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Seamus_L
Guest
Sounds like alot of parishoners in this parish weren’t properly catechised, or else simply reject church teaching on homosexuality.
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tseleehw
Guest
It’s unfortunate that this had to happen, but sometimes hard decisions have to be made. It is good to see a priest and his bishop not taking the easy way out and doing the right thing. The media uproar and protests from parishoners can be ignored; it will die down eventually, and they will give up. If some leave the parish, then so be it.
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Hatikvah
Guest
And who said ignorance is bliss? You and I both know this isn’t benefiting them. (Also, there is always a strand that just ignores the teaching for the sake of inclusiveness.)
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Usige
Guest
I don’t know why people find the above so hard to understand. Yes, the Curch is a hospital for sinners, but you go to a hospital to get better. To have a minister that openly rejects Church teaching is like having a doctor does open heart surgery without gloves or washing their hands, because it’s not important. Many seem to see the Church as a hospice or a type of pallative care where the primary goal is to accept they are sick and make them comfortable as they prepare to die. The difference between a hospice and how many treat the Church is that a hospice patient accepts they are dying, but this article talks of people who are morally ill but think they are in full health.
I also don’t get why some many say they “don’t feel safe” in the Church anymore. He wasn’t kicked out of the Church or told he’d be beaten if he returned, but was simply told he could not be in ministry. I can only assume this is the whole junk about its not safe if you don’t accept every sin as a virtue.
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CaptFun
Guest
Homosexual Sex, Politics and Faith: In some “Catholic” circles there has been a breathtaking ascent from the depths of depravity and mortal sin … unto super-virtuosity that cannot be criticized even by high clergy.
This article does a good job however of showing where some folks’ priorities are.
A person with a privileged paid position in the Church loses his job once he decides to publicly contradict a well known Church position. OK. Why are people mad? He TOOK the job with the Church in the first place when their rules were the same.
Maybe he should take his talents to where he can unify them with his higher priorities.
The journalist who wrote the story presented the “spontaneous” singing of “All are Welcome” and interruption of the Creed as a positive I thought. :nope:
That bad old Church. Hurting peoples’ feelings again. Taking away someone’s job JUST because … oh never mind. < subtext for that article. It WAS a really good example of bad advocacy journalism though.
By the way. All ARE Welcome. But don’t track **** through the house as you come and call it your lifestyle … and expect it to be unchallenged forever. That actually is not charity.
It’d be indulging someone’s weaknesses … and not what the Church is supposed to do.
This article does a good job however of showing where some folks’ priorities are.
A person with a privileged paid position in the Church loses his job once he decides to publicly contradict a well known Church position. OK. Why are people mad? He TOOK the job with the Church in the first place when their rules were the same.
Maybe he should take his talents to where he can unify them with his higher priorities.
The journalist who wrote the story presented the “spontaneous” singing of “All are Welcome” and interruption of the Creed as a positive I thought. :nope:
That bad old Church. Hurting peoples’ feelings again. Taking away someone’s job JUST because … oh never mind. < subtext for that article. It WAS a really good example of bad advocacy journalism though.
By the way. All ARE Welcome. But don’t track **** through the house as you come and call it your lifestyle … and expect it to be unchallenged forever. That actually is not charity.
It’d be indulging someone’s weaknesses … and not what the Church is supposed to do.
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Beryllos
Guest
St. Paul wrote to Timothy:
Proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
Proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.
2 Timothy 4:2-5
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
As a non-Catholic, I find it difficult to understand when/where these rules are applied and when they aren’t–this all seems very arbitrary.
Just as one example, some of the (non-ordained) liturgical ministers/musicians at Seattle U have been in gay marriages for years, and this is all very open and doesn’t seem to be a problem for anyone. Does it depend on whether it’s a diocesean church versus an order chapel? Who decides when the rule will (rather abruptly) be enforced?
Just as one example, some of the (non-ordained) liturgical ministers/musicians at Seattle U have been in gay marriages for years, and this is all very open and doesn’t seem to be a problem for anyone. Does it depend on whether it’s a diocesean church versus an order chapel? Who decides when the rule will (rather abruptly) be enforced?
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Seamus_L
Guest
I’d say it’s all about who the pastor is. Obviously St Mary’s in Providence RI got a new priest Father Francesco Francese, who, thank God, wasn’t going to ignore the situation.
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Havard
Guest
That’s a great question. “These rules” ought to be applied consistently. Local bishops have a lot more control over diocesan parishes. When it comes to religious orders like the ones at the university of which you speak, things get more complicated… This is because in the case of religious orders, the superiors within their order are the ones who should be keeping tabs on it. Local bishops aren’t powerless, but their options (when it comes to these situations) can be limited by internal politics.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
I don’t know, to me this system seems inherently rigged—since a chapel under the jurisdiction of a religious order is “just as Catholic” as a diocesean parish. No? Or am I missing something here?
A rule that is only capriciously and arbitrarily applied when people feel doing so like it is no justice at all in my opinion.
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Havard
Guest
Can you elaborate on what you mean by rigged? By whom, and for what purpose?
I agree that arbitrary application is bad. E.g. sanctuary cities. The same law (8 U.S. Code § 1325) is enforced in X municipality, but not in Y municipality.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
By “rigged” I mean that if the powers-that-be are in favor of gay marriage, then no enforcement. But if they are opposed to gay marriage, then yes, there might be enforcement. And if the person in charge changes, you’re not “grandfathered” by being hired under a person that took a completely different stance toward the rules. Things could change at the drop of the hat. It’s capricious.
To my mind, the enforcement of law shouldn’t depend on who is running the show at any one particular point in time or in a given locality—at least not in theory, and most certainly not for an institution that one would think to be striving to be just and fair in both appearance and practice.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
I would say the system seems to be highly rigged in favor of the employer. One could easily be hired under false pretenses: “oh we don’t care about gay marriage around here.”
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commenter
Guest
The “rule” is for the benefit of the people. The entire gospel benefits people. I would argue that the people in Providence are benefitting from thorough preaching of the gospel, and the people in Seattle not benefitting much, if what you say is true.
Suppose it was learned that blond parents in the neighborhood are trying to prevent their teens from starting smoking, while the brunette parents are apathetic about it. If there is “unfairness” involved here, it would be the children of the indifferent parents who are hurt by it. There is always going to be inconsistencies within pastoral application of Catholicism, though there is 1000 times more inconsistency in Protestantism. The Magisterium, and dogma, are consistent within Catholicism. Pastoral applications will vary from time to time, place to place. Some people are more thorough than others, some bishops are emphasizing different priorities at a given time, and so on.
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MaryT777
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Usige
Guest
Let’s say you drive through an area everyday that has a speed limit of 35, but everyone does 50 in the area. On several instance you have seen police parked nearby but they have never pulled anyone over. After several years of driving through the area you get pulled over and given a ticket.
Was the system rigged because you broke the law but never suffered any consequences? Do you think a judge wold consider it entrapment because you were not pulled over befofe even when officers had seen you break the law on multiple occasions?
Anyone that work in the Church should be fully cognizant of what the Church teaches and should be fully aware that the Church has, can and will continue to seperate from ministry anyone who knowingly acts in a manner gravely against her teachings. I can almost guarantee you that he signed something saying that his employment was contingent on following Church teachings. There is zero chance that he was unaware of Church teachings on same sex marriage.
Was it unjust? No. What is unjust is bishops and pastors that do not correct people who put their souls and the souls of others in jeopardy. This is exactly what would have happened if they let him continue in ministry after simulating marriage. It essentially says that Catholic teaching on one of the sacraments is not a big deal and leads souls into dngerous territory.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
This isn’t about smoking, it’s about someone’s livelihood; and it’s much simpler to quit smoking (if one were somehow required to do so to keep a job) than it is to get a divorce.
So do you think the fact that “pastoral applications will vary from time to time, place to place” is not a problem of justice and fairness for the Church? Your post comes across as very apathetic on this point.
As for the Seattle U case, you’re free to verify it if you so choose.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
But surely the people that do the hiring (the pastor, etc.) should be equally aware of church teaching, no? If not more so? Shouldn’t the employer also bear some of the responsibility, especially given that person’s position of authority in the church? It seems that everyone was fine with this employee being gay-married until a new pastor came along. And again, shouldn’t the rules apply to everyone?
I don’t think your traffic analogy works, because at least here in California it would be entirely impractical to pull over and fine all violators of the speed limit. But it would be pretty simple for the Catholic Church to enforce a rule that says “no gay-married church musicians”; it’s just that they choose not to in certain cases for whatever reason.
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