'Outside the Church, there is no Salvation' question

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Those are the words of mere man and don’t carry any weight with me.
Those are the words of the men who spread the Church and the Gospel to the world, being slaughtered along with their families for the faith. Their words carry with me more weight than Luther’s words, more weight than the words of whichever heresiarch founded the community you belong to, and above all else more weight than your or my words will ever carry.

Those men learned the faith from the apostles themselves or their immediate disciples. They were as close to Christ as it gets. I do not understand how could anyone be so bold as to think that they can do things better than the Church Fathers.
 
Do you believe those words? I do! I believe with all my heart
I do believe those words! But I also know that the characteristic of all heretical doctrines - from which comes the name, in Greek haireomai, “to choose” - is that their developers pick passages from Scripture, come up with their own private interpretation based on their private judgment, and ignore the rest, even though their doctrines contradict other parts of Scripture and above all else contradict the teachings of the apostolic Church.

If you learn Scripture as a whole and in unison with Tradition, you will understand that the heresies of sola fide and sola scriptura developed in the XVI century by a rebellious Catholic religious are self-defeating and anti-scriptural. If you read the Church Fathers, you will learn that your act of fiduciary faith on your side is entirely pointless towards your salvation.

According to Luther (and Calvin), the faith that justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in God’s revealed truths and promises, but is the infallible conviction (fiduciary faith) that God for the sake of Christ will no longer impute to us our sins, but will consider and treat us, as if we were really just and holy, although in our inner selves we remain the same sinners as before. This is a basic tenet of protestantism as expressed in the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord.

This “fiduciary faith” is not a religious-moral preparation of the soul for sanctifying grace, nor a free act of cooperation on the part of the sinner; it is merely a means or spiritual instrument granted by God to assist the sinner in laying hold of the righteousness of God, thereby to cover his sins in a purely external manner as with a mantle. For this reason the Lutheran formularies of belief lay great stress on the doctrine that our entire righteousness does not intrinsically belong to us, but is something altogether exterior.

In the Protestant system remission of sin is no real forgiveness, no blotting out of guilt. Sin is merely cloaked and concealed by the imputed merits of Christ; God no longer imputes it, whilst in reality it continues under cover its miserable existence till the hour of death. Thus there exist in man side by side two hostile brothers as it were — the one just and the other unjust; the one a saint, the other a sinner; the one a child of God, the other a slave of Satan — and this without any prospect of a conciliation between the two. But in a man who is at once sinful and just, half holy and half unholy, we cannot possibly recognize a masterpiece of God’s omnipotence, but only a wretched caricature, the deformity of which is exaggerated all the more by the violent introduction of the justice of Christ.

According to the teaching of the Catholic Church the righteousness and sanctity which justification confers, although given to us by God as efficient cause and merited by Christ as meritorious cause, become an interior sanctifying quality or formal cause in the soul itself, which it makes truly just and holy in the sight of God.

According to the teaching of the Catholic Church in active justification an actual and real forgiveness of sins takes place so that the sin is really removed from the soul. This view is entirely consonant with the teaching of Holy Scripture, for the Biblical expressions: “blotting out” as applied to sin (Psalm 1:3; Isaiah 43:25; 44:22; Acts 3:19), “exhausting” (Hebrews 9:28), “taking away” [2 Samuel 12:13; 1 Chronicles 21:8; Mich., vii, 18; Psalm 10:15 and 102:12], cannot be reconciled with the idea of a mere covering up of sin which is supposed to continue its existence in a covert manner. Other Biblical expressions are just as irreconcilable with this protestant idea, for instance, the expression of “cleansing” and “washing away” the mire of sin (Psalm 1:4, 9; Isaiah 1:18; Ezekiel 36:25; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Revelation 1:5), that of coming “from death to life” (Col. ii., 13; 1 John 3:14); the removal from darkness to light (Ephesians 5:9).

Justification as understood by Protestants, presents the following qualities: its absolute certainty, its equality in all, and finally the impossibility of ever losing it. According to the teaching of the Church, sanctifying grace has the *opposite *characteristics: uncertainty, inequality, and admissibility.
  • Uncertainty for, since Scripture declares that we must work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12), it is impossible to regard our individual salvation as something fixed and certain. Why did St. Paul (1 Corinthians 9:27) chastise his body if not afraid lest, having preached to others, he might himself “become a castaway”? He says expressly (1 Corinthians 4:4): “For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.”
  • Inequality: first, because according to the generosity of God or the receptive condition of the soul an unequal amount of grace is infused; then, also, because the grace originally received can be increased by the performance of good works (Proverbs 4:18; Sirach 18:22; 2 Corinthians 9:10; Ephesians 4:7; 2 Peter 3:18; Revelation 22:11).
  • Admissibility, because mortal sin involves the loss of divine grace according to Scripture. Even in the Old Testament the prophet Ezechiel (Ezekiel 18:24) says: “All his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die.” Not in vain does St. Paul (1 Corinthians 10:12) warn the just: “Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall”; and state uncompromisingly (1 Corinthians 6:9 sq.) that it is not by infidelity alone that the Kingdom of Heaven will be lost.
 
(continued)

As for sola scriptura, the belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith, it is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity, but above all else it is not found and even refuted in Scripture itself. Christ and the Apostles founded the Church by preaching and exacting faith in their doctrines. No book told as yet of the Divinity of Christ, the redeeming value of His Passion, or of His coming to judge the world; these and all similar revelations had to be believed on the word of the Apostles and their successors, the bishops, some of the most excellent of which are called the Fathers of the Church. As immediate, implicit submission of the mind was in the lifetime of the Apostles the only necessary token of faith, there was no room whatever for what is now called private judgment. This is quite clear from the words of Scripture: “Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13). The word of hearing is received through a human teacher and is believed on the authority of God, who is its first author (cf. Romans 10:17). But, if in the time of the Apostles, faith consisted in submitting to authorized teaching, it does so now; for the essence of things never changes and the foundation of the Church and of our salvation is immovable.
 
Those are the words of the men who spread the Church and the Gospel to the world, being slaughtered along with their families for the faith. Their words carry with me more weight than Luther’s words, more weight than the words of whichever heresiarch founded the community you belong to, and above all else more weight than your or my words will ever carry.

Those men learned the faith from the apostles themselves or their immediate disciples. They were as close to Christ as it gets. I do not understand how could anyone be so bold as to think that they can do things better than the Church Fathers.
God’s Word trumps our church fathers. Whether it’s Luther, Calvin, you name it - God’s Word is superior. Don’t take my word for anything either. Check what I say with scripture. If what I say agrees with the Bible, fine, but if not - challenge it and file it away in file 13.
 
God’s Word trumps our church fathers. Whether it’s Luther, Calvin, you name it - God’s Word is superior. Don’t take my word for anything either. Check what I say with scripture. If what I say agrees with the Bible, fine, but if not - challenge it and file it away in file 13.
God’s Word is Salvation.

The issue is that our Church Fathers were really good at interpreting and understanding Scripture (God’s word) because they had the best teachers ever: the apostles of Christ, the Word.

Now: when some individuals create doctrines which openly contradict the things that the Church Fathers taught and understood about the Church and salvation, leading many to follow those doctrines in good faith, the ultimate question is: who understood God’s Word better, the Church Fathers or them?

I did not become a Catholic because of the Church: I became a Catholic because of and thanks to Christ. It is Christ that retains me in the Church, and it could not be otherwise, for the more I study the history of the Church and our Christian doctrine, the more I see the obvious errors and contradictions present within the doctrines followed by Christian communities not in full communion with the Church. They simply are not doing what they are supposed to be doing, nor is their teaching what is supposed to be taught. There is more, and the incompleteness of the doctrine is more than just a sign of imperfection: it is a danger for many souls who would not have fallen prey to many snares of our adversary if only they had learned the fullness of the Christian teaching.

Rest assured that the fullness of the teaching imbues the Catholic Church to such degree that it is only a matter of time and effort for a Catholic to refute as contradictory and unscriptural each and every single error found in the over forty thousand Christian doctrines that we find in the world. This should not be reason of disgust, but of joy: for the Church is indeed the city on the hill which cannot be hidden.
 
Naturally, anti-Catholic Mike Gendron disagrees with this too.
You Can’t Find Jesus Outside the Pope’s Church
http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs182/1103609831924/img/146.jpg
Pope Francis declared on April 23rd "it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging."
Mike 's Response: When we witness to Catholics, we ask if they are a Christian. So often the response is, “No, I am a Catholic.” Anyone who knows the dogmas of Rome knows that tt is difficult to find the true, all-sufficient Jesus inside the Catholic Church. That is because Rome has characterized Jesus as merely a gate-opener to heaven instead of a Savior who did everything necessary to save repenting sinners from the complete punishment and power of sin.
However, is he telling the truth about what the Catholic faith teaches? No.
I. "LORD, LOOK UPON THE FAITH OF YOUR CHURCH"
168
It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith. Everywhere, it is the Church that first confesses the Lord: “Throughout the world the holy Church acclaims you”, as we sing in the hymn “Te Deum”; with her and in her, we are won over and brought to confess: “I believe”, “We believe”. It is through the Church that we receive faith and new life in Christ by Baptism. In the Rituale Romanum, the minister of Baptism asks the catechumen: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” And the answer is: “Faith.” “What does faith offer you?” "Eternal life."54
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
II. THE LANGUAGE OF FAITH

170
We do not believe in formulas, but in those realities they express, which faith allows us to touch. "The believer’s act [of faith] does not terminate in the propositions, but in the realities [which they express]."56 All the same, we do approach these realities with the help of formulations of the faith which permit us to express the faith and to hand it on, to celebrate it in community, to assimilate and live on it more and more.
171 The Church, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”, faithfully guards “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints”. She guards the memory of Christ’s words; it is she who from generation to generation hands on the apostles’ confession of faith.57 As a mother who teaches her children to speak and so to understand and communicate, the Church our Mother teaches us the language of faith in order to introduce us to the understanding and the life of faith.
Link for context.

Of course, as usual, his remarks are presented out of context in order to further his anti-Catholic propaganda. Click here for that context of Pope Francis’ homily.
 
“Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6.

I am not in the Catholic Church, yet by grace, through faith in Him, I have confidence that Jesus Christ who died in my place on the cross for my sins is giving me salvation. He has done what I could not do for myself. In response, I am leaning on Him and trusting in Him to take me through each day in my life.
Only God will be the final judge of who does and doesn’t go to Heaven, but it does say In Matthew chapter 7:

True and False Disciples

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

You have to do the will of God to enter Heaven. It is God’s will for His followers to belong to His one and only Church that He set up.👍
 
Those are the words of mere man and don’t carry any weight with me. On the other hand, what God has given us through His Word is a message of life and hope through His Son Jesus Christ:

Spirit, I believe with all my heart that Jesus died in my place and that He will one day take me home to be with Him forever. I am now a child of God and a member of His church, the Bride of Christ.
But there are other scripture passages too…that say one must persevere. Have you read those too?

From Rom 11:

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.[g] 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Rom 2:
6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

Heb 10:
36 For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

You will have to endure to the end…following God’s commandment…to make it. It is not assured…as Paul also wrote…work our your salvation with fear and trembling.
 
God’s Word trumps our church fathers. Whether it’s Luther, Calvin, you name it - God’s Word is superior.

Don’t take my word for anything either. Check what I say with scripture. If what I say agrees with the Bible, fine, but if not - challenge it and file it away in file 13./QUOTE]

This is unbiblical, my friend. The Bible cannot speak.

This is the Biblical way, following the example of St. paul:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

And from from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
 
But there are other scripture passages too…that say one must persevere. Have you read those too?

From Rom 11:

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.[g] 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Rom 2:
6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

Heb 10:
36 For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

You will have to endure to the end…following God’s commandment…to make it. It is not assured…as Paul also wrote…work our your salvation with fear and trembling.
Thank your for those wonderful points of scripture. I certainly do believe that one must persevere in the faith. Just to be sure that everyone knows…I am about as far from being Calvinistic as one can be.
 
Zackeera;10701250:
God’s Word trumps our church fathers. Whether it’s Luther, Calvin, you name it - God’s Word is superior.

Don’t take my word for anything either. Check what I say with scripture. If what I say agrees with the Bible, fine, but if not - challenge it and file it away in file 13./
QUOTE]

This is unbiblical, my friend. The Bible cannot speak.

This is the Biblical way, following the example of St. paul:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

And from from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

God speaks to us today through His word:

From 2 Timothy 3:
"4 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,…"

Look at the example of the Bereans, who were being taught, but were considered more noble because what they were being taught was confirmed through scripture:

From Acts 17:
"
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

If we do not follow that example, we will stray from the Way, the Truth and the Life.
 
Only God will be the final judge of who does and doesn’t go to Heaven, but it does say In Matthew chapter 7:

True and False Disciples

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

You have to do the will of God to enter Heaven. It is God’s will for His followers to belong to His one and only Church that He set up.👍
I certainly agree that we must do the will of the Father in order to enter into heaven. When we abide in Jesus and He abides in us, our desires change and we want to do His will.
 
So…how is this accomplished today? How does God makes his words known?
From 2 Timothy 3:
"4 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus
.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,…"

So what about this passage above? How does this help you determine what is truth and what is not truth?
Look at the example of the Bereans, who were being taught, but were considered more noble because what they were being taught was confirmed through scripture:
From Acts 17:
"
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."
If we do not follow that example, we will stray from the Way, the Truth and the Life.
The bereans were considered mor noble because they were more open to receiving the Word of God…not because they went to the Scriptures.

But that does not answer the question I asked you…following the example of St. Paul…in in light of 1john4v6…how will you determine what is truth and what is not?
 
I certainly agree that we must do the will of the Father in order to enter into heaven. When we abide in Jesus and He abides in us, our desires change and we want to do His will.
But then…where does the Bible say…what are we to do to continue to abide in Christ and Christ to abide in us?
 
Through the preaching of God’s word from scripture as well as by us reading His word from scripture.
So what about this passage above? How does this help you determine what is truth and what is not truth?
As 2 Timothy 3:16 indicates, I believe that all scripture was inspired by God. Since God does not lie and all things from Him are truth, I believe that the scriptures He inspired are true.
The bereans were considered mor noble because they were more open to receiving the Word of God…not because they went to the Scriptures.
But Acts 17:11 says this: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Again, this comes from scripture, which I believe to be true.
But that does not answer the question I asked you…following the example of St. Paul…in in light of 1john4v6…how will you determine what is truth and what is not?
I test everything against what is written in scripture. If what is said to me conflicts with scripture, it is another gospel. If what man tells me is not consistent with the word of God, I will believe what is written by the inspiration of God over man. every time.
 
But then…where does the Bible say…what are we to do to continue to abide in Christ and Christ to abide in us?
In a nutshell, I think the book of 1 John is an excellent book to answer your question. I’d be happy to discuss it, even if it means starting another thread, if you’re interested. It’s a relatively short book with just 5 chapters, but wow, is it ever powerful! My spirit is lifted every time I read from it.
 
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