Outcry at Providence church over firing of gay music director

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Bishops are relatively autonomous and discernment and application of various pastoral advice are up to them. Still, I think we should see more consistency, but this pastor did nothing wrong.
 
Dogma is one thing. It is public, and consistent from one century to another, from one place to another. The Church is “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic”. Pastoral application is variable, and mostly private. One priest in this parish is meeting with a gay man, sometimes in confession, or in counseling. That man understands intentional homosexual actions are objectively wrong. But he is struggling with his relationship with another man, which is sexual but has many other aspects, including love.

That same priest, same parish, is meeting with another man. That man rejects Christian teaching on morality of homosexual actions. This man encourages others to reject Christian sexual teaching overall, encouraging Situation Ethics. Unlike the first man, who continues to meet with a priest towards conversion, the second man is not willing to meet with any priest towards conversion.

There may be other factors that influence the priest’s response: perhaps a wife and children in one case, alcohol concerns in another. The priest’s response is specific to that person, or family, and may vary as conditions change over time.

Pastoral application is usually private: always what happens in Confession is private, usually excommunication, or lifting of excommunication, is also private. It become public sometimes, for instance if a person approaches the media and says they were fired by the Church because of X. Then the Church may have to explain the overall doctrinal principle it is defending, though even then it tries to maintain confidentiality, and keeps the door open for full reconcilliation. Don’t think you “know” the situation based on reading newspaper reports.
 
Wesrock said:
Bishops are relatively autonomous and discernment and application of various pastoral advice are up to them. Still, I think we should see more consistency, but this pastor did nothing wrong.
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I agree with your desire for more consistency among bishops. Then again I would like to see more consistency among lay people, Catholic and Protestant. Here is where you have the greatest inconsistency in 2016, even though they are baptized. Catholic and Protestant pastors are dealing with a situation where their flocks are bombarded by intense media culture, heavily anti-Christian. Their job is far more difficult than 50 years ago. We should pray for them, ask God to guide them, not sit in liberal or conservative judgement on them, especially when we never have the full story.
 
This is similar to a situation which occurred in Athy, Ireland, when a lesbian couple resigned from ministry after a parishioner objected. But then they returned to parish ministry, apparently welcomed by a large number of parishioners. The story is here.

These sorts of incidents give rise to an implicit schism within the Church.
 
Usige said:
Let’s say you drive through an area everyday that has a speed limit of 35, but everyone does 50 in the area. On several instance you have seen police parked nearby but they have never pulled anyone over. After several years of driving through the area you get pulled over and given a ticket.

Was the system rigged because you broke the law but never suffered any consequences? Do you think a judge wold consider it entrapment because you were not pulled over befofe even when officers had seen you break the law on multiple occasions?

Anyone that work in the Church should be fully cognizant of what the Church teaches and should be fully aware that the Church has, can and will continue to seperate from ministry anyone who knowingly acts in a manner gravely against her teachings. I can almost guarantee you that he signed something saying that his employment was contingent on following Church teachings. There is zero chance that he was unaware of Church teachings on same sex marriage.

Was it unjust? No. What is unjust is bishops and pastors that do not correct people who put their souls and the souls of others in jeopardy. This is exactly what would have happened if they let him continue in ministry after simulating marriage. It essentially says that Catholic teaching on one of the sacraments is not a big deal and leads souls into dngerous territory.
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Well said, and Amen. Especially the line I bolded.
 
Usige said:
What is unjust is bishops and pastors that do not correct people who put their souls and the souls of others in jeopardy. This is exactly what would have happened if they let him continue in ministry after simulating marriage. It essentially says that Catholic teaching on one of the sacraments is not a big deal and leads souls into dangerous territory.
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What you are saying is not wrong, but I would add points:
  1. The Media is constantly tempting laypeople to critique their pastors and bishops. They don’t really care if we criticize the bishop because he is too liberal, too conservative, too Polish, too young, too this, or too that. Just keep criticizing that bishop! When Catholics and Protestants are infected by the anti-religious authority plague sweeping our country, they fail to benefit from the apostolic or pastoral ministry.
  2. True, negligent bishops do cause problems. But so do negligent parents of adult children, negligent friends, negligent married couples, negligent Christian voters, negligent alumni who keep finding bad institutions, negligent lots of laity. The collapse of active, consistently practicing lay Catholics and Protestants caused most of the problems that we criticize bishops for inadequately responding to.
  3. When laity put themselves into the papal chair, evaluating this or that bishop, they slack off on their own conversion. That is dangerous territory.
I occasionally (briefly) mail my bishop some documentation on a current situation that he might not be aware of. Then I leave it to him how, when, or if he should respond.
I know some possible responses will never be visible to me.
 
What’s the outcry?

The man is gay sure, but he’s married to another man? He profanes God in the Eucharist by holding him with the same hands he holds another man? The Church is not here to condemn, but to PRETEND that this is ok and doesn’t effect things is contrary to Church teaching.
 
Dave_Noonan said:
As a non-Catholic, I find it difficult to understand when/where these rules are applied and when they aren’t–this all seems very arbitrary.

Just as one example, some of the (non-ordained) liturgical ministers/musicians at Seattle U have been in gay marriages for years, and this is all very open and doesn’t seem to be a problem for anyone. Does it depend on whether it’s a diocesean church versus an order chapel? Who decides when the rule will (rather abruptly) be enforced?
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I don’t know who decides.
 
The Church’s primary responsibility to Catholics, and to all persons, is toward their salvation, and the salvation of others they may influence. This is true whether they happen to be a priest, a lay employee, or someone else. Whether the person happens to be a volunteer for the Church, or draws a paycheck from the Church, does not negate that.

Sometimes removing a person from paid, or unpaid, employment with the Church, benefits that person, and other persons. Leaving a person in employment, when it would be to their own and others’ spiritual detriment, would be unjust. Even if a person is removed from Church employment, that does not remove them from the Church’s pastoral care.
 
The thing about homosexuality and the related transgenderism is the demand to be accepted. They demand this from society, the state and even the church. I can’t think of any other sin wherein the practitioners don’t have at least some understanding of its wrongness. I can’t imagine people standing up for adultery or thievery. This may be the reason why this sin has always been regarded as particularly evil and to be repressed.
 
commenter said:
The Church’s primary responsibility to Catholics, and to all persons, is toward their salvation, and the salvation of others they may influence. This is true whether they happen to be a priest, a lay employee, or someone else. Whether the person happens to be a volunteer for the Church, or draws a paycheck from the Church, does not negate that.

Sometimes removing a person from paid, or unpaid, employment with the Church, benefits that person, and other persons. Leaving a person in employment, when it would be to their own and others’ spiritual detriment, would be unjust. Even if a person is removed from Church employment, that does not remove them from the Church’s pastoral care.
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Well said.
 
Dave_Noonan said:
But surely the people that do the hiring (the pastor, etc.) should be equally aware of church teaching, no? If not more so? Shouldn’t the employer also bear some of the responsibility, especially given that person’s position of authority in the church? It seems that everyone was fine with this employee being gay-married until a new pastor came along. And again, shouldn’t the rules apply to everyone?

I don’t think your traffic analogy works, because at least here in California it would be entirely impractical to pull over and fine all violators of the speed limit. But it would be pretty simple for the Catholic Church to enforce a rule that says “no gay-married church musicians”; it’s just that they choose not to in certain cases for whatever reason.
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FIrst, it is not a sin or scandolous to be Gay, these men were hired before their so called “marriage” why they were calle dout was the fact they were “married” which is scandolus. You are right the same rules should apply. The first preist should have let them go also. He is the one that was being unjust. The new Priest did the correct and just action. better late than never!👍
 
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