Outdoor Mass

[benedictgal]

As were the two celebrated by PAPA B this past month in the USA.

But, both of you should remember one very big factor: name one church building that will fit 50-60 thousand members of the faithful in the New York and DC areas? Such a building doesn’t exist. Obviously, for that great a crowd, special arrangements must be made.

Furthermore, as I indicated in my earlier post, there was no way that everyone at St. Peter’s Square could have fit inside the Basilica for Pope John Paul’s funeral. Furthermore, the crowds stretched all the way down the Villa della Concilliazone, that long street that leads to St. Peter’s and it went beyond into the Tiber River bridge.

Incidentally, Pope Benedict is not a huge fan of outdoor Masses. He wrote that in one of his books; however, because I lent my pastor my edition of The Spirit of the Liturgy, I won’t be able to cite it until he returns it to me. As Pope, he celebrates them because the crowds are massive; however, if it were entirely up to him, he wouldn’t.

 

[m134e5]

If I were a priest, I would only celebrate outdoor Masses in the following circumstances:

1.) A group was on a camping trip or somthing that was too far from a church or house to have a Mass indoors.

2.) A crowd larger than nearby facilities could hold was expected.

If one or both of those circumstances happened, I would have the outdoor Mass, but I would insist on the following:

1.) The faithful may not receive from the chalice. (I wouldn’t give this option anyway- not even in a parish church- priests are not required to)

2.) The faithful MUST receive on the tongue (according to canon law this can be insisted upon if there is danger of profanation of the Sacrament).

3.) The faithful must still kneel at the appropriate times.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

We have been invited to a Catholic family camping event this summer. It is being organized by some families at a local campground, just outside a large metropolitan city. A priest from the Legionaires of Christ will offer Mass outdoors at the campground on Saturday evening.

While the thought of attending Mass in the beauty of the outdoors appeals to this nature-loving gal, I also understand that Mass is generally held in sacred places, i.e. consecrated churches, because of its holy meaning. I also understand that outdoor weddings with Mass are not generally allowed.

Would an outdoor Mass such as this be required to have approval from the local bishop? Should I assume the priest celebrating Mass has already received approval and not worry about it?

I’m wondering if we should attend the Mass, or go to our regular Sunday Mass, which would be about 30 to 45 minutes away.

Thanks,
Militant Mom

I personally like outdoor masses. As for a sacred place, are you not in part of God’s Creation? I would certainly consider that a sacred place. I see no problem with it, and when I become a priest, I would like to celebrate some outdoor masses.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Also, my uncle is a priest. Well every year we go to my grandma’s for thanksgiving. We never liked to wake up early for mass on Thanksgiving Day so my cousins and I would set up an alter* outside in the back and chairs. It was beautiful ecspecially since it was just family. He also told me that he celebrates and Iron-Board Mass every year. Him and his friens (all priest) go to Disney World every year. He celebrates mass every morning on the iron-board in the hotel room!

 

[benedictgal]

Also, my uncle is a priest. Well every year we go to my grandma’s for thanksgiving. We never liked to wake up early for mass on Thanksgiving Day so my cousins and I would set up an alter* outside in the back and chairs. It was beautiful ecspecially since it was just family. He also told me that he celebrates and Iron-Board Mass every year. Him and his friens (all priest) go to Disney World every year. He celebrates mass every morning on the iron-board in the hotel room!

I do hope that he has the necessary permission to do so because this is a bad precedent. With churches abound in the Orlando area, why couldn’t they just get their necessary credential letters, give them to one of the pastors and celebrate Mass in a church?

I do not want to sound rude, but, for someone discerning a vocation to the priesthood, you need to make sure that you study all of the norms and rubrics prescribed by the Church. You can’t be inventing things as you go along when it comes to the Mass. As Cardinal Arinze notes:

It is to be remembered that the Eucharistic sacrifice, and indeed the sacred liturgy as a whole, are not something that we make or invent, or put together on our own. They are gifts that we receive, keep, treasure, celebrate and for which we are grateful.

It must be lamented — says Pope John Paul II — that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reforms, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many.8

No doubt a merely external and formal carrying out of rites without internal unity of heart and mind should be rejected. But it is quite another matter when each celebrating priest or local community presumes to have the right to create or invent words and gestures in the sacred liturgy. Liturgical norms, properly understood and observed, help to save the Church from such damage and see that God is at the center of our worship.

Furthermore, as Redemptionis Sacramentum points out:

1. The Place for the Celebration of Holy Mass
   [108.] ***“The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place, unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place”.197 The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.

[109.] It is never lawful for a Priest to celebrate in a temple or sacred place of any non-Christian religion.***

Sorry, SHF, but, a hotel room is not a sacred place. Inasmuch as the Knights of Columbus celebrate Mass in a hotel reception hall, a hotel room is not fitting at all for the Mass. In your uncle’s case, he should, in all honesty, know better. I don’t want to be disrespectful, but, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Church’s most sacred treasure.

 

[Joysong]

Sorry, SHF, but, a hotel room is not a sacred place. Inasmuch as the Knights of Columbus celebrate Mass in a hotel reception hall, a hotel room is not fitting at all for the Mass. In your uncle’s case, he should, in all honesty, know better. I don’t want to be disrespectful, but, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Church’s most sacred treasure.

It would be so beautiful if everyone believes honorable motives about others’ intentions and forsakes judging them, especially when it is a priest.

At lunch a week ago, I had a conversation with a woman who had returned from vacation at Disney and was somewhat distraught because her husband did not permit the two of them to travel to Sunday mass. Why? When they inquired about the nearest Catholic church, they were told that a taxi would cost $16 one-way. Now that’s $32 round trip plus a tip for each taxi driver. He did not believe the Lord would require an extraordinary expense like that in order to get to mass.

I agree. A priest celebrates mass daily, and it would be a cost of nearly $40/day.

 

[DL82]

I know this isn’t entirely relevant, but I once saw a church in Spain that was almost entirely outdoors. There was a tiny white chapel at one end, barely big enough for a dozen people inside, and since the town had expanded, they’d taken the south wall off the church and turned that into the altar space, and the (barely 8ft tall) bell tower into the tabernacle, then set out seats and kneelers in the garden in front of the church, with trees for a covering. It was absolutely beautiful. I was there at Christmas time, and at the midnight mass this church had the most beautiful ceiling I’ve ever seen, God’s stars beat the Cistine chapel for beauty any day!

 

[SacredHeartFan]

It would be so beautiful if everyone believes honorable motives about others’ intentions and forsakes judging them, especially when it is a priest.

At lunch a week ago, I had a conversation with a woman who had returned from vacation at Disney and was somewhat distraught because her husband did not permit the two of them to travel to Sunday mass. Why? When they inquired about the nearest Catholic church, they were told that a taxi would cost $16 one-way. Now that’s $32 round trip plus a tip for each taxi driver. He did not believe the Lord would require an extraordinary expense like that in order to get to mass.

I agree. A priest celebrates mass daily, and it would be a cost of nearly $40/day.

Thanks! I am not try to bash Cannon Law, but why is it so strict on where priest can celebrate mass? Isn’t it the sacrifice and the prayers offered up that count? I am alll for sacred places, but what about the Eucharist? I mean, I wouldn’t go celebrate mass in a bar and say it’s only the sacrifice that counts, but I find nothing wrong with a hotel room. He wears full garb and sometimes they invite other Catholics to join them from the hotel instead of paying $32 everyday.

 

[Joysong]

There is nothing wrong, SHF. Your uncle knows well what is permitted for him, and I would trust his training any day over a casual poster here at CAF.

Don’t let a document toter mislead you into thinking your uncle is wrong. The priest may lawfully celebrate holy mass in other places besides a church, as many have stated already.

Peace.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

If I were a priest, I would only celebrate outdoor Masses in the following circumstances:

1.) A group was on a camping trip or somthing that was too far from a church or house to have a Mass indoors.

2.) A crowd larger than nearby facilities could hold was expected.

If one or both of those circumstances happened, I would have the outdoor Mass, but I would insist on the following:

1.) The faithful may not receive from the chalice. (I wouldn’t give this option anyway- not even in a parish church- priests are not required to)

2.) The faithful MUST receive on the tongue (according to canon law this can be insisted upon if there is danger of profanation of the Sacrament).

3.) The faithful must still kneel at the appropriate times.

But your profile does not indicate you are Catholic. How could you even be a priest? Or is it just opinion? Just curious. Your rules seem rather stringent for somebody who is N/A, so they intrigue me.

SEGUE

As I said, the local diocese has given dispensations for “scout” Mass out in the open, as both scout camps are not located in places where a bunch of kids could be herded onto busses, lugged off to a parish (none nearby either camp without a long drive), and lugged back without taking up the entire day. It is set in a area where there are benches and a pavilion, sort of like a picnic place, but not used for eating (Girl Scouts: Meeting area. Boy Scouts: Designated chapel area). A crucifix is available. A portable altar is available, not a card table or ironing board .

At the Girl Scouts’, Mass takes place BEFORE the Protestant service. The bishop comes out to at least one of the Masses to celebrate it himself, and to inspect things. The girls often come as individuals, have a set bedtime Saturday night throughout the camp, and are divided into units by age.

The Boy Scouts celebrate Mass AFTER the Protestant service, but the Boy Scouts often go as a troop and the Catholic ones bring their own chaplain, who celebrates for anybody who happens to be there who is Catholic. The boys don’t have a set bedtime, stay up often into the wee hours, and are dependent upon their own troop for meals, etc. They want the boys just as they wake up and clean up, so nobody breaks their Communion fast. The bishop comes out to several of these, as the Boy Scouts have a different geographical boundaries. The bishop also thinks it’s a good way to discuss vocations.

The priest offers the Precious Blood to the adults (anybody over 16) who happen to be in the first wave of communicants, as they don’t consecrate more than one chalice will hold. There’s no need to deputize EMHC, as there are only about 100 or so communicants a week. The girls bring their sit-upons, and those who choose to kneel do so. The boys are formed in ranks. They all receive in the hand or the tongue, as they choose and is permitted in the US.

The girls, for the most part, behave. They occasionally have to be shushed, and have to be reminded before Mass that their Protestant friends they’ve brought along may not receive (girls always seem to come in pairs). The boys who do not behave or try to start trouble are dragged back to the camp site and baby-sat by an adult or somebody like an Eagle or OA.

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks! I am not try to bash Cannon Law, but why is it so strict on where priest can celebrate mass? Isn’t it the sacrifice and the prayers offered up that count? I am alll for sacred places, but what about the Eucharist? I mean, I wouldn’t go celebrate mass in a bar and say it’s only the sacrifice that counts, but I find nothing wrong with a hotel room. He wears full garb and sometimes they invite other Catholics to join them from the hotel instead of paying $32 everyday.

But, to celebrate in a hotel room? Surely the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves to be celebrated in a noble and dignified place. Sorry, SHF, but, a hotel room doesn’t qualify. Celebrating the Mass entails making a sacrifice. Perhaps if the conditions were such that there was a severe presecution (as in the case of Mexico during the early 20th century), then, such arrangements are possible. However, there is certainly nothing that can impede your uncle and his fellow priests from celebrating the Mass in a church. The rising cost ol fuel alone doesn’t justify what he is doing.

 

[Joysong]

Benedictgal,

This is utterly deplorable of you to judge this priest, particularly when you know absolutely nothing about the matter. For all you know, he is a retired priest, or one on vacation, and not someone who is simply ‘doing hs own thing’ in disobedient fashion, as you attempt to infer.

Priests may licitly celebrate home masses, which are not all that different from a hotel room, masses in cemeteries, campsites, outdoor shrines, battlefields, etc.

I fail to understand why you are injecting this doom and gloom all in the name of your personal preference, which is so out of touch that it borders on slander.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, the norms exist for a reason. It is not up to the priest to play fast and loose with them. Celebrating Mass in a hotel room using an ironing board as an altar demonstrates complete disregard for the Holy Sacrifice, especially when there are churches available to the priest.

1. The Place for the Celebration of Holy Mass
   [108.] “The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place, unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place”.197 The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.

[109.] It is never lawful for a Priest to celebrate in a temple or sacred place of any non-Christian religion.

The norms exist for a reason. What the priest is doing is taking it upon himself to do something that is not appropriate and then claiming that it’s okay when it really is not. As Cardinal Arinze notes:

Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17

To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions.

Incidentally, Cardinal Arinze cites an example that I have often given (which some in these threads have completely disregarded):

1. Holy Scripture Stresses the Observance of Norms

In the Old Testament severe punishment was meted out to those to whom the conduct of worship had been entrusted but who ignored the detailed norms for such worship which God gave the chosen people through Moses. The two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, offered unlawful fire and were burnt to death in the sanctuary even in their vestments (cf. Lev 10:1-3; Num 3:4). Korah, Dathan and Abiram rebelled against Moses and Aaron and the ground opened and swallowed them and all their families (cf. Num 16:1-35). And Uzzah touched the Ark to adjust it into its proper position and was struck dead on the spot (cf. II Sam 6:6-7).

No doubt, God is more merciful in the New Testament. But we should not for that reason tempt His patience. Saint Paul castigated those who introduced abuses into the dignified celebration of the Eucharist at gatherings of the Christian community, such as factions, drunkenness and unwillingness of the rich to share with the poor (cf. II Cor 11:17-34).

Let us thank and adore the Lord Jesus who gave us the sacrifice and sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. Let us heed the appeal of Pope John Paul II:

I consider it my duty, therefore, to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity.18

Furthermore, if you are willing to shell out money to go to the amusement attractions in Orlando (which do not come cheap and spend the gasoline to get there), why would you use the rising cost of fuel to justify what you are doing? The priorities are definitely mess up.

 

[Joysong]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3282249&postcount=49

 

[benedictgal]

This link in the previous post has nothing to do with the matter at hand. First of all, the priest is not in a hotel room celebrating Mass using an ironing board as an altar. Furthermore, the two situations are entirely different. What SHF described is more of a convenience issue than anything else.

 

[bilop]

It would be so beautiful if everyone believes honorable motives about others’ intentions and forsakes judging them, especially when it is a priest.

At lunch a week ago, I had a conversation with a woman who had returned from vacation at Disney and was somewhat distraught because her husband did not permit the two of them to travel to Sunday mass. Why? When they inquired about the nearest Catholic church, they were told that a taxi would cost $16 one-way. Now that’s $32 round trip plus a tip for each taxi driver. He did not believe the Lord would require an extraordinary expense like that in order to get to mass.

I agree. A priest celebrates mass daily, and it would be a cost of nearly $40/day.

If they can afford the trip to Disney, they can afford the taxi to Mass. That’s just misplaced priorities. If the $32 is such a big deal to them, stay home.

I believe it is licit for a Priest to celebrate Mass in a home or hotel.

God Bless

 

[benedictgal]

If they can afford the trip to Disney, they can afford the taxi to Mass. That’s just misplaced priorities. If the $32 is such a big deal to them, stay home.

I believe it is licit for a Priest to celebrate Mass in a home or hotel.

God Bless

It is licit only if they have the expressed permission of the bishop in the diocese they are visting (or their own bishop if they are at home). Redemptionis Sacramentum is very clear. If they don’t have permiossion, then, it is iliicit. The only time that the restriction is eased is when there is either severe persecution or some catastrophic disaster.

 

[Phemie]

It is licit only if they have the expressed permission of the bishop in the diocese they are visting (or their own bishop if they are at home). Redemptionis Sacramentum is very clear. If they don’t have permiossion, then, it is iliicit. The only time that the restriction is eased is when there is either severe persecution or some catastrophic disaster.

Can they not celebrate a private Mass anywhere, anytime?

 

[benedictgal]

Can they not celebrate a private Mass anywhere, anytime?

Under the EF, perhaps; however, the OF is very stringent. What the SHF described doesn’t fall under any genuine allownaces. It was only for the sake of convenience. Now, surely during times of persecution and catastrophic events (hurricanes, plagues, man-made dissters), allowances are made. But, what SHF described isn’t one of them.

 

[Joysong]

I did have the opportunity to speak with our Vicar General about this matter. He indicated that as a unique event; i.e., a solitary occurrence, the priest would not need to seek the bishop’s permission. If such masses were to offered on a regular basis, the priest would need to approach the bishop and explain the rationale for requesting permission.

This correspondence from my diocesan worship office was directed to me when another discussion arose regarding the celebration of mass outside the confines of a church.

I am appalled that Benedictgal continues to attribute false motives to this priest when she knows absolutely nothing about the circumstances. In fact, more than once she has stated her assumption that it was only for a matter of his convenience.

It is just simply not true that a priest may celebrate a mass elsewhere, only in times of persecution or catastrophe. In fact, I would now say that this is a persistent persecution toward the priesthood, based only on her personal interpretation of a set of documents. I would ask that if anyone is putting their faith in her words to check with a diocesan authority. This should have been done by her as well, before issuing this false directive in an area of a public forum like CAF.