C
cknick
Guest
So in other words it is all good-with the exception of giving the homilies from time to time-whew…thanks for the clarification.
Our Seminarian is Distributing the Eucharist During Communion, Is This an Abuse?
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M
malphono
Guest
In the “old” (i.e. pre-conciliar) days, some parishes often had “communion services” in the early morning to accommodate those who were unable to attend the scheduled Mass(es). In those times, it was unusual for a priest to have permission to celebrate two Masses, and more than that was practically unheard of. One parish I am familiar with had 3 priests on staff and 4 Masses, and all filled to overflowing. Each presided at one and on a rotating basis, one of the 3 was permitted to offer a second Mass. The pastor did the “communion service” at 6am on Sundays and Holy Days.
Of course the situation was much different than that noted in the OP. There were no “extraordinary ministers” to be considered. But even now, I believe it’s only those in Major Orders (bishop, priest, deacon) who are considered to be “ordinary ministers” of the Eucharist. All others are extra-ordinary.
Of course the situation was much different than that noted in the OP. There were no “extraordinary ministers” to be considered. But even now, I believe it’s only those in Major Orders (bishop, priest, deacon) who are considered to be “ordinary ministers” of the Eucharist. All others are extra-ordinary.
A
Aramis
Guest
The ***only ordinary ministers ***of Holy Communion are Deacons, Priests, and Bishops. (CIC canon 910)
Canon 230 provides that Acolytes are the primary EMHC’s, and the only EMHC’s that have any actual long-term standing as such. Canon 230 also permits laymen to fulfil an acolyte’s duties including that of EMHC.
Canon 230 provides that Acolytes are the primary EMHC’s, and the only EMHC’s that have any actual long-term standing as such. Canon 230 also permits laymen to fulfil an acolyte’s duties including that of EMHC.
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PJM
Guest
Do you wish to know what is “right” or what is permitted?
If he is a Deacon, and he may be depending on what year of formation he is in. Both are “Ok”
If he is not a Deacon, neither is right, however his bishop has the authority to utilize indults already granted and permit these actions.
The idea of “Communion services” in replacement for Mass, is according to Rome, an abuse under all circumstances that cannot meet the criteria of Urgent need, no priest CAN BE available, not will be available.
Love and prayers,
Pat
J
jmjconder
Guest
Actually you are not questioning his authority (tho I can see he may see it as such) rather you are proclaiming the teaching of the Church.
First of all - if anything should “replace” the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass it would be the Liturgy of the Hours because it too is the Liturgy of the universal Church. A Communion service is not!
Second you can refer Father to the published document by the USCCB and Committee of Divine Worship on the topic of Weekday Celebrations. It explains this topic very clearly.
Our parish was not in line with these guidelines and I wrote a letter to the Bishop. The Communion services have ceased and the Liturgy of the Hours are prayed in the absence of our priest for daily Mass.
usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/weekday.shtml
C
Cat
Guest
Why don’t you call your diocese and ask your questions? Don’t you think you are more likely to receive a correct answer from the salaried experts rather than a bunch of people on a message board that you don’t know from Adam?
The diocescan experts on liturgy and the rubrics will have a complete understanding, not just a partial understanding gained from reading the various documents through a few times. There may be exceptions, extenuating circumstances, extraordinary circumstances, etc. regarding this particular seminarian and your parish. Your diocese will know this. All of us won’t know.
I can see asking for the opinions of the population of a computer message board, but to ask real-life questions about liturgy–I just don’t get this. It doesn’t make sense to me. If the liturgy is so very important, then ask the experts, not a bunch of anonymous amateurs online.
The diocescan experts on liturgy and the rubrics will have a complete understanding, not just a partial understanding gained from reading the various documents through a few times. There may be exceptions, extenuating circumstances, extraordinary circumstances, etc. regarding this particular seminarian and your parish. Your diocese will know this. All of us won’t know.
I can see asking for the opinions of the population of a computer message board, but to ask real-life questions about liturgy–I just don’t get this. It doesn’t make sense to me. If the liturgy is so very important, then ask the experts, not a bunch of anonymous amateurs online.
M
malphono
Guest
Actually, the OP question was less about liturgy and more about discipline and law. But that really doesn’t matter.
One can, of course, refer all such questions to the pastor and/or the chancery in the first (or second, as the case may be) place, but perhaps it’s not a bad idea to post the question here first. It may actually give the poster some idea of how to proceed. It may also give an idea of what kind of responses he/she may get from the pastor and/or chancery and perhaps even how do deal with them.
Just my :twocents:
One can, of course, refer all such questions to the pastor and/or the chancery in the first (or second, as the case may be) place, but perhaps it’s not a bad idea to post the question here first. It may actually give the poster some idea of how to proceed. It may also give an idea of what kind of responses he/she may get from the pastor and/or chancery and perhaps even how do deal with them.
Just my :twocents:
C
cknick
Guest
fear…
The last time i asked questions at the diocese, I was called into the office…my pastor was very upset (for 1 1/2 hrs), and i was disciplined. It doesn’t change the fact that I was partially correct, the bottom line was the he got into trouble, and I probably got into worse trouble.
That is why I won’t go to the diocese.
B
bilop
Guest
Well, you shouldn’t really go to the diocese until after you have first spoken to the pastor, and then only if it is a serious matter.
But it is very good that you care about things being done the right way.
God Bless
J
Joannm
Guest
This is odd because when my husband was in formation for the diaconate he was encouraged to be active in liturgical ministry.Perhaps you misunderstoond. I was in the Diaconate program for 3 years ( until kids 4 and 5 came along)
What was asked of us was that if we were involved in those ministries, then we should stop them until told otherwise.
Once we were instituted as Readers, then we could (and should) Read at Mass. And then, when they advanced and were Instituted as Acolytes, then (and only then) were they to assist in the distribution of Holy Communion.
Seminarians, who are also canidates towards Holy Orders, generally follow the same format.
Their time as a Reader is generally done in the seminary, but the time as an Acolyte is timed to correspond with the parish internship. The internship the time where they spend a few months living in a parish rectory and participainting the life of the parish. THis is the opportunuty for them to see first hand what the life of a parish priest is so they can make a more informed discernment on if this is the life for them.
Part of that is the distribution of Holy Communion. And that is only an abuse if their are sufficent clergy present to distribute the Eucharist.
C
cknick
Guest
I’ve tried the “pastor first” way. It sounds easy but it is very difficult because he is always busy. He told me to “come find him” when I have a question…good luck, then to face what? I’m shaking just thinking about it.
I’d would really rather ask here, then highlight the specific references then have him review it at a time that he feels he can address it.
Wanting and caring that the magisterium is followed, doesn’t make process easier, in fact, I feel compelled to take risks when I know I will be hurt. It defies self protective impulses and logic.
I’d would really rather ask here, then highlight the specific references then have him review it at a time that he feels he can address it.
Wanting and caring that the magisterium is followed, doesn’t make process easier, in fact, I feel compelled to take risks when I know I will be hurt. It defies self protective impulses and logic.
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bilop
Guest
You could always try sending him an e-mail or a letter.
Don’t let it hurt you. Why should his words have any impact when you are doing the right thing? Just because he is a pastor doesn’t make him right.
God Bless
C
cknick
Guest
HE DOESN’T ACCEPT EMAILS.
I COULD DROP OFF A LETTER, WHICH I’VE DONE BEFORE, BUT UNLESS I DROP IT OFF ANONYMOUSLY, I’LL GET CALLED INTO THE OFFICE.
MOST OF THE TIME I’LL DROP THEN RUN
I COULD DROP OFF A LETTER, WHICH I’VE DONE BEFORE, BUT UNLESS I DROP IT OFF ANONYMOUSLY, I’LL GET CALLED INTO THE OFFICE.
MOST OF THE TIME I’LL DROP THEN RUN
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PJM
Guest
No and maybe.
My understanding is that ONLY bishops, priest and deacons are “Ordinary” ministers of the Eucharist.
Having said that, an Indult for “extrodinary” lay use was requested in 1979 and approved conditionally, [actually in everyday use, they are in violation of the Indult, and become “very-ordianry.”]
There is clearly however a Roman preference for male gender Eucharisitc ministers, and the fact that this is an acolyte, certainly gives him equal status in this application, as a “religious.” Both emergency subs. This is not an emergecy!
Father is completly correct in that their is a 6:30 mass that one could attend, therefore nulifying any reasonable “NEED” for a communion service. No real nedd = abuse!
I tried to pull the relevant Canon Law info for you, but could not log on the site.
If you are able to give evidence of the position, than proceed with prayer, care and charity. Accept respectfully his decision.
If you are unable to find supporting evidence than simply pray for him.
Love and prayers,
S
SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
I always find it helpful to pick my battles. I want to be thought of as the person worth listening to because I bring up issues that are important, not the person to be ignored because I yammer over every little thing.HE DOESN’T ACCEPT EMAILS.
I COULD DROP OFF A LETTER, WHICH I’VE DONE BEFORE, BUT UNLESS I DROP IT OFF ANONYMOUSLY, I’LL GET CALLED INTO THE OFFICE.
MOST OF THE TIME I’LL DROP THEN RUN
Anonymity or “dropping and running” don’t strike me as the actions of someone who has an important issue and expects it to be taken seriously.
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bilop
Guest
I don’t understand? You talk about “severe tongue lashing” and “called into the office” like you’re a misbehaving child. The pastor has no right to abuse you for raising legitimate issues, and you shouldn’t take it.HE DOESN’T ACCEPT EMAILS.
I COULD DROP OFF A LETTER, WHICH I’VE DONE BEFORE, BUT UNLESS I DROP IT OFF ANONYMOUSLY, I’LL GET CALLED INTO THE OFFICE.
MOST OF THE TIME I’LL DROP THEN RUN
If he yells, yell back. If he’s abusive, report him to the bishop.
God Bless
J
John_Lilburne
Guest
I think this is far from clear on the information available.
I the document jmjconder referred to at usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/weekday.shtml it has:
"4. When daily Mass is scheduled in a parish, it is usually not appropriate to schedule a Liturgy of the Word with Distribution of Holy Communion. This rite is designed for “those who are prevented from being present at the community’s celebration.” When necessary, the scheduling of these celebrations should never detract from "the celebration of the Eucharist [as] the center of the entire Christian life.“6 Such celebrations should never be seen as an equal choice with participation at Mass.”
Saying “usually not appropriate” is a long way from “always a liturgical abuse”. The official liturgical book on this is the 1973 Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass. It has “16. Communion may be given outside Mass on any day and at any hour.” (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 644). It then lists how this is restricted on Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday.
So, since this was not on these days, to say “this is clearly a liturgical abuse” you need to show which directions of a bishop have been breached.
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
CKNick:
You original first question, about the distribution of the Holy Eucharist, shouldn’t have been a problem, although I would wonder why a layperson would be holding a Communion Service when Priests or Deacons were available. Esp. since this is the Service in the Military Archdiocese for when Priests aren’t available -
Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest
milarch.org/policy/pop_sun_celebration_excrpt.html
Certification of Training & Request for the Appointment of a Catholic Lay Leader (Doc Form)
tinyurl.com/n5acdd
Your Seminarian shouldn’t be purifying the Sacred Vessels unless the Priest is unable to do so (I know one who is physically disabled) AND there is no Deacon available to do the duty. and, NO Seminarian should EVER deliver the homily during of the celebration of the Mass on Sunday or on a Holy Day of Obligation. That is the job of the SHEPHERD OF SOULS - THE PRIEST or the BISHOP (either one can delegate it to the Deacon, but not to a Seminarian). These, esp. the last, haven’t been assigned by your Bishop, unless he’s in violation of the G.I.R.M.
Assigned Downloading, Linking & Reading - The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
Vatican Copy - Online - Link
tinyurl.com/kmepha
USCCB COPY - pdf
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml
I would download & read this - In this case, information is good, but you need to know what you’re talking about. Make sure the Seminarian is doing all of the activities you’re saying he is, and that he hasn’t been Ordained as a Deacon, then ask him & your pastor POLITELY for clarification before proceeding further.
Remember, we all make mistakes, and this isn’t a fishing expedition. You want to now if he plans to distribute the Eucharist at the “Communion Service”, and to verify that he’s been giving the homilies at Masses on Sunday & Days of Obligation and that priests are delegating the purification of the Sacred Vessels to this Seminarian.
Be focused and be polite. Your job now is to get information. Note the dates & times of contacts, who you met with & what was said… And, don’t be afraid to let them know you’re keeping a record if things get tense, but never get impolite or uncharitable yourself.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
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