Outrage

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vern humphrey:
And during WWI, people of German ancestry were discriminated against. There are even published reports of people killing dachshunds!!
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Right. Red Scare, German Scare, there’s always someone ready to demonize others or act irrationally. Care for a couple of packets of ketchup with your Liberty Fries, Vern?
Even if they are providing top secret information to a foreign government?
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To the best of my knowledge, not one person deported during the Red Scare of the early 20s had access to classified information nor was accused of providing such to any foreign government.
The Soviet archives are now open, and no one denies her guilt any more.
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Her culpability did not rise to the level of a death penalty offense, though her husband’s may have. The real thieves of those atomic secrets did not even get long prison terms in those few cases where they were prosecuted. If that couple were Danish Rosenburgs instead of Jewish Rosenbergs, they would not have faced any more than some jail time. Anti-semitism had a lot to do with their fates, as I saw it.
 
And once again we have people talking past each other on the war in Iraqi. No one’s arguments are new here. This is getting ridiculous, IMHO.

Whether or not we should be in Iraq, we are in Iraq, and we are trying to complete a mission. That mission isn’t to turn Iraq into us, but to restore to these people the right to chose what they want for themselves.

Our men and women are doing more reconstruction work and guarding of those doing that work than running after insurgents, as the MSM would have us believe. I don’t think anyone here, on the left or right, would be so foolish as to think the MSM isn’t more interested in showing the latest bombing than showing us the latest school opening or services restored or people back at work.

We aren’t conducting a war, in the usual sense of the word in Iraq at this point, but we are staying there until the Iraqi people can run things for themselves. That isn’t going to happen in the next few weeks but in the next few years. And as long as we have to stay there to keep the country from falling into civil war, no matter how that scenario came about, we ought to be supporting our people and their mission, which is to help Iraqi be able to stand on its own two feet as a free nation.

And no, I’m not going to argue with anyone here about my comments. This is my final word on this whole thing, which I think has been blown waaaaaaaay out of proportion, especially by those who stand to gain by making it into the most important thing going on in the world, which it ISN’T!
 
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Della:
making it [the war]into the most important thing going on in the world, which it ISN’T!
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Hear! Hear!
 
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Della:
Whether or not we should be in Iraq, we are in Iraq, and we are trying to complete a mission. That mission isn’t to turn Iraq into us, but to restore to these people the right to chose what they want for themselves.

Our men and women are doing more reconstruction work and guarding of those doing that work than running after insurgents, as the MSM would have us believe. I don’t think anyone here, on the left or right, would be so foolish as to think the MSM isn’t more interested in showing the latest bombing than showing us the latest school opening or services restored or people back at work.

We aren’t conducting a war, in the usual sense of the word in Iraq at this point, but we are staying there until the Iraqi people can run things for themselves. That isn’t going to happen in the next few weeks but in the next few years. And as long as we have to stay there to keep the country from falling into civil war, no matter how that scenario came about, we ought to be supporting our people and their mission, which is to help Iraqi be able to stand on its own two feet as a free nation.

QUOTE]

Thank you Della!
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Richardols:
Right. Red Scare, German Scare, there’s always someone ready to demonize others or act irrationally. Care for a couple of packets of ketchup with your Liberty Fries, Vern?
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I don’t eat fried foods, Richard – bad for my chloesterol.
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Richardols:
To the best of my knowledge, not one person deported during the Red Scare of the early 20s had access to classified information nor was accused of providing such to any foreign government.
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Nor did any Black child not allowed to go to a white school have access to any education.

Bad things happened in those days. If I had your Way-Back Machine, I’d go back and correct them. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Richardols:
Her culpability did not rise to the level of a death penalty offense, though her husband’s may have. The real thieves of those atomic secrets did not even get long prison terms in those few cases where they were prosecuted. If that couple were Danish Rosenburgs instead of Jewish Rosenbergs, they would not have faced any more than some jail time. Anti-semitism had a lot to do with their fates, as I saw it.
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As you saw it.

But the evidence from the Soviet Union shows they were guilty.
 
vern humphrey:
Bad things happened in those days.
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That’s justification? I think people then could have and should have known and done better.
As you saw it.
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As I still see it.

From Wikipedia:
"In 1995, the National Security Agency publicly released documents from the VENONA project, an effort to decrypt intercepted communications between Soviet agents and the NKVD/KGB. A 1944 cable from New York to Moscow makes it clear that Julius Rosenberg was engaged in espionage, though the importance of their effort is not clear, particularly considering that the Soviets were receiving information on the Atomic bomb from Klaus Fuchs and Donald Maclean. Ethel’s involvement is not clear from the VENONA transcripts. A document from November 27, 1944 [2] specifically about Ethel lists her as a “fellowcountryman” and claims that she was aware of Julius’ work, and asks for advice in whether she should be “used” or not. Ethel was apparently never assigned a code name — Julius was always referred to as “ANTENNA” or “LIBERAL” — which has cast doubt onto her significance and involvement."

Her culpability in being aware of her husband’s work never rose to the level of a death penalty offense - as apparently neither did the culpability of Greenglass, her brother-in-law, who was directly involved in the thefts.
But the evidence from the Soviet Union shows they were guilty.
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Julius, sure.

Even today, the controversy continues.
 
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Richardols:
That’s justification? I think people then could have and should have known and done better.
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Me, too – and as soon as I meet my great-grandfather in the hereafter, I’m going to tell him exactly what he should have done about it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Richardols:
Her culpability in being aware of her husband’s work never rose to the level of a death penalty offense - as apparently neither did the culpability of Greenglass, her brother-in-law, who was directly involved in the thefts.

Julius, sure.

Even today, the controversy continues.
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Well, you’re the lawyer. When are you filing the appeal?
 
vern humphrey:
Me, too – and as soon as I meet my great-grandfather in the hereafter, I’m going to tell him exactly what he should have done about it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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He wasn’t stupid, I trust. He and his contemporaries should have known and acted better.
Well, you’re the lawyer. When are you filing the appeal?
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The appeals made should have worked.

"The Rosenbergs were convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917 of “conspiring to commit espionage in wartime” and sentenced to death, despite the fact that the US was not at war with the Soviet Union at the time their ring was supposedly active.
At the time, some Americans believed both Rosenbergs…received too harsh a punishment, and a grass-roots campaign was started to try to stop the couple’s execution.

Pope Pius XII (no Commie sympathizer for sure!) appealed to President Dwight D. Eisenhower to spare the couple, but he refused on February 11, 1953 and all other appeals were also unsuccessful.
 
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Richardols:
He wasn’t stupid, I trust. He and his contemporaries should have known and acted better.
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Illiterate, yes. Stupid, no.
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Richardols:
The appeals made should have worked.

"The Rosenbergs were convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917 of “conspiring to commit espionage in wartime” and sentenced to death, despite the fact that the US was not at war with the Soviet Union at the time their ring was supposedly active.
At the time, some Americans believed both Rosenbergs…received too harsh a punishment, and a grass-roots campaign was started to try to stop the couple’s execution.

Pope Pius XII (no Commie sympathizer for sure!) appealed to President Dwight D. Eisenhower to spare the couple, but he refused on February 11, 1953 and all other appeals were also unsuccessful.
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Yes, there were people who believed they were innocent. As I say, when do you file the appeal?
 
vern humphrey:
Yes, there were people who believed they were innocent. As I say, when do you file the appeal?
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Appeals were filed, but turned down. In the atmosphere of those times, no appeal would have succeeded.

Shucks, if a direct appeal from Pius XII wasn’t enough to move Eisenhower to let them, especially Ethel, serve life terms, I doubt that he would have been moved if Jesus Christ had joined His Vicar in making the appeal for clemency.

BTW, The couple were the only two American civilians to be executed for espionage-related activity during the Cold War. In imposing the death penalty, Judge Kaufman noted that he held them responsible not only for espionage but also for the deaths of the Korean War.

Too bad he didn’t also hold them responsible for the Communist take-over in China as well, or for World War II itself.
 
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Richardols:
Her culpability did not rise to the level of a death penalty offense, though her husband’s may have. The real thieves of those atomic secrets did not even get long prison terms in those few cases where they were prosecuted. If that couple were Danish Rosenburgs instead of Jewish Rosenbergs, they would not have faced any more than some jail time. Anti-semitism had a lot to do with their fates, as I saw it.
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Since you are a lawyer, isn’t it generally accepted that if you help in a murder, you are just as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger? Many people believe that Ethel was the brains of the conspiracy and Julius was a weak follower. Regardless, both were guilty and the law provided for death.

As far as the Jewish angle goes, if I remember correctly, the judge, prosecuter, defense attorney, and defendants were all Jewish. Seems kind of hard to blame anti-semitism. Their co-defendant (Gold?, Sobel?) was also Jewish, but not sentenced to death. Wonder why he was spared? They just ran out of anti-semitism by the time the judge sentenced him?
 
vern humphrey:
Got it. What drinks do you want with that?

And is it to eat here, or to go?
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I’ll have a Dr. Pepper. And that will be to go; I’m in a rush so I can eat it in my car while on my cell phone weaving through traffic. LOL.
 
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Richardols:
Appeals were filed, but turned down. In the atmosphere of those times, no appeal would have succeeded.

Shucks, if a direct appeal from Pius XII wasn’t enough to move Eisenhower to let them, especially Ethel, serve life terms, I doubt that he would have been moved if Jesus Christ had joined His Vicar in making the appeal for clemency.
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I have no doubt you believe that – but remember, it’s your imagination talking, not verified fact.
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Richardols:
BTW, The couple were the only two American civilians to be executed for espionage-related activity during the Cold War. In imposing the death penalty, Judge Kaufman noted that he held them responsible not only for espionage but also for the deaths of the Korean War.

Too bad he didn’t also hold them responsible for the Communist take-over in China as well, or for World War II itself.
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Actually, he had a good point – the Communists wouldn’t have been so aggressvie had they not had the secret of the atomic bomb.
 
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