Outrage over Vatican request for $1.1 million to fund sisters investigation (National Catholic Reporter)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Eucharisted
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Married priests are not a contradiction to what the Holy Father teaches. They are a fact in the Catholic Church.

I’m not worried about my money, I contribute faithfully to my parish and diocese.

I’m bothered by the money issue because according to the article (if you haven’t read it, please do) it was stated that the person running the investigation initially said that the USCCB would not be paying for it. Now, later, comes the request for money, which I think is at least a PR gaffe.

Also, it’s never been publicly adequately explained, imho, why there are TWO separate investigations going on, particularly in light of problems that are much more well known and widespread than U.S. women religious.
You’re not going to get an explanation for this. This is one of those areas where it is privileged information on a need to know basis. The Sacred Congregation cannot reveal what is going wrong in the religious communities of women that it is investigating. To make that public to the laity is a serious violation of Church history. The policy of the Church since the 13th century is to keep all matters regarding religious away from the laity and from the local bishops. In other words, the pope and the Holy See are the only ones entitled to know the full story.

This rule exists for two reasons. 1) It protects religious from interference from the laity and from bishops. 2) It protects the laity from scandal. We just have to trust the Vatican on this one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You’re not going to get an explanation for this. This is one of those areas where it is privileged information on a need to know basis. The Sacred Congregation cannot reveal what is going wrong in the religious communities of women that it is investigating. To make that public to the laity is a serious violation of Church history. The policy of the Church since the 13th century is to keep all matters regarding religious away from the laity and from the local bishops. In other words, the pope and the Holy See are the only ones entitled to know the full story.

This rule exists for two reasons. 1) It protects religious from interference from the laity and from bishops. 2) It protects the laity from scandal. We just have to trust the Vatican on this one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you. I do trust the Vatican, though sometimes it’s harder than other times. More transparency would help, though I understand and respect confidentiality, scandal, interference, etc. thanks again for your as always insightful and respectful info.
 
The way that the Sacred Congregation for Bishops operates is very different. They deal with each bishop individually.
Or rather, they don’t deal with them.
To take on an entire conference of bishops would be a challenge to the episcopacy. The Church cannot do that.
It certainly can – but it won’t.
Even though the pope is the Vicar of Christ, he governs with the bishops. He cannot put them under a microscope, in a public manner, and ask the faithful to obey them.
Once again, the pope’s governance is not limited in that way. By a custom which has not served well, he won’t challenge their leadership, but that is a pastoral decision, and one that should certainly be reconsidered, given the dreadful performance that anyone can observe. The pope is free and fully permitted to publicly correct any of his bishops.
That would be chaotic and catastrophic.
The grace of God can work wonders that even sociologists cannot predict.
The bishops are Ordinaries. They have a different rank than women religious do.
The bishops remain subordinate to the Holy See. When they fail in their task, they should indeed be investigated, challenged, and if necessary – deposed.

But again, the investigation of this influential organization of women religious alone is something that many thought impossible. So, I’m very glad to see it and I can only hope for more and better things like it in the future.
 
The bishops remain subordinate to the Holy See. When they fail in their task, they should indeed be investigated, challenged, and if necessary – deposed…
Deposing a bishop has other risks. For one thing, once ordained a Bishop, no one can remove his power to ordain other Bishops and priests. A deposed Bishop can cause as much trouble as leaving him where he is. The best approach is to follow St Paul’s advice to Timothy and be very careful about who they ordain (lay hands on).
 
Deposing a bishop has other risks. For one thing, once ordained a Bishop, no one can remove his power to ordain other Bishops and priests. A deposed Bishop can cause as much trouble as leaving him where he is. The best approach is to follow St Paul’s advice to Timothy and be very careful about who they ordain (lay hands on).
For this precise reason the Congregation of Bishosp does not deal with bishops en masse. This can backfire and trigger a schism. I don’t believe that it would happen in the USA; but why risk it?

Also, we have to tone it down a little. We seem to want a pope who will come down hard on anyone that we find fault with. The pope does not exist to be a daddy who goes around punishing everyone. That reduces his role to something much less than what it is. He is the Vicar of Christ. There are many things that concern the Vicar of Christ, not just a few crazy bishops.

I think it was on CAF, but I could be wrong. I saw a report that Pope Benedict’s greatest concern, besides inter-faith relations is theology and that he spends several hours a day locked up working on his theological writings. What I’m trying to say is that this is a pope who is very much a scholar, professor and theologian, not a disciplinarian. He leaves those things to the Congregations in the Vatican.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
For this precise reason the Congregation of Bishosp does not deal with bishops en masse. This can backfire and trigger a schism. I don’t believe that it would happen in the USA; but why risk it?
I can see how that is a very tough call. A bad Bishop can do alot of damage. But that can also motivate Catholics to be better Catholics. God is still God.
Also, we have to tone it down a little. We seem to want a pope who will come down hard on anyone that we find fault with. The pope does not exist to be a daddy who goes around punishing everyone. That reduces his role to something much less than what it is. He is the Vicar of Christ. There are many things that concern the Vicar of Christ, not just a few crazy bishops.
It helps me to recall Our Lord’s warning about the weeds and the wheat being allowed to grow together until the harvest. Pulling weeds before the harvest doesn’t just hurt the weeds.
 
I can see how that is a very tough call. A bad Bishop can do alot of damage. But that can also motivate Catholics to be better Catholics. God is still God.
It helps me to recall Our Lord’s warning about the weeds and the wheat being allowed to grow together until the harvest. Pulling weeds before the harvest doesn’t just hurt the weeds.
You’re right of course. But I read many of the posts on CAF and then I listen to the people whom I serve and there is such a difference. I believe that many people on CAF are like the parent who is frustrated with the child who won’t follow directions. When the level of frustration becomes so high, rather than take a walk and calm down, the parent reaches for the child and spanks him, as if that were gong to solve the problem. In reality, one behavior is just replaced by another, because you have not taught the child discipline. All that you have taught the child is to fear you, because you are stronger. It’s a very punitive mindset.

Those of us who become priests and religious do not want to go around punishing people. That not why we entered. We want to teach and guide souls. We want to be brothers to all men. We want to offer fraternal correction and work with people. This process produces results very slowly. But it is very much more evangelical than punishment.

If I were to punish every religious under me for whateaver reason, I would end up with a very angry and resentful community of religious. What would that achieve? I can’t get rid of them. Once they make solemn vows, they are lifers. The same with deacons, priests and bishops. Once they are ordained, you can’t undo the ordination. And a rebellious or resentful bishop is a very dangerous person.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The bishops remain subordinate to the Holy See.
Debatable. One of the biggest obstacles to Christian unity is the relationship between the Pope and other Bishops. The way they have exercised their offices has changed over time and will continue to evolve.
 
Originally Posted by **reggieM **
The bishops remain subordinate to the Holy See. When they fail in their task, they should indeed be investigated, challenged, and if necessary – deposed…
Subordinate is not the correct word. A bishop is supposed to be in communion with the Pontiff, but he is not subordinate to the Pontiff. He is obedient to the Pontiff; it that’s what you mean.

But as we saw with Archbishop Lefebvre, there is nothing to stop a bishop from exercising his episcopal powers without the permission of the Pontiff. That’s the last thing that the Vatican wants. The most that the Vatican can do to a bishop is excommunicate. You cannot depose a bishop. A bishop has the fullness of the priesthood.

In addition, the Vatican is not into punitive measures. The Holy Father is trying to unite the Church, not devide it. The Vatican can suspend a bishop or even excommunicate him. But he will always be a validly ordained bishop. Look at the SSPX. After lifting the excommunications, the Vatican asked them not to ordain the priests that they were schedule to ordain. They did it anyway. There is nothing that the Vatican can do to stop them.

There are disciplinary measures that the Vatican can use against individual bishoops such as suspension and excommunication. But it cannot prudently use those against an entire conference. We’re speaking of several hundred bishops. You can penalize several hundred bishops for the sins of a few. That would cause massive law suits against the Vatican. The bishops would be in the tribunal faster than you can think. That’s what the Rota is for, to hear these complaints. The Rota would not advise that the Holy Father take such drastic action that includes so many innocent men. That’s why the Sacred Congregation of Bishops and the Congregation on the Faith deal with these on a case by case manner.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Subordinate is not the correct word. A bishop is supposed to be in communion with the Pontiff, but he is not subordinate to the Pontiff. He is obedient to the Pontiff; it that’s what you mean.
I mean something like this:

The only manner in which a man can stand in such a relation to any corporate body is by possessing authority over it. The supreme head of a body, in dependence on whom all subordinate authorities hold their power, and he alone, can be said to be the principle of stability, unity, and increase. The promise acquires additional solemnity when we remember that both Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 28:16) and Christ’s own words (Matthew 7:24) had attributed this office of foundation of the Church to Himself. He is therefore assigning to Peter, of course in a secondary degree, a prerogative which is His own, and thereby associating the Apostle with Himself in an altogether singular manner.
Catholic Encyclopedia: Pope
But as we saw with Archbishop Lefebvre, there is nothing to stop a bishop from exercising his episcopal powers without the permission of the Pontiff.
Nothing except the laws of the Church and the bonds of ecclesiastical union. If your point is that the Holy See should not enforce the laws of the Church for fear that people will break communion, then I’m afraid that I can’t agree with that. The fact is, the Holy See has decided to investigate religious orders because they have drifted from orthodoxy and obedience to Rome. If such things necessarily caused schisms (as you seem to imply) then the Pope certainly wouldn’t engage in that particular action.
The most that the Vatican can do to a bishop is excommunicate.
What more would you want the Vatican to do?
You cannot depose a bishop.
This is wildly incorrect, but I think your mistake is based on a misunderstanding of what the term “depose” means. Give the phrase “depose a bishop” a Google search and you’ll see. The Holy See has a long and well-documented history of deposing bishops.

In recent times, you might be interested in this:

Jacques Gaillot, deposed bishop of Evreux
THE Vatican’s summary dismissal of Jacques Gaillot, the outspoken bishop of Evreux, on January 12th, 1995 has shaken France’s Catholic church.

Here’s an excellent article about the deposition (removal from his duties) of Bishop Gaillot:

HOW A BISHOP IS DEPOSED: THE LATEST CASE

It all throws a blinding light on the state of the Church, on the
presence and power, not only in France, of totally fraudulent
bishops, perfectly transparent frauds, on how much a fool or a crook
or a Marxist agent can get away with, if he lies or bribes his way
into a bishopric. It is hard to believe how much they get away with
.

How many such lies, how many such comedies, are going on today,
centering around a crowd of men - 100? 300?-who knows?- whose names
appear in the , and the Vatican yearbook, the
, among the bishops in North American and
Western European countries?

Again, bishops certainly can be deposed and many have been. Bishops can be placed under interdict and silenced as well (as Bishop Gaillot was). This is a remedy that the Church can and does use.
But it cannot prudently use those against an entire conference.
If the entire conference falls into heresy it certainly can. In other words, we cannot claim that that we know what the most prudent thing to do will be in every case in the future. It’s enough to say that the Church has this power and can use it when necessary.
You can’t penalize several hundred bishops for the sins of a few.
I understand your point and yes, generally that’s true. But when the sins of the few are tolerated and supported by the majority, then the entire group needs to pay the price. This is what is happening with the women religious. There are probably some faithful sisters who are aligned with the LCWR. But they must be held under the suspicion that covers the group now that the entire organization is being investigated. If they are faithful nuns, they won’t fear or be upset about an investigation from Rome (but would welcome it) – even though they’ll deal with the penalty (if one is given to the entire group).
The bishops would be in the tribunal faster than you can think. That’s what the Rota is for, to hear these complaints. The Rota would not advise that the Holy Father take such drastic action that includes so many innocent men. That’s why the Sacred Congregation of Bishops and the Congregation on the Faith deal with these on a case by case manner.
I think you’re quite right here and I don’t say it’s a cynical view, but it’s realistic. If we took it to the next level, we’d say that if the Holy See decided to try to directly intervene with the American bishops and correct some significant problems (as I recommended), the scenario you outlined would probably occur. In other words, the bishops are so hardened in their rebellion and obstinancy that they would actually try to sue the Pope (which is absurd and illegal since no priest or bishop can file a canonical suit against the Pope – who is the supreme legislator and authority in the Church – ruling above all tribunals).

But aside from that – I do think you’re right. That’s how bad it is. What should take a mild correction would actually take an act of ecclesiastical warfare from Rome in order to try to get the U.S. bishops to simply carry out their duties as they are assigned.

That is because too much tolerance has been given, bad habits are ingrained, and the bishops think they can act almost totally independent of the guidance of the magisterium of the Church.
 
I mean something like this:

The only manner in which a man can stand in such a relation to any corporate body is by possessing authority over it. The supreme head of a body, in dependence on whom all subordinate authorities hold their power, and he alone, can be said to be the principle of stability, unity, and increase. The promise acquires additional solemnity when we remember that both Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 28:16) and Christ’s own words (Matthew 7:24) had attributed this office of foundation of the Church to Himself. He is therefore assigning to Peter, of course in a secondary degree, a prerogative which is His own, and thereby associating the Apostle with Himself in an altogether singular manner.
Catholic Encyclopedia: Pope

Nothing except the laws of the Church and the bonds of ecclesiastical union. If your point is that the Holy See should not enforce the laws of the Church for fear that people will break communion, then I’m afraid that I can’t agree with that. The fact is, the Holy See has decided to investigate religious orders because they have drifted from orthodoxy and obedience to Rome. If such things necessarily caused schisms (as you seem to imply) then the Pope certainly wouldn’t engage in that particular action.

This is wildly incorrect, but I think your mistake is based on a misunderstanding of what the term “depose” means. Give the phrase “depose a bishop” a Google search and you’ll see. The Holy See has a long and well-documented history of deposing bishops.

It all throws a blinding light on the state of the Church, on the
presence and power, not only in France, of totally fraudulent
bishops, perfectly transparent frauds, on how much a fool or a crook
or a Marxist agent can get away with, if he lies or bribes his way
into a bishopric. It is hard to believe how much they get away with
.

How many such lies, how many such comedies, are going on today,
centering around a crowd of men - 100? 300?-who knows?- whose names
appear in the , and the Vatican yearbook, the
, among the bishops in North American and
Western European countries?[/INDENT]

Again, bishops certainly can be deposed and many have been. Bishops can be placed under interdict and silenced as well (as Bishop Gaillot was). This is a remedy that the Church can and does use.

If the entire conference falls into heresy it certainly can. In other words, we cannot claim that that we know what the most prudent thing to do will be in every case in the future. It’s enough to say that the Church has this power and can use it when necessary.
First let me say that I think the breakdown in communication between you and I has to do with nuance of words, not actual difference of opinion. For example: You’re using subordinae to mean that the bishops answer to the pope. That is accurate. I was using subortinate as in the bishops are lower bishops than the pope. They are not. The pope is also a bishop. Now we agree, they do answer to the pope. They owe him obedience and they must be in communion with him. Unfortuantely, there are some who are out there somewhere. You get my meaning.

You use depose as it is used more in the secular world than in canon law. But we mean the same thing. A pope can remove a bishop from his post, he can suspend a bishop thus taking away his faculties to hear confession and to witness marriages. He can excommunicate a bishop. He can even laicize a bishop. What he can never do to any bishop is take away his priestly powers. Even if he laicizes a bishop, the bishop remains a bishop. He never actually becomes a lay man. Laicize is often mistaken to mean that a deacon, priest or bishop becomes a lay person. That’s not what it means at all. It means that they have no authority or place in the Church, except a place among the laity. While they have no authority, they do have their sacramental power, which no pope can take away.

For this reason, it is a very dangerous move for a pope to take on a bishop, unless there is absolute proof and serious danger to the Church. This is why Pope John Paul II did not penalize Archbishop Lefebvre all those years. When he ordained four bishops, then he posed a danger to the Church. There are several bishops who have done this, including several Americans. They pose a danger to the Church, because they can create a schism.

Yes, the Holy Father must be afraid of a schism. His job is to keep the Church united. He has to find every possible means to do that. That’s why the Congregations on the Bishop and on the Faith take on these hard core issues. This cuts it down to a case by case discussion and keeps it very private.

Taking on religious orders or many religious orders, does not pose danger to the Church. Sisters are not bishops. They cannot ordain. Therefore, they cannot threaten the Church with a schism. If they choose to leave, they do no harm to the physical structure of the Church. Even in that case, there will be sisters who will be exhonorated, as there are members of the Legionaries of Christ who have been exhonorated. The Holy See is not out on a witch hunt. It’s out to bring people back into the fold.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Unfortuantely, there are some who are out there somewhere. You get my meaning.
Yes, and I agree it’s a problem.
There are several bishops who have done this, including several Americans. They pose a danger to the Church, because they can create a schism.
A schism is very bad, but so is the destruction of the faith from within. It’s a delicate task, but eventually, the Holy Father cannot permit false teaching to persist and he will take some actions of various kinds.
The Holy See is not out on a witch hunt. It’s out to bring people back into the fold.
Yes, I agree with that also.
 
You use depose as it is used more in the secular world than in canon law. But we mean the same thing. A pope can remove a bishop from his post, he can suspend a bishop thus taking away his faculties to hear confession and to witness marriages. He can excommunicate a bishop. He can even laicize a bishop. What he can never do to any bishop is take away his priestly powers. Even if he laicizes a bishop, the bishop remains a bishop. He never actually becomes a lay man. Laicize is often mistaken to mean that a deacon, priest or bishop becomes a lay person. That’s not what it means at all. It means that they have no authority or place in the Church, except a place among the laity. While they have no authority, they do have their sacramental power, which no pope can take away.

For this reason, it is a very dangerous move for a pope to take on a bishop, unless there is absolute proof and serious danger to the Church…
Suppose a person gains access to the priesthood with the intent of doing harm to the Church. Do you happen to know if Canon Law has a mechanism to nullify his ordination (i.e., not only remove him from his post but also nullify his priestly powers, his power to ordain, assuming he was ordained a Bishop)…something similar to annulment of a marriage?
 
Suppose a person gains access to the priesthood with the intent of doing harm to the Church. Do you happen to know if Canon Law has a mechanism to nullify his ordination (i.e., not only remove him from his post but also nullify his priestly powers, his power to ordain, assuming he was ordained a Bishop)…something similar to annulment of a marriage?
The Church has the power over the sacraments. In the case of marriage, the Church presumes the validity of the marriage until a petitioner comes forward requesting a review.

I believe there may be a process whereby any other sacrament could be examined, although I do not know of what specific code. It would simply make sense that if there were grounds that a sacrament could be declared null, that the Church would have the ability to do so.
 
Suppose a person gains access to the priesthood with the intent of doing harm to the Church. Do you happen to know if Canon Law has a mechanism to nullify his ordination (i.e., not only remove him from his post but also nullify his priestly powers, his power to ordain, assuming he was ordained a Bishop)…something similar to annulment of a marriage?
An ordination can be declared invalid. It has to go through the rota. It’s the same process as annulling a marriage. You have to prove that there never was an ordination. You have to go back to the diaconate. If you can prove that the diaconate ordination was invalid, then all the other susequent ordinations are invalid.

Unless the Rota can prove that the ordination is invalid, the ordination is given the benefit of the doubt, never the other way around, the same as marriage.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
An ordination can be declared invalid. It has to go through the rota. It’s the same process as annulling a marriage. You have to prove that there never was an ordination. You have to go back to the diaconate. If you can prove that the diaconate ordination was invalid, then all the other susequent ordinations are invalid.

Unless the Rota can prove that the ordination is invalid, the ordination is given the benefit of the doubt, never the other way around, the same as marriage.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thanks JR. We don’t hear about this happening but it makes sense.
 
Thanks JR. We don’t hear about this happening but it makes sense.
There have been cases, but they are uisually initiated by the priest or deacon. Some men have asked for a decree of nullity rather than a dispensation. I don’t know how many are actually granted. There must be a count kept somehwere by someone. But it’s not me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top