Our Seminarian is Distributing the Eucharist During Communion, Is This an Abuse?

[cknick]

I don’t understand? You talk about “severe tongue lashing” and “called into the office” like you’re a misbehaving child. The pastor has no right to abuse you for raising legitimate issues, and you shouldn’t take it.

If he yells, yell back. If he’s abusive, report him to the bishop.

God Bless

I have (no I didn’t respond in anger.) I did report the severity of how I was treated to the Bishop’s office. The first time they directed me back to the pastor. The second time
there was no response from the Bishops representative. The pastor did however write a full page clarification in the Bulletin.

It really bothered me that there was no response from the Diocese, but I was happy with the results with the clarification of misinformation.

There has been a lot of other issues at the Diocese lately because of sexual abuse lawsuits, etc. Maybe they have been too pre-occupied to respond, or just decided to handle it with the Pastor.

 

[cknick]

CKNick:

You original first question, about the distribution of the Holy Eucharist, shouldn’t have been a problem, although I would wonder why a layperson would be holding a Communion Service when Priests or Deacons were available. Esp. since this is the Service in the Military Archdiocese for when Priests aren’t available -
Sunday Celebration in the Absence of a Priest
milarch.org/policy/pop_sun_celebration_excrpt.html
Certification of Training & Request for the Appointment of a Catholic Lay Leader (Doc Form)
tinyurl.com/n5acdd

Your Seminarian shouldn’t be purifying the Sacred Vessels unless the Priest is unable to do so (I know one who is physically disabled) AND there is no Deacon available to do the duty. and, NO Seminarian should EVER deliver the homily during of the celebration of the Mass on Sunday or on a Holy Day of Obligation. That is the job of the SHEPHERD OF SOULS - THE PRIEST or the BISHOP (either one can delegate it to the Deacon, but not to a Seminarian). These, esp. the last, haven’t been assigned by your Bishop, unless he’s in violation of the G.I.R.M.

Assigned Downloading, Linking & Reading - The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
Vatican Copy - Online - Link
tinyurl.com/kmepha
USCCB COPY - pdf
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml

I would download & read this - In this case, information is good, but you need to know what you’re talking about. Make sure the Seminarian is doing all of the activities you’re saying he is, and that he hasn’t been Ordained as a Deacon, then ask him & your pastor POLITELY for clarification before proceeding further.

Remember, we all make mistakes, and this isn’t a fishing expedition. You want to now if he plans to distribute the Eucharist at the “Communion Service”, and to verify that he’s been giving the homilies at Masses on Sunday & Days of Obligation and that priests are delegating the purification of the Sacred Vessels to this Seminarian.

Be focused and be polite. Your job now is to get information. Note the dates & times of contacts, who you met with & what was said… And, don’t be afraid to let them know you’re keeping a record if things get tense, but never get impolite or uncharitable yourself.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

It isn’t the miitary. These priests are on retreat this week. I believe the seminarian is an acolyte, because he has been purifying the vessels at the masses he assists at, for several weeks now. He will not become a Deacon until next year, and he is returning to the Seminary in two weeks to continue his studies. From this thread, I’m gathering that most serious abuse is when the seminarians give the homilies. It hasn’t been the first time for a seminarian at our Parish to do this. It occurs both during weekday masses and on Sundays. In fact there have been many compliments given to him because people loved his homilies. I felt very sorry for him though, because one time, someone he was living with in the rectory shut off the electricity before he could print out his homily, and so he felt at a loss during that particular homiletic address. At any rate, our pastor is the co-chair of our deanery. I would think he would be aware of, and follow all the rubrics.
Our parish is considered mission territory. Does this indicate that there is more flexibility with rules?

 

[cknick]

I always find it helpful to pick my battles. I want to be thought of as the person worth listening to because I bring up issues that are important, not the person to be ignored because I yammer over every little thing.

Anonymity or “dropping and running” don’t strike me as the actions of someone who has an important issue and expects it to be taken seriously.

I’ve found it is the only way to get the message across without getting called in. At least he is getting the information he needs to make informed decisions!

 

[Cluny]

In this instance the Communion service is clearly an liturgical abuse for the faithful could attend the 6:30 Mass. Although even if the 6:30 Mass was not scheduled a Communion service scheduled in place of a daily Mass is unnecessary. I understand many Catholics have daily Mass as part of their prayer life…a Communion service is not the same as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it often appears that way when it is scheduled as its “replacement” as in these types of instances.

I believe that in such a case on a weekday, it’s preferred to celebrate one of the Hours from the DIvine Office (Liturgy of the Hours).

 

[Provigil]

Any lay-person can distribute Holy Communion. It is NOT an abuse.

These people are trained and now what is different, their names are sent to the bishop for approval, so in essence, he could deny them taking into consideration their life-style.
;previoiusly any person could distribte Communion, but with the recent change, you must be trained and , your pastor has to bring these names for approval by the bishop.

I was reading earlier where the Eucharistic Minister can purify the chalices–WITH A RECENT CHANGE BY THE POPE, THIS CAN NO LONGER BE DONE BY A EUCHARISTIC MINISTER, IT IS NOW RESERVD FOR THE PRIEST ONLY/

Some churches have over 800 familes that attend; would you expect the priest to distribute Communion by himself; furthermore; these Eucharistic Ministers go to nursing homes and bring Communion to the sick.

So, be at ease because this is allowed, but as for purifying, THEY CAN NO LONGER DO THIS. IT IS RESERVED FOR THE PRIEST!!!

I hope this makes more things lucid. God bless you for asking.
PROVIGIL
;

 

[Cluny]

So…what i need to say/do in response is …

(fully knowing that my pastor will give me a severe tongue lashing for questioning his authority…and i will be shaking like a leaf…)

Like someone with a similar name getting dismissed from the Parish Council?

Maybe you should simply be silent.

It doesn’t change the fact that I was partially correct,

Which means that nether does it change the facdt that you were partially WRONG!

 

[Provigil]

BRENDAN:

You certainly are misinformed about an acolyte, An acolyte is just another name for altar-bor or girl. It has NOTHIG to do with Communion.

So, please remember that an acolyte CANNOT GIVE OUT COMMUNION!!!

An acolyte is just an altar server.

An an acolyte CAN NOT PURIFY THE CHALICE.

I am just making you aware of your statement about this is UNTRUE.

In the seminary, there is the office of READER, EUCHARISTIC MINISTER, and DEACON.

May God bless us in our efforts.

 

[cknick]

Like someone with a similar name getting dismissed from the Parish Council?

Maybe you should simply be silent.

Which means that nether does it change the facdt that you were partially WRONG!

Okay Cluny,
Like the Pastor said…“It doesn’t matter how bad what you think “so and so” did, it is your responsibility to be obedient and learn to be submissive!” So that IS the lesson here?
Even with regard to liturgical abuse? Given the fact that he posted a full page article, he still won’t let me back on council…I asked, and the answer was no. I’m trying to let that go, and wish everyone else would, too. It hurt…ALOT!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

You certainly are misinformed about an acolyte, An acolyte is just another name for altar-bor or girl. It has NOTHIG to do with Communion.

So, please remember that an acolyte CANNOT GIVE OUT COMMUNION!!!

That is not true. An acolyte is a ministry within the Church. Please note the homily contained within the 1970 Roman Missle for the Institution of Acolytes:

Dear sons in Christ, as people chosen for the ministry of acolyte, you will have a special role in the Church’s ministry. The summit and source of the Church’s life is the eucharist, which builds up the Christian community and makes it grow. It is your responsibility to assist priests and deacons in carrying out their ministry, and as special ministers to give holy communion to the faithful at the liturgy and to the sick.

And please also note the invitation to prayer from the Institution of Acolytes:

God of mercy
through your only Son
you entrusted the bread of life to your Church.
Bless + our brothers
who have been chosen for the ministry of acolyte.
Grant that they may be faithful
in the service of your altar
and in giving to others the bread of life;
may they grow always in faith and love,
and so build up your Church.

And of course the actual institution of Acolytes:

Institution

1. Each candidate goes to the bishop, who gives him a vessel with the bread or wine to be consecrated, saying:

Take this vessel with bread (wine)
for the celebration of the eucharist.
Make your life worthy of your service
at the table of the Lord and of his Church.

The acolyte answers: Amen.

Liturgy of the Eucharist

1. At the preparation of the gifts, the acolytes (or some of them, if the number is large) present the patens with the bread and the chalice with the wine.

1. The acolytes receive communion immediately after the deacons.

1. In the Mass of institution the bishop may direct the acolyte as a special minister to help in giving communion to the faithful.

Provigil:

In the seminary, there is the office of READER, EUCHARISTIC MINISTER, and DEACON.

In seminary I received the formal ministries of Lector and Acolyte and after those I was ordained a transitional Deacon.

 

[Aramis]

BRENDAN:

You certainly are misinformed about an acolyte, An acolyte is just another name for altar-bor or girl. It has NOTHIG to do with Communion.

I will direct your attention to canon law, in English translation, as posted on the vatican’s own website:
Can. 230
§1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.

Nevertheless, the conferral of these ministries does not grant them the right to obtain support or remuneration from the Church.

§2. Lay persons can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.

§3. **When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, **lay persons, **even if they are not **lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PV.HTM (emphasis mine)

Can. 910
§1. The ordinary minister of holy communion is a bishop, presbyter, or deacon.

§2. The extraordinary minister of holy communion is an acolyte or another member of the Christian faithful designated according to the norm of ⇒ can. 230, §3.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P38.HTM (again, emphasis mine)

Canon Law makes it clear that an acolyte is the designated extraordinary minister of Holy communion; Can. 230 makes it clear that other laymen serve in the place of acolytes.

Alter servers are not Acolytes; all Acolytes are altar servers, and permanent EMHC’s, and more.

Oh, and females may not be admitted to either ministry…

 

[benedictgal]

The one point I question is why the Communion Services? Is it simply because there is no daily Mass? That would be an abuse of the original intent of Communion Services.

Communion Services are meant for remote areas that do not have access to regular priest to celebrate Sunday Mass and that does not include any area within the US (to my knowledge). Communion Services are not to be offered in parishes that for some reason do not have a daily Mass scheduled on that day - and for sure in cities that have other parishes offering daily Masses.

Communion services are not supposed to happen during the week, like jmjconder indicated. Since daily Mass is optional and not obligatory, what the faithful should do, instead, is to gather together for the Liturgy of the Hours, or, if they are able to, make arrangements to go elsewhere to Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

I think this is far from clear on the information available.

I the document jmjconder referred to at usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/weekday.shtml it has:
"4. When daily Mass is scheduled in a parish, it is usually not appropriate to schedule a Liturgy of the Word with Distribution of Holy Communion. This rite is designed for “those who are prevented from being present at the community’s celebration.” When necessary, the scheduling of these celebrations should never detract from "the celebration of the Eucharist [as] the center of the entire Christian life.“6 Such celebrations should never be seen as an equal choice with participation at Mass.”

Saying “usually not appropriate” is a long way from “always a liturgical abuse”. The official liturgical book on this is the 1973 Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass. It has “16. Communion may be given outside Mass on any day and at any hour.” (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 644). It then lists how this is restricted on Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday.

So, since this was not on these days, to say “this is clearly a liturgical abuse” you need to show which directions of a bishop have been breached.

However, John, this document was written way before Redemptionis Sacramentum. The section that Phemie quoted certainly would apply in the case of the OP. Communion may certainly be given outside of Mass to those who are sick. However, the section that Phemie quoted from RS has very specific parameters.

 

[Brendan]

BRENDAN:

You certainly are misinformed about an acolyte, An acolyte is just another name for altar-bor or girl. It has NOTHIG to do with Communion.

Wow, that’s a lot of misinformation that you have.

On the subject of Instituted Acolytes, I would refer you to Pope Paul’s VI’s Apostolic Letter Minsteria Quedam.

Among the particular offices to be preserved and adapted to contemporary needs are those that are in a special way more closely connected with the ministries of the word and of the altar and that in the Latin Church are called the offices of reader and acolyte and the subdiaconate.

Acolyte was a minor order of clergy until this Letter. After that Acolyte became an Instituted Office. It is commonly reserved to those who are studying for Holy Orders, but some diocese will also Institute men specifically for this ministry. An altar boy emulates this office, but is not an Instituted Acolyte.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6MINORS.HTM

So, please remember that an acolyte CANNOT GIVE OUT COMMUNION!!!

On Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion

When the size of the congregation or the incapacity of the bishop, priest, or deacon requires it, the celebrant may be assisted by other bishops, priests, or deacons. If such ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are not present, “**the priest may call upon extraordinary ministers to assist him, i.e., duly instituted acolytes **or even other faithful who have been deputed for this purpose. In case of necessity, the priest may also depute suitable faithful for this single occasion (GIRM 162).”

usccb.org/liturgy/girm/lit4.shtml

An acolyte is just an altar server.

Read Pope Paul’s letter above

An an acolyte CAN NOT PURIFY THE CHALICE.

From the General Instruction of the Roman Missal

1. Likewise, when the distribution of Communion is completed, a duly instituted acolyte helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels. When no deacon is present, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes, and arranges them in the usual way.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1c

I am just making you aware of your statement about this is UNTRUE.

In the seminary, there is the office of READER, EUCHARISTIC MINISTER, and DEACON.

May God bless us in our efforts.

I’m sorry, but it is your statements that are untrue.

Especially about Eucharistic Ministers. Yes, I am sure there are Eucharistic Ministers in the seminary, as Instructors and Spiritual Advisors. But not as seminarians. A “Eucharistic Minister” is a person who may confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist. In other words, an Ordained Priest or Bishop.

A layperson might assist in the COMMUNICATION ( the bringing of the Eucharist to the Community) of the Eucharist.

Thus, correct term for a seminarian (or any other lay person) who assists in the distribution of Holy Commuion is “Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion”

Redemptionis Sacramentum

[154.] As has already been recalled, “the only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest”.[254] Hence the name “minister of the Eucharist” belongs properly to the Priest alone

[155.] In addition to the ordinary ministers there is the formally instituted acolyte, who by virtue of his institution is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion even outside the celebration of Mass.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

God Bless.

 

[Provigil]

The priest is not obliged to say daily mass and if he isn’t available, than, of course, some one who is a Echaristic minister will do the Communion Service.

Yes, Communion Servics are allowed, with the shortage of priests, what are they suppose to do, in fact, during the Communion Service, the person in charge can even read the Gospel, but he/she cannot say “The Lord be with you.”

They will have a first reading and the Gospel, thy will do the communion part, but they cannot give a blessing or say “The Lord be with you.”

This IS NOT LITURGICAL ABUSE especially when the bishop ok’s it/

However, THEY CANNOT GIVE A HOMILY, but can read he Gospel without saying "The Lord Be WIth You.

May God bless you in understanding this observation.

In HIs Divine Mercy,
PROVIGIL

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

However, THEY CANNOT GIVE A HOMILY, but can read he Gospel without saying "The Lord Be WIth You.

I think there’s some misunderstanding here. A homily can only be given by a bishop/priest or deacon because that’s what a homily is. If a layperson speaks, it cannot be properly called a homily since a homily by Church definition is given by ordained clergy. Its kind of like saying on the President can give a Presidential Address. The Speaker of the House may address the nation on TV but its not a Presidential Address since by definition that can only be given by the President.
Thus if the seminarian speaks at Mass after the Gospel then technically no homily has been given. The liturgical abuse is that the GIRM does not allow for anything other than a homily in Mass.

That’s a whole lot of technicality, but it is important to note.

In a Communion Service, at least in the directions of some diocese, a reflection by the leader is allowed.

 

[Provigil]

So what your seminarian is giving out Communion. Don’t you think he is as just qualified as a layman. Of course he is. He is still a layman until is a Deacon.

Why would this be an abuse to Communion?

Now for a layman to distributre Communion, he./she must go through training and than the pastor submits you name to the Bishop who either accept you or deny you- the pastor has nothing to do in this area of concern. And ALL DIOCESES has this policy.

It makes me wonder how many people actually believe this is the BODY and BLOOD of Christ?

I see people coming in with shorts when the church is air conditioned men or women wearing shorts when distrubution the Eucharist–THIS IS A SACRELIGIOUS!!!

Is it going to make you suffer for about 45 minutes without wearing shorts?

What are you going to do when you die, because death is ETERNAL!!!

Out of 7 days of the week, is it going to kill us to dress up fot a 45 minute service. Those know who are adults, should know better. If you went to visit the president, would you wear shorts at dinner.

I realize that your faith has to be STRONG to believe that this is THE REAL PRESENCE of CHRIST under the form BREAD and WINE, if we do not believe it, than, why are we receiving it, just for a show?

Soon coming will be the BODY OF CHRIST–how will you dress?

May the Holy Spirit give you a better of what is going on during the Liturgy.

PROVIGIL

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Instituted Acolytes are still allowed to purify vessels.

According to the CONGREGATIO CULTO DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM dated Oct 12, 2006:

usccb.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf

Paragraph 279 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal directs that the sacred vessels are to be purified by the priest, the deacon or an instituted acolyte. The status of this text as legislation has recently been clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts.

Who then purifies the sacred vessels?
As ordinary ministers of Holy Communion, the Priest and the Deacon purify the sacred vessels. The instituted acolyte, by reason of his office, “helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels.”

 

[Phemie]

The priest is not obliged to say daily mass and if he isn’t available, than, of course, some one who is a Echaristic minister will do the Communion Service.

In the OP’s situation, there is Mass EVERY day + a Communion Service. That flies in the face of Redemptionis Sacramentum which has made the guidelines clear: having a ‘communion service’ during the week should not occur unless there is no opportunity for Mass either on the preceding or the following Sunday.

There is clearly no NEED for a Communion Service and the parish would be better served by a lay-led Morning or Evening Prayer which is an official liturgy of the Church.

 

[Nick_in_MB]

In the OP’s situation, there is Mass EVERY day + a Communion Service. That flies in the face of Redemptionis Sacramentum which has made the guidelines clear: having a ‘communion service’ during the week should not occur unless there is no opportunity for Mass either on the preceding or the following Sunday

I have a question then regarding my parish. They have a communion service every monday morning, no mass is scheduled for that day. This is wrong I suppose?

I assumed it was because the closest churches are about 30 minutes away, there’s a lot of retirees here that don’t drive far most of the time, and that it’s more for them. Only because there’s another parish that changes their daily mass times and days every week, and they don’t replace them with communion services.
Of course, if it was the argument to have a communion service on monday because there’s no mass that day, I don’t get why there isn’t one on saturday morning then. Out of all the area parishes, only 1 has a saturday morning mass, and that’s about 1.5 hours from my parish.

 

[FrDavid96]

Posters here should be aware that in the liturgy of the Church, there really is no such thing as a weekday Communion service led by a layperson. The actual rite is specifically called “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest.” This rite is intended only for use on Sundays when access to a priest to celebrate Sunday Mass is completely impossible. There is no provision to have such services on weekdays (Holy Days of obligation, perhaps but not weekdays). Simply because the priest is “out of town” for a few days is never a legitimate reason to have such services on weekdays. These services are intended for “mission” territories, and more recently for places which have such an acute shortage of priests that the people of God would be deprived of Holy Communion for a prolonged period of time.

Someone rightly quoted documents which say that Communion outside of Mass may be distributed on any day (a few exceptions), but that does not refer to services led by laypeople—it’s a reference to Communion given to the sick or shut-ins or inmates, etc. Yes, there might be a “service” in a nursing home for example, but that’s very different from something happening in a church as a “replacement” for daily Mass.

Properly instituted Acolytes may purify the Sacred Vessels, but ONLY a “duly instituted acolyte” The instituted Acolyte is a potential Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion if there is a genuine need.
GIRM 192. Likewise, when the distribution of Communion is completed, a duly instituted acolyte helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels. When no deacon is present, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes, and arranges them in the usual way.

Under no circumstances may anyone who is not a bishop, priest or deacon with the faculties to preach deliver a homily at Mass. The Church has been quite clear on this, and has made many attempts to correct this abuse. See Redemptionis Sacramentum
[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.
Clearly, the Church is not only saying that this is not allowed, but also that it has always been forbidden–note the reference to canon 767.