we have the means to accurately assess the situation.

Folks who like communism and socialism on paper have to water this stuff down.
Well, I’ve seen no reason to doubt the larger numbers, but if our friend here wants to doubt them, I just hope he doesn’t use that as an excuse to minimize the brutality.

Jon
 
What you are laying out here are what Jordan Peterson calls “low-resolution” depictions of ideologies.
I dislike Jordan Peterson
The conception you are sketching out of a “classless, stateless society where the means of production are held in common by all and exchange value does not exist,” which you claim is the “properly understood definition of communism” is akin to a child’s charming little picture of a helicopter they might lovingly and laboriously draw with colorful crayola wax on rough newsprint.

States such as the Societ Union, Nazi Germany, China, Cuba, and a myriad of others are real world attempts to make your cherished depiction fly on a large scale and for extended periods. None have worked and all have resulted in high casualty totals.
Nazi Germany wasn’t communist, it was explicitly anti-communist and anti-Marxist.
Now you can continue to insist that your low-resolution conception will not produce the same results, but will be different from all those disastrous attempts merely because you add a bit more colour and aesthetic wonderfulness to it, but at some point you have to get into the details and engineer those details into existence in order to make it fly.
I feel like I’ve said this to you before, but understand that Marx isn’t just saying that there is some kind of better society that we ought to strive for. He isn’t saying that capitalism has its pros and cons but there’s an even better society we should give a go, communism. He had a dialectical view of the development of history, and he is arguing that certain contradictions that are inherent to capitalism will undoubtedly and ultimately resolve themselves through the creation of a new mode of production, communism. His argument is that communism comes from capitalism, that communism is the result of certain antagonisms that are inherent to capitalism. It doesn’t make sense to critique the Marxist position as you are doing, and it can only come from a fundamental misunderstanding of Marxism. You would have to critique Marx’s analysis of capitalism. Simply put, Marx is arguing that there are certain antagonisms inherent to capitalism that will lead to workers’ revolution, that the material reality of the world under capitalism will develop in such a way that workers’ revolution will prove inevitable, and communism will be the synthesis of these antagonisms. These antagonisms will have to resolve themselves somehow and since they are inherent to capitalism, this will have to involve the replacement of capitalism. This can either be through the formation of a socialist society, or through regression to an earlier mode of production. As Rosa Luxemburg said, “Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to Socialism or regression into Barbarism.” Stating that communism will involve the abolition of exchange value and classes isn’t something communists say just because it’s a nice idea, but because these things would be necessary to resolve the contradictions between wage labour and capital inherent within capitalism. Communism will happen because it is historically necessary, it isn’t just a good idea that should be imposed on the world.

If you want the analogy to work, it’s more as if you’re flying in an obviously broken helicopter which at any minute could explode. I can tell from the helicopter as it currently exists how it needs to be fixed, and I can tell that if it is not fixed it will explode. There are two options available to us, one of which will have to happen - either the helicopter should explode, or we should fix the helicopter. It is impossible to maintain the helicopter as it currently exists because of the issues inherent within it.

Besides, there is historical precedent for the society I’m describing. Genuine organs of workers’ power have existed, in Russia from 1917 - 1918, during the Spanish Civil War, during the Hungarian Uprising in 1956, etc. Also, it’s not as if socialists don’t have an understanding of or an analysis of why countries like the USSR failed. The USSR was not a country that existed with the right conditions to build socialism - it was an isolated country with a backwards economy. Socialism needs to be built in an advanced capitalist economy through democratic organs of workers’ control and cannot exist in isolation. If it is attempted, it will be constantly hounded and attacked internationally, and the lack of productive power will mean that social antagonisms will develop between those who have material goods and those deprived of them. This will lead to the development of a bureaucracy to manage these antagonisms.
 
You might even try a small scale model - say a household of likeminded individuals and see how that turns out.
This really has nothing to do with modes of production on an international scale. Still, I’ve never lived in a household which was organized in anyway that could be seen as capitalist. Most of the homes I’ve lived in were much more communist in nature. People contribute to the household according to what they want to do and what others expect of them, and take as they wish and as others expect of them.
“No,” you say, “my ‘communism’ will be different because they got it all wrong in the past and Marx knew something about human beings that they did not. Being as brilliant and insightful as Marx, I am competent to bring about success where they have all failed.” How many resulting casualties is the threshold at which you will admit that your rendition of communism is no better than anyone else’s and that Marx just got it wrong?
As I said above, communism is a mode of production that will be produced by the antagonisms inherent to capitalism. The working class will bring about communism as a result of historical necessity. It isn’t something I as an individual can create, or plan to.

Besides, nobody has died from communism. Totalitarian states like the USSR and the PRC killed communism, and prevented any chance of it developing. They betrayed the working class revolutions that they originated from.
Now there is a workable form of “communalism” which has had some success in the past and even today - the monastaries and monastic communities that still dot the landscape around the globe, but all of these would attribute their success to supernatural intervention (grace) of some sort, not purely human good will, and none would be so foolish as to attempt to expand their communities to include everyone in the wider society.
Could supernatural intervention help the formation of global communism?
There are periods of discernment and formation which are necessary to determine who ought to be permitted into the community and how they are to be properly formed into the lifestyle.
People are the products of the material reality they find themselves in, not the other way around. The way in which people are is shaped by the mode of production they live under.
 
I dislike Jordan Peterson

Nazi Germany wasn’t communist, it was explicitly anti-communist and anti-Marxist.

I feel like I’ve said this to you before, but understand that Marx isn’t just saying that there is some kind of better society that we ought to strive for. He isn’t saying that capitalism has its pros and cons but there’s an even better society we should give a go, communism. He had a dialectical view of the development of history, and he is arguing that certain contradictions that are inherent to capitalism will undoubtedly and ultimately resolve themselves through the creation of a new mode of production, communism. His argument is that communism comes from capitalism, that communism is the result of certain antagonisms that are inherent to capitalism. It doesn’t make sense to critique the Marxist position as you are doing, and it can only come from a fundamental misunderstanding of Marxism. You would have to critique Marx’s analysis of capitalism. Simply put, Marx is arguing that there are certain antagonisms inherent to capitalism that will lead to workers’ revolution, that the material reality of the world under capitalism will develop in such a way that workers’ revolution will prove inevitable, and communism will be the synthesis of these antagonisms. These antagonisms will have to resolve themselves somehow and since they are inherent to capitalism, this will have to involve the replacement of capitalism. This can either be through the formation of a socialist society, or through regression to an earlier mode of production. As Rosa Luxemburg said, “Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to Socialism or regression into Barbarism.” Stating that communism will involve the abolition of exchange value and classes isn’t something communists say just because it’s a nice idea, but because these things would be necessary to resolve the contradictions between wage labour and capital inherent within capitalism. Communism will happen because it is historically necessary, it isn’t just a good idea that should be imposed on the world.

If you want the analogy to work, it’s more as if you’re flying in an obviously broken helicopter which at any minute could explode. I can tell from the helicopter as it currently exists how it needs to be fixed, and I can tell that if it is not fixed it will explode. There are two options available to us, one of which will have to happen - either the helicopter should explode, or we should fix the helicopter. It is impossible to maintain the helicopter as it currently exists because of the issues inherent within it.

Besides, there is historical precedent for the society I’m describing. Genuine organs of workers’ power have existed, in Russia from 1917 - 1918, during the Spanish Civil War, during the Hungarian Uprising in 1956, etc. Also, it’s not as if socialists don’t have an understanding of or an analysis of why countries like the USSR failed. The USSR was not a country that existed with the right conditions to build socialism - it was an isolated country with a backwards economy. Socialism needs to be built in an advanced capitalist economy through democratic organs of workers’ control and cannot exist in isolation. If it is attempted, it will be constantly hounded and attacked internationally, and the lack of productive power will mean that social antagonisms will develop between those who have material goods and those deprived of them. This will lead to the development of a bureaucracy to manage these antagonisms.
Bravo. Now let’s take into account what communism seems to either take for granted or believes can be manipulated or controlled (by themselves? a mob? government?): human beings. Attempts at equalization take away all forms of incentive unless you’re either promoting a belief that people will suddenly become altruistic or those with the cognitive abilities will take on inherently stressful occupations, which is ridiculous. It’s moreover your contention that people will be compelled to become doctors, engineers or any other occupation that requires advanced/extended schooling in order to contribute to a society in which somebody delivering pizza is apportioned the same pay or property as said doctor or engineer. Why would somebody do that?
 
=Regular Atheist;14356163]
Nazi Germany wasn’t communist, it was explicitly anti-communist and anti-Marxist.
But not because of any reason other than Hitler’s view that communism was the largest socialist) competitor for the allegiance of the populace.
Besides, there is historical precedent for the society I’m describing. Genuine organs of workers’ power have existed, in Russia from 1917 - 1918, during the Spanish Civil War, during the Hungarian Uprising in 1956, etc. Also, it’s not as if socialists don’t have an understanding of or an analysis of why countries like the USSR failed. The USSR was not a country that existed with the right conditions to build socialism - it was an isolated country with a backwards economy. Socialism needs to be built in an advanced capitalist economy through democratic organs of workers’ control and cannot exist in isolation. If it is attempted, it will be constantly hounded and attacked internationally, and the lack of productive power will mean that social antagonisms will develop between those who have material goods and those deprived of them. This will lead to the development of a bureaucracy to manage these antagonisms.
This is the most remarkable thing you have said, and more than once, that we should depend on capitalism to be an advanced, free, and wealthy society, then plunge it back into nearly universal poverty and oppression with socialism. It is truly an astounding position.

Jon
 
Hitler’s view of Bolshevism was as the enemy. It was the enemy that had to be engaged before it began to move West. The Germans had their Fatherland and the Communists their Motherland. An anti-Russian poster from the period depicts Jesus hanging on the cross and the words beneath translate as: “They don’t believe this.”

Stamped on the belt buckles of German soldiers was the phrase Gott mit uns, or God with us.

Ed
 
Now you can continue to insist that your low-resolution conception will not produce the same results, but will be different from all those disastrous attempts merely because you add a bit more colour and aesthetic wonderfulness to it, but at some point you have to get into the details and engineer those details into existence in order to make it fly.

You might even try a small scale model - say a household of likeminded individuals and see how that turns out.
Anyone who has shared a house or suite with several others will tell you that it doesn’t often turn out as you claim. Look at marriages and families trying to exist in a wider nonsupportive culture of dissolution, narcissism and egoism - they are less than 50% successful today.
 
Could supernatural intervention help the formation of global communism?

People are the products of the material reality they find themselves in, not the other way around. The way in which people are is shaped by the mode of production they live under.
The reason that supernatural intervention will not help the formation of global communism is because people are not products of the material reality they find themselves in nor are they shaped by the mode of production they live under.

People will inherently rebel against that kind of cookie-cutter manipulation by external forces, which is why communism will never work on a large scale. Your view of human beings isn’t personalist, isn’t organic, nor does it contain within it the basic respect personal autonomy required to ground any human society. You demonstrate that yourself by insisting that people are “products” of the material, when viewing people in that light reduces each individual to the status of an object or thing.

The supernatural will only intervene within the deeply personal existence that is each individual. Your view of human beings is flawed from the start which is why it won’t ever accommodate the richness of each individual, but will at some point in the process begin to inflict on each person your “people are [merely] products” paradigm. At which point, it will become dictatorial and totalitarian to the degree it must in order to force the paradigm to work.
 
Click on the link to see how serious I was.

youtube.com/watch?v=cQKzesTq0Wo
You might want to master the tricky art of using BB Codes before moving on to establishing large socialist political entities. 😃

Most of what was attributed to me in your post was from someone who was not me.

That may not matter to someone who believes we are merely products of the material and whatever mode of production is in play at the moment – assuming your view aligns with Regular Atheist’s – but li’l ole narcissist that I am, it matters to me that my ideas are properly represented.
 
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