Outdoor Mass

[EasterJoy]

Can they not celebrate a private Mass anywhere, anytime?

Well, but once you are ministering to the faithful who are under the care of a particular bishop, in what sense is that a private liturgy? A priest who intends to do ministry outside his own diocese should contact the local bishop, who will let him know under what circumstances special permission is required for a particular liturgy or ministry in his diocese.

This is especially true of anything like public ministry, and particularly true since the recent scandals. It is the responsibility of the local bishop to see to it that none who serve in Church ministry in his diocese pose a known threat to the faithful and that all who serve have been made aware of the specific norms that exist in that diocese. This is only common sense.

 

[Phemie]

Well, but once you are ministering to the faithful who are under the care of a particular bishop, in what sense is that a private liturgy? A priest who intends to do ministry outside his own diocese should contact the local bishop, who will let him know under what circumstances special permission is required for a particular liturgy or ministry in his diocese.

This is especially true of anything like public ministry, and particularly true since the recent scandals. It is the responsibility of the local bishop to see to it that none who serve in Church ministry in his diocese pose a known threat to the faithful and that all who serve have been made aware of the specific norms that exist in that diocese. This is only common sense.

I was thinking more of the priest on vacation who gets up in the morning, celebrates the Mass (which he is encouraged to celebrated daily) in his hotel room (perhaps concelebrates with fellow vacationing priests) and then goes off on his day’s business. He’s not ministering to anyone, anymore than the retired priests I know who get up at the retirement home, go down to the chapel at 4:30 or 5 a.m. and celebrate Mass alone before going for breakfast.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

My question is, do you think God actually cares where he is worshiped and where he is glorified?

 

[benedictgal]

My question is, do you think God actually cares where he is worshiped and where he is glorified?

Actually, the answer is yes. He has cared ever since the day He first set down the rules to Moses. If you recall:

1. Holy Scripture Stresses the Observance of Norms

In the Old Testament severe punishment was meted out to those to whom the conduct of worship had been entrusted but who ignored the detailed norms for such worship which God gave the chosen people through Moses. The two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, offered unlawful fire and were burnt to death in the sanctuary even in their vestments (cf. Lev 10:1-3; Num 3:4). Korah, Dathan and Abiram rebelled against Moses and Aaron and the ground opened and swallowed them and all their families (cf. Num 16:1-35). And Uzzah touched the Ark to adjust it into its proper position and was struck dead on the spot (cf. II Sam 6:6-7).

No doubt, God is more merciful in the New Testament. But we should not for that reason tempt His patience. Saint Paul castigated those who introduced abuses into the dignified celebration of the Eucharist at gatherings of the Christian community, such as factions, drunkenness and unwillingness of the rich to share with the poor (cf. II Cor 11:17-34).

Let us thank and adore the Lord Jesus who gave us the sacrifice and sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. Let us heed the appeal of Pope John Paul II:

I consider it my duty, therefore, to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity.18

SHF, what is most troubling is that if you are intent on pursuing your vocation, the first thing you need to ask yourself is whether or not you will be obedient to the norms establsihed by the Church for the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The fact that you are even asking this kind of question and the fact that others apparently side with you is most troubling. To ignore the rubrics just because you want to do your own thing is wrong. To celebrate Mass in a hotel room because one cannot and will not make the effort to find a Church to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice is troubling. When you make convenience more important than following what the Church prescribes, then just who are you serving?

To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions.

Sorry, SHF, but you cannot have it both ways.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Actually, the answer is yes. He has cared ever since the day He first set down the rules to Moses. If you recall:

SHF, what is most troubling is that if you are intent on pursuing your vocation, the first thing you need to ask yourself is whether or not you will be obedient to the norms establsihed by the Church for the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The fact that you are even asking this kind of question and the fact that others apparently side with you is most troubling. To ignore the rubrics just because you want to do your own thing is wrong. To celebrate Mass in a hotel room because one cannot and will not make the effort to find a Church to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice is troubling. When you make convenience more important than following what the Church prescribes, then just who are you serving?

Sorry, SHF, but you cannot have it both ways.

Did you go to seminary for 8 years? Because if you did not, I would rather listen to the one who did. My uncle.

 

[benedictgal]

Did you go to seminary for 8 years? Because if you did not, I would rather listen to the one who did. My uncle.

First of all, the norms are very clear on this situation. Unfortrunately, just because one may have gone through seminary and ordination that doesn’t excuse him from takinng it upon himself to do something that he has no legitimate authority to do. In fact, many liturgical abuses have come at the hands of clergy. Documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum came about precisely because of situations like the one you have described.

Second, taking a disrespectful tone is not at all conducive to having a mature and adult discussion. You have yet to provide any documentation to substantiate your claim other than the fact that your uncle is a priest. Because he is a priest, he should know better. He is charged with the responsibility of celebrating the Holy Sacriifice of the Mass in the form and manner prescribed by the Church. He has no authority to take liberties with the celebration, especially where location is concerned.

In another post, you said that your uncle apparently has permission because he and the bishop went to seminary together. Does he have legitimate permission to celebrate Mass in a hotel room with an inroning board for an altar from the bishop of Orlando? Surely, with churches abound in that area, such a location is not needed.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

First of all, the norms are very clear on this situation. Unfortrunately, just because one may have gone through seminary and ordination that doesn’t excuse him from takinng it upon himself to do something that he has no legitimate authority to do. In fact, many liturgical abuses have come at the hands of clergy. Documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum came about precisely because of situations like the one you have described.

Second, taking a disrespectful tone is not at all conducive to having a mature and adult discussion. You have yet to provide any documentation to substantiate your claim other than the fact that your uncle is a priest. Because he is a priest, he should know better. He is charged with the responsibility of celebrating the Holy Sacriifice of the Mass in the form and manner prescribed by the Church. He has no authority to take liberties with the celebration, especially where location is concerned.

In another post, you said that your uncle apparently has permission because he and the bishop went to seminary together. Does he have legitimate permission to celebrate Mass in a hotel room with an inroning board for an altar from the bishop of Orlando? Surely, with churches abound in that area, such a location is not needed.

The nearest Catholic Chuch from the Disney grounds is 6 to 7 miles away. And once again, I’ll listen to the one who went through seminary.

 

[benedictgal]

The nearest Catholic Chuch from the Disney grounds is 6 to 7 miles away. And once again, I’ll listen to the one who went through seminary.

And, just how close are all of the amusement rides and parks to the hotel? No. If you can spend money to go to the amusement parks and make the effort to get to Orlando, a six to seven mile drive is not strenous. Sorry, SHF, but no matter what you throw, it still does not justify what your uncle and his friends are doing.

It is against the norms and is wrong, plain and simple.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

And, just how close are all of the amusement rides and parks to the hotel? No. If you can spend money to go to the amusement parks and make the effort to get to Orlando, a six to seven mile drive is not strenous. Sorry, SHF, but no matter what you throw, it still does not justify what your uncle and his friends are doing.

It is against the norms and is wrong, plain and simple.

I am droping this conversation now.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It would be so beautiful if everyone believes honorable motives about others’ intentions and forsakes judging them, especially when it is a priest.

At lunch a week ago, I had a conversation with a woman who had returned from vacation at Disney and was somewhat distraught because her husband did not permit the two of them to travel to Sunday mass. Why? When they inquired about the nearest Catholic church, they were told that a taxi would cost $16 one-way. Now that’s $32 round trip plus a tip for each taxi driver. He did not believe the Lord would require an extraordinary expense like that in order to get to mass.

I agree. A priest celebrates mass daily, and it would be a cost of nearly $40/day.

I agree that it would be tooo great a cost for the priest.

But, when one meal can cost well over $50 for two at Disney so the cost of one trip to Mass would not be that exceptional. Depends where your priorities are.

 

[LRThunder]

The nearest Catholic Chuch from the Disney grounds is 6 to 7 miles away. And once again, I’ll listen to the one who went through seminary.

6 to 7 miles away? Some Catholics would long for that short of a distance to Mass.

 

[KathleenElsie]

There is nothing wrong, SHF. Your uncle knows well what is permitted for him, and I would trust his training any day over a casual poster here at CAF.

The priest may lawfully celebrate holy mass in other places besides a church, as many have stated already.

Peace.

 

[Joysong]

And, just how close are all of the amusement rides and parks to the hotel? No. If you can spend money to go to the amusement parks and make the effort to get to Orlando, a six to seven mile drive is not strenous. Sorry, SHF, but no matter what you throw, it still does not justify what your uncle and his friends are doing.

I repeat once again that you know not a single thing about this priest’s circumstances in order to make a judgment about him. Did it ever occur to that most people fly to Orlando and do not have a car at their disposal? They must either rent one, or obtain a taxi. It may be that he is elderly and did not go there to hop rides in the amusement park. You really are taking much too much for granted with knowing a single fact.

Frankly, if I were to go to Orlando, the only place I would visit is Epcot, which is free and educational. No way would I stand over an hour in line to go on a 10-minute horrific ride. Did that once when I was younger. Never again!

I wonder if some day the Lord will allow you to be judged as harshly as you have judged others.
Sunday’s gospel: For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world.

 

[Joysong]

I repeat once again that you know not a single thing about this priest’s circumstances in order to make a judgment about him. Did it ever occur to that most people fly to Orlando and do not have a car at their disposal? They must either rent one, or obtain a taxi. It may be that he is elderly and did not go there to hop rides in the amusement park. You really are taking much too much for granted with knowing a single fact.

Frankly, if I were to go to Orlando, the only place I would visit is Epcot, which is free and educational. No way would I stand over an hour in line to go on a 10-minute horrific ride. Did that once when I was younger. Never again!

I wonder if some day the Lord will allow you to be judged as harshly as you have judged others.
Sunday’s gospel: For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world.

 

[benedictgal]

I repeat once again that you know not a single thing about this priest’s circumstances in order to make a judgment about him. Did it ever occur to that most people fly to Orlando and do not have a car at their disposal? They must either rent one, or obtain a taxi. It may be that he is elderly and did not go there to hop rides in the amusement park. You really are taking much too much for granted with knowing a single fact.

Frankly, if I were to go to Orlando, the only place I would visit is Epcot, which is free and educational. No way would I stand over an hour in line to go on a 10-minute horrific ride. Did that once when I was younger. Never again!

I wonder if some day the Lord will allow you to be judged as harshly as you have judged others.
Sunday’s gospel: For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are so quick to disregard the norms of the Church just for the sake of convenience. It is rather fascinating that people will try to push the envelope and try to make things fit because they want them to fit.

Furthermore, neither you nor SHF have quoted authoritative documentation from the Holy See supporting your viewpoint. Going to your diocesan CDW isn’t the same thing as quoting from the documents, which, by the way, do not support such wholesale allowances.

1. The Place for the Celebration of Holy Mass
   [108.] “The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place, unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place”.197 The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.

[109.] It is never lawful for a Priest to celebrate in a temple or sacred place of any non-Christian religion.

What part of this is so hard to understand? You can’t play around with the location just because it’s convenienf for you. What SHF posted is wrong.

Furthermore, the priest is charged with being faithful to the norms and laws established by the Holy See when it comes to the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He is not charged with finding loopholes to circumvent the laws just for the sake of not wanting to drive a certain distance, which, by the way, isn’t unreasonable.

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions

A hotel room is far from a sacred place. Using an ironing board as an an altar is an insult to the Mass. What SHF has posted is surely an erosion of the Mass.

 

[Joysong]

Furthermore, neither you nor SHF have quoted authoritative documentation from the Holy See supporting your viewpoint. Going to your diocesan CDW isn’t the same thing as quoting from the documents, which, by the way, do not support such wholesale allowances.

Neither of us need to, for I have already quoted the permissions listed by my diocese, which are far more authoritative. You still persist in judging! Several people I know have standing reservations for annual visits to certain areas for vacation. As such, it is highly likely that this priest already had the permission you insist he needs prior to his visit. Do you have complete asssurance that he did not?

Did it occur to you that SHF said he invites other Catholics to mass with him? That says to me he is known there, and may possibly even have gone with retreatants or something similar to the priest who came on tour with me to the Holy Land.

I’m with SHF … done with your brash condemnations and this thread. You aren’t listening. Your opinion is law.

 

[benedictgal]

Neither of us need to, for I have already quoted the permissions listed by my diocese, which are far more authoritative. You still persist in judging! Several people I know have standing reservations for annual visits to certain areas for vacation. As such, it is highly likely that this priest already had the permission you insist he needs prior to his visit. Do you have complete asssurance that he did not?

Did it occur to you that SHF said he invites other Catholics to mass with him? That says to me he is known there, and may possibly even have gone with retreatants or something similar to the priest who came on tour with me to the Holy Land.

I’m with SHF … done with your brash condemnations and this thread. You aren’t listening. Your opinion is law.

No, what I’ve quoted comes from authoriative Church documents, not the opinion of a diocesan director of divine worship.

 

[EasterJoy]

But, to celebrate in a hotel room? Surely the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves to be celebrated in a noble and dignified place. Sorry, SHF, but, a hotel room doesn’t qualify. Celebrating the Mass entails making a sacrifice. Perhaps if the conditions were such that there was a severe presecution (as in the case of Mexico during the early 20th century), then, such arrangements are possible. However, there is certainly nothing that can impede your uncle and his fellow priests from celebrating the Mass in a church. The rising cost ol fuel alone doesn’t justify what he is doing.

I would normally say that Yankee Stadium doesn’t qualify, either. Obviously, there is not a place so secular that it cannot be made sacred, with a little effort and for the right reasons…just as Calvary itself was, and it was a particularly chosen by the Romans as the most ignoble place in the locale. Therefore, it could be argued that the mere fact of having a priest in a room sufficiently elevates the space, keeping in mind that this priest is still bound by the rubrics.

At any rate, what does and does not constitute a suitable place for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is properly discerned by the successors of the Apostles. As long as a priest is in obedience to the norms and conditions laid down by the local ordinary, that is good enough.

 

[KathleenElsie]

6 to 7 miles away? Some Catholics would long for that short of a distance to Mass.

I think that with the closing and/or combining parishes many of us would be grateful for only a 7 mile drive.

 

[japhy]

At lunch a week ago, I had a conversation with a woman who had returned from vacation at Disney and was somewhat distraught because her husband did not permit the two of them to travel to Sunday mass. Why? When they inquired about the nearest Catholic church, they were told that a taxi would cost $16 one-way. Now that’s $32 round trip plus a tip for each taxi driver. He did not believe the Lord would require an extraordinary expense like that in order to get to mass.

Forgive me, but fretting over $40 to get to Mass and back after spending who knows how much on a Disney vacation seems a bit lopsided to me.