Our Seminarian is Distributing the Eucharist During Communion, Is This an Abuse?

[cknick]

FR David,

Thank you for summarizing. I was feeling overwhelmed and confused with all the different information. I understand now, and will try to proceed as carefully as possible so as to not hurt anyone, and help get the church back on track.

 

[Phemie]

I have a question then regarding my parish. They have a communion service every monday morning, no mass is scheduled for that day. This is wrong I suppose?

Let me ask you this: How many people would come if it was a Liturgy of the Word without Communion? I’d be willing to bet that few would bother to show up because they ‘aren’t getting anything’. It’s a sad commentary on our consumer society that it is not sufficient for us to gather as a Church to pray.

We had Evening Prayer in my parish on the one day of the week with no Mass.
Format:
Proclamation of Light & Evening Thanksgiving **or **Invitation to Prayer
Hymn
Psalm
Psalm Prayer
Psalm
Psalm Prayer
Word of God
Silent Reflection
Gospel Canticle
Intercessions
Lord’s Prayer
Blessing
Sign of Peace

Some nights the only people present were the Leader, the Cantor and the Reader. Those who come to daily Mass for Communion didn’t come to EP because they weren’t “getting anything” and those who would walk 3 miles to pray the Rosary didn’t come because “what prayer, all they do is sing?”

 

[Nick_in_MB]

Let me ask you this: How many people would come if it was a Liturgy of the Word without Communion? I’d be willing to bet that few would bother to show up because they ‘aren’t getting anything’. It’s a sad commentary on our consumer society that it is not sufficient for us to gather as a Church to pray.

True, probably not many.
We have Adoration every Friday all day, with Benediction at 4:30pm. During Lent, that was followed by Stations of the Cross, with a fish fry afterwards. I was able to make it a few Fridays, and the church would get a few hundred people by 4:30. Now though, there’s about 3-4 cars in the parking lot at 4:30, and one is the deacon’s.

 

[Cluny]

FR David,

Thank you for summarizing. I was feeling overwhelmed and confused with all the different information. I understand now, and will try to proceed as carefully as possible so as to not hurt anyone, and help get the church back on track.

cnick, to the extent you get yourself back on track, you’ve helped the Church get back on track that much.

Given the fact that he posted a full page article, he still won’t let me back on council…I asked, and the answer was no. I’m trying to let that go, and wish everyone else would, too. It hurt…ALOT!

Frankly, I can’t say I blame the priest at all.

Did it really hurt you–or just your pride?

 

[cknick]

cnick, to the extent you get yourself back on track, you’ve helped the Church get back on track that much.

Frankly, I can’t say I blame the priest at all.

Did it really hurt you–or just your pride?

Dear Cluny:

Are you finished poking fun, and rubbing salt in my wounds? As you can see from the above, as well as from the comments of others, “Just because he is Pastor, doesn’'t mean he is right.” I shouldn’t let him hurt me. Nor should you.

 

[cknick]

I would like to ask another question: There was an **ordained **priest, (from what I heard…authorized by the Bishop) who came to our Parish during Lent to give talks during our Lenten Mission. As part of this, He would come out, give his talk, then not say the Eucharistic prayers. He just said a few words of thanks (his talks were quite long) and then had the Eucharistic ministers help him distribute communion. I take it that all of the same rules above apply for those particular communion services too? I never received communion because I felt that it was abusive, but I wasn’t sure.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I would like to ask another question: There was an **ordained **priest, (from what I heard…authorized by the Bishop) who came to our Parish during Lent to give talks during our Lenten Mission. As part of this, He would come out, give his talk, then not say the Eucharistic prayers. He just said a few words of thanks (his talks were quite long) and then had the Eucharistic ministers help him distribute communion. I take it that all of the same rules above apply for those particular communion services too? I never received communion because I felt that it was abusive, but I wasn’t sure.

Was the priest saying other Masses for the parish?

 

[Phemie]

It would be considered “abusive” for a priest to (con)celebrate more Masses than necessary on a Sunday. If he’s already said (or is scheduled to later say) his Mass for the day then it is unnecessary for him to concelebrate the Mass.

While it is more proper for the visiting priest to come back out to distribute communion, it is not unusual to “give him a break” seeing that he is preaching all the Masses.

In the situation described by the poster it appears that there was NO Mass, just the priest preaching and then giving out Communion. That’s not even a ‘service’.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

In the situation described by the poster it appears that there was NO Mass, just the priest preaching and then giving out Communion. That’s not even a ‘service’.

Yes, that was my mistake. I misread the post. I corrected my post.

 

[Phemie]

Yes, that was my mistake. I misread the post. I corrected my post.

That situation just made me wonder: Did they have Mass on the days that he preached that Mission? They seem to have more than one per day in her parish. Did the people go to those Masses and receive Communion? If they did they shouldn’t have been receiving at the 'Mission".

 

[John_Lilburne]

Posters here should be aware that in the liturgy of the Church, there really is no such thing as a weekday Communion service led by a layperson. The actual rite is specifically called “Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest.” This rite is intended only for use on Sundays when access to a priest to celebrate Sunday Mass is completely impossible. There is no provision to have such services on weekdays (Holy Days of obligation, perhaps but not weekdays). Simply because the priest is “out of town” for a few days is never a legitimate reason to have such services on weekdays. These services are intended for “mission” territories, and more recently for places which have such an acute shortage of priests that the people of God would be deprived of Holy Communion for a prolonged period of time.

Someone rightly quoted documents which say that Communion outside of Mass may be distributed on any day (a few exceptions), but that does not refer to services led by laypeople—it’s a reference to Communion given to the sick or shut-ins or inmates, etc. Yes, there might be a “service” in a nursing home for example, but that’s very different from something happening in a church as a “replacement” for daily Mass. …

The Roman Catholic Church does permit Communion Services, led by lay people, on weekdays. Redemptionis Sacramentum has:
“[166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the
diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant
permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was
possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the
following Sunday.”

If the Church did not permit these celebrations it would not say “must not easily grant permission”. It would say “may never grant permission”. Redemptionis Sacramentum can be looked up at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .

Fr David wrote “Someone rightly quoted documents which say that Communion outside of Mass may be distributed on any day (a few exceptions), but that does not refer to services led by laypeople—it’s a reference to Communion given to the sick or shut-ins or inmates, etc”. It is absurd to say this does not refer to services led by laypeople. The document I quoted was Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass, n. 16. The very next paragraph has the heading “THE MINISTER OF COMMUNION”.
“17. It belongs first of all to the priest and the deacon to minister communion to the faithful who ask to receive it. … It also belong to the an acolyte who has been properly instituted to give communion as a special minister when the priest and deacon are absent … The local Ordinary may give other special ministers the faculty to give communion whenever it seems necessary for the pastoral benefit of the faithful and no priest, deacon, or acolyte is available.” (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, pages 644-645).

What difference does it make whether people are sick or shut-ins? How does the ceremony stop being a “Communion Service” in that case?

 

[cknick]

that situation just made me wonder: Did they have mass on the days that he preached that mission? They seem to have more than one per day in her parish. Did the people go to those masses and receive communion? If they did they shouldn’t have been receiving at the 'mission".

no there was never masses said, except in the morning, at the regularly scheduled 6:30 and 8:30 mass. His mission talks were 7:00 pm, with communion offered afterward, with a quick word of thanks
(not even at the altar) then communion was passed out. I didn’t understand how he could do that. The hosts were most likely consecrated at the 8:30 am mass, but i’m not sure about that.

We have a large parish, our church holds about 800. The church was packed. After communion, he asked everyone to line up as if they were going to communion, then to keep the confession line moving, gave them guidelines as to how to say their confession (to keep it limited to two or three sins, and to just give a number for how long it had been since you had been.) he had everybody go to confession. It looked just like communion, but it was confession. It went very fast i heard (i didn’t stay because i had just gone the previous saturday.) there were about 7-8 priests.

 

[cknick]

the roman catholic church does permit communion services, led by lay people, on weekdays. Redemptionis sacramentum has:
“[166.] likewise, especially if holy communion is distributed during such celebrations, the
diocesan bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant
permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was
possible or would be possible to have the celebration of mass on the preceding or the
following sunday.”

if the church did not permit these celebrations it would not say “must not easily grant permission”. It would say “may never grant permission”. Redemptionis sacramentum can be looked up at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .

Fr david wrote “someone rightly quoted documents which say that communion outside of mass may be distributed on any day (a few exceptions), but that does not refer to services led by laypeople—it’s a reference to communion given to the sick or shut-ins or inmates, etc”. It is absurd to say this does not refer to services led by laypeople. The document i quoted was holy communion and the worship of the eucharist outside of mass, n. 16. The very next paragraph has the heading “the minister of communion”.
“17. It belongs first of all to the priest and the deacon to minister communion to the faithful who ask to receive it. … It also belong to the an acolyte who has been properly instituted to give communion as a special minister when the priest and deacon are absent … The local ordinary may give other special ministers the faculty to give communion whenever it seems necessary for the pastoral benefit of the faithful and no priest, deacon, or acolyte is available.” (the rites volume one, liturgical press, 1990, isbn: 0-8146-6015-0, pages 644-645).

What difference does it make whether people are sick or shut-ins? How does the ceremony stop being a “communion service” in that case?

this was an ordained redemptorist priest, giving a communion service after a talk. Two daily masses were already held in the morning, every morning he was there, but he still held the communion service. There was no penitential rite, which was shocking to me. Does ther have to be one at a communion service?

 

[cknick]

Was the priest saying other Masses for the parish?

Yes, at the 8:30 mass, But not in the usual form with a 7-15 minute homily. It was like 45 minutes, then proceeded with the mass. Wierd. I was having all kinds of conflicting feelings about his form. I wanted to leave mass, but didn’t.

 

[John_Lilburne]

this was an ordained redemptorist priest, giving a communion service after a talk. Two daily masses were already held in the morning, every morning he was there, but he still held the communion service. There was no penitential rite, which was shocking to me. Does ther have to be one at a communion service?

Yes. In “Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass” it has a chapter “Rite of Distributing Holy Communion Outside Mass”. In the “Long Rite with the Celebration of the Word” the Penitential Rite is in n. 28. (One of three versions can be used … (1). I confess …, (2). And Grant us Your Salvation or (3) Lord Have Mercy, Christ Have Mercy …). The same for the Short Rite (n. 43.).

The Ordinary Rite of Communion of the Sick requires it in n. 57.

But it is not required for the Short Rite of Communion of the Sick which is “used when communion is given in different rooms of the same building, such as a hospital. Elements from the ordinary rite may be added according to circumstances.” (n. 64).

 

[Phemie]

The Roman Catholic Church does permit Communion Services, led by lay people, on weekdays. Redemptionis Sacramentum has:
“[166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the
diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant
permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was
possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the
following Sunday.”

If the Church did not permit these celebrations it would not say “must not easily grant permission”. It would say “may never grant permission”. Redemptionis Sacramentum can be looked up at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .

But if they must not easily give permission for a Celebration of the Word with Communion in cases where Mass is available one Sunday out of two, why on earth would they give permission when there is already a daily Mass?

 

[cknick]

The fact of the matter is, it is over. It was during Lent, and I can’t go back and replay the services. I do know that there are abuses that go on at my parish, and I’ll try to address those with as much charity and timeliness as possible. There comes a point that there can be too much information to go through. I was reading on the vatican website today, and the point of correction is to try to stamp out those imperfections and go forward without abuses, which are made, sometimes innocently.
Thank you.

 

[cknick]

But if they must not easily give permission for a Celebration of the Word with Communion in cases where Mass is available one Sunday out of two, why on earth would they give permission when there is already a daily Mass?

I don’t know. There are a lot of unanswered questions. This Diocese has been struggling for years with the major sexual abuse scandals. ALOT of distortions could have encroached. Our Bishop is coming to visit our Parish for the first time later this month (with the exception of confirmations) in years! He has been busy with other more pressing legal matters, as well as regularly scheduled appointments.

 

[FrDavid96]

The Roman Catholic Church does permit Communion Services, led by lay people, on weekdays. Redemptionis Sacramentum has:
“[166.] Likewise, especially if Holy Communion is distributed during such celebrations, the
diocesan Bishop, to whose exclusive competence this matter pertains, must not easily grant
permission for such celebrations to be held on weekdays, especially in places where it was
possible or would be possible to have the celebration of Mass on the preceding or the
following Sunday.”

If the Church did not permit these celebrations it would not say “must not easily grant permission”. It would say “may never grant permission”. Redemptionis Sacramentum can be looked up at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .

Fr David wrote “Someone rightly quoted documents which say that Communion outside of Mass may be distributed on any day (a few exceptions), but that does not refer to services led by laypeople—it’s a reference to Communion given to the sick or shut-ins or inmates, etc”. It is absurd to say this does not refer to services led by laypeople. The document I quoted was Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass, n. 16. The very next paragraph has the heading “THE MINISTER OF COMMUNION”.
“17. It belongs first of all to the priest and the deacon to minister communion to the faithful who ask to receive it. … It also belong to the an acolyte who has been properly instituted to give communion as a special minister when the priest and deacon are absent … The local Ordinary may give other special ministers the faculty to give communion whenever it seems necessary for the pastoral benefit of the faithful and no priest, deacon, or acolyte is available.” (The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, pages 644-645).

What difference does it make whether people are sick or shut-ins? How does the ceremony stop being a “Communion Service” in that case?

You have taken that paragraph (166) out of it’s context. Note the opening words of 166 “…during such celebrations” what are those celebrations? Well, we have to look at the preceeding paragraphs to understand it:
[164.] “If participation at the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible on account of the absence of a sacred minister or for some other grave cause”,269 then it is the Christian people’s right that the diocesan Bishop should provide as far as he is able for some celebration to be held **on Sundays **for that community under his authority and according to the Church’s norms. **Sunday celebrations **of this specific kind, however, are to be considered altogether extraordinary. All Deacons or lay members of Christ’s faithful who are assigned a part in such celebrations by the diocesan Bishop should strive “to keep alive in the community a genuine ‘hunger’ for the Eucharist, so that no opportunity for the celebration of Mass will ever be missed, also taking advantage of the occasional presence of a Priest who is not impeded by Church law from celebrating Mass”.

[165.] It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of theEucharist. The diocesan Bishops, therefore, should prudently discern whether Holy Communion ought to be distributed in these gatherings. The matter would appropriately be determined in view of a more ample co-ordination in the Bishops’ Conference, to be put into effect **after the recognitio of the acts by the Apostolic See **through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It will be preferable, moreover, when both a Priest and a Deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as “presiding” over the celebration.

Now, once we put the text back into its proper context, it becomes clear that weekday celebrations are indeed not something that the Church forsees except in extreme (yes, extreme) circumstances.

“Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest” are just that: *Sunday * celebrations in the absence of a priest. They are not “weekday” celebrations when it’s not convenient for the priest to be there. There is a significant difference.

Paragraph 166 only applies if it is impossible for a priest to be present to celebrate Mass on both the preceeding and the following Sunday. That’s what the text says, but you are trying to apply it to a situation where the priest is indeed celebrating Masses on both Sundays, since the priest is only absent for the weekdays.

As for your last question :What difference does it make whether people are sick or shut-ins? How does the ceremony stop being a “Communion Service” in that case?

The answer is: there is a very significant difference between some kind of service in a nursing home, because such an event is an example of taking Communion to the sick, but there simply happens to be a number of people in need. This is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the same thing as having a service in a church building for the purpose of distributing Communion to people as a substitute for attending daily Mass. The distinction is quite obvious. Distributing Holy Communion in a hospital or nursing home is not the type of situation we’re discussing here on this thread, therefore it does not apply. My comment that it does not apply was perfectly appropriate. A little common sense would be in order here.

 

[Cluny]

Dear Cluny:

Are you finished poking fun, and rubbing salt in my wounds? As you can see from the above, as well as from the comments of others, “Just because he is Pastor, doesn’'t mean he is right.” I shouldn’t let him hurt me. Nor should you.

You’ve answered my question.

It’s your PRIDE that was hurt.