Outside the Church there is no salvation

[steve_b]

NO church will save us.

Please explain

rev]

Only the relationship we form between us, personally, and Jesus Christ.

And that means DO what He says…correct?
rev:

Belief on Him as God, TRUST Him,

Good words. If one doesn’t DO what Jesus commanded can they say they believe in Him as God? If they don’t DO what He commanded can they say they really TRUST in Him?
rev:

do not rely on good works, your bring born again will naturally have you doing good works AS A RESULT of The Holy Spirit being inside you all.

You can rely on faith working in love, NOT by faith alone
rev:

we cannot “earn” our way to heaven. that would suggest what Jesus did wasn’t good enough.

agreed
rev:

dont confess. REPENT. and mean it.

It’s NOT either/or it’s BOTH

 

[golfjack]

Many seem to think that they can live a holy life by themselves. It is true that we must love Jesus, and keep His commandments, but many of us can do this? So, what do we do? John 14:16 tells us that God will give believers a Helper, ( Holy Spirit). What can He do? He will convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He will guide you into all truth. He will show you things to come. He will glorify Christ. He will take the things of Christ, and show it to you.

The Holy Spirit has continued to evangelize the world and to guide believers as they study God’s Word, helping them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. He will continue His great ministry until Jesus comes to rapture the Church.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[CentralFLJames]

Many seem to think that they can live a holy life by themselves. It is true that we must love Jesus, and keep His commandments, but many of us can do this? So, what do we do? John 14:16 tells us that God will give believers a Helper, ( Holy Spirit). What can He do? He will convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He will guide you into all truth. He will show you things to come. He will glorify Christ. He will take the things of Christ, and show it to you.

The Holy Spirit has continued to evangelize the world and to guide believers as they study God’s Word, helping them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. He will continue His great ministry until Jesus comes to rapture the Church.

    Peace,    Golfjack

The Holy Spirit works through Jesus’ Church and in its members to evangelize the Church and convert those from fractional truths to the fullness of the Catholic Church. There is only one Spirit of God and only One Truth and only One Church. So we can be certain where the Holy Spirit is not working when we see new divisions created in the ever splintering communities of the various ecclesial communities and can see where He is working when we see new Catholic Churches in various new places around the world. Those outside of the Catholic Church who nevertheless maintain some elements of sanctification will be progressively drawn to the fullness of the Faith in the Catholic Church.

And by the way the Holy Spirit never taught that there is a pre-tribulation rapture - that is a new invention of a single man named John Darby that contemporary Protestant book writers are trying to profit from. The Holy Spirit does not operate through the advertising network of the prosperity-gospel culture. The Holy Spirit has given no new knowledge which can be purchased in a secular book that can let anyone avoid sharing in the sufferings of Christ. Our baptism guarantees that we must suffer in Christ so that we can be glorified in Christ and if called to it martyred for Christ. There is no such thing as a rapture except for in the minds of those who enjoy paperback fictions and that sort of fantasy genre.

James

 

[steve_b]

Many seem to think that they can live a holy life by themselves. It is true that we must love Jesus, and keep His commandments, but many of us can do this? So, what do we do? John 14:16 tells us that God will give believers a Helper, ( Holy Spirit). What can He do? He will convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He will guide you into all truth.

He will show you things to come. He will glorify Christ. He will take the things of Christ, and show it to you.

The Holy Spirit has continued to evangelize the world and to guide believers as they study God’s Word, helping them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. He will continue His great ministry until Jesus comes to rapture the Church.

Peace, Golfjack

Could you explain the rapture from scripture.

 

[golfjack]

James, Again, it comes down to what a church is and who belongs to it. Members are believers and all have the Holy Spirit working in their lives. When Jesus died on the cross, it wasn’t meant just for a few select or even many Catholics. It was meant for all. Nowhere did Jesus say what you are trying to preach. In fact, I learned more outside the Catholic church than I ever learned it. Why? The Holy Spirit’s guidance.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[golfjack]

Each member of the church is His temple, and is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit ( 1 Cor. 6:19, 20). James, I am the Church, with Jesus as head. A temple is a place of worship, we are to worship our God when alone or with others, who are part of the holy temple ( Matt. 28:16, 17).

Christ is the vine, and the church His branches ( John 15:5). Christ the last Adam, the church His New Creation. The first Adam was given life; the last Adam is the life-giver ( John 1:4).
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Yes, Jesus saves - but He saves ONLY through His Church. There is not distinction between Bride and Groom - since the two are joined “as one” in the marriage of Jesus with His Church and become One in God. So you simply can not seperate Jesus from His Church, his bride, without attempting to divide The Trinity against itself. Impossible. There is no physical or spiritual way to love Jesus without also loving His Church - His Bride. And if you think you can divide one from the other by preaching so then you speak “a lie of man” and that my friend is not compatible with one of the elect and such a false work is proclaiming a false gospel and if unrepentant will earn you the wage of a heretic.

So, just wanted to be certain–it is, then, impossible for a man to love Jesus without having encountered and mastered Catholic doctrines of what a Church is?

 

[CentralFLJames]

So, just wanted to be certain–it is, then, impossible for a man to love Jesus without having encountered and mastered Catholic doctrines of what a Church is?

\

I mentioned nothing about mastering Catholic doctrines. There are plenty of Catholics who would not call themselves “masters” of the Catechism but who are very much in love with Christ. On the other hand no one can love Jesus while teaching divisions contrary to the One Apostolic Faith handed down through the Catholic Church for 2,000 years. One does not love Jesus by slandering His intimate relationship to His Church - His Bride. One can not walk up to Jesus and say “I love you but I hate and scorn your spouse”.

When St. Paul speaks of “faith alone” it is not meant to be exclusive of other requirements and in fact he is really speaking in an assumed covental sense for the entire [at that time Jewish] community of believers (what is now the Catholic Church). He is not speaking in the sense of a seperate lone-ranger sort of personalized and unique faith (e.g. “me my bible and Jesus”). This is a neo-Christian concept that was completely alien to the Jews and the early Church. While there were some different internal philosophies within Judaism (Pharisee, Saudecee, Essenes, Ebionites, Zealots) they were all still one people under the general “Jewish Covenant” of “God’s Chosen”. So it is similar within Christianity - Catholicism has within it various rites and traditions but there is only “one new covenant people” under one universal teaching of faith and one governmental system (the apostolic succession and ecclesial order). Protestantism in comparison is as far “out of camp” as the Samaritans were with the Judaic Jews and are only marginally related to the new covenant people by baptism.

Thus to answer your question - there is no necessity for those within His Church to as you say “master” Catholic doctrines to encounter Christ. Children and adult while in a state of supernatural grace alike can encounter a “personal Jesus” every time they attend mass and go to communion and while in a state of grace contemplate through prayer. All that is required is a core belief and apostolic endowment with the sacramental rights to receive and participate. But even these are called to perfect themselves and grow in the faith. But for those who are “related” to The Catholic Church through baptism but are not within her corpus only those who are seperated by reasons of innocence of the knowledge of the necessity to be Catholic and who are not in grave sin can love Christ. So in this sense “some” can love Christ outside of the formal Catholic Church but those that do are axiomatically “in” the Catholic Church through innocence of necessity to be so. But at the same time it is unlikely that over the course of one’s life that anyone outside of the Catholic Church does not come to hear of the necessity to be Catholic and must make a conscious decision to go look into the matter or reject it.

Careless rejection of the truth does not relieve one from the necessity or the moral imperative to know the truth. And one can not worship in spirit and truth with an indifferent attitude - much less love Jesus with a spirit of indifferentism.

James

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Thus to answer your question - there is no necessity for those within His Church to as you say “master” Catholic doctrines to encounter Christ. Children and adult while in a state of supernatural grace alike can encounter a “personal Jesus” every time they attend mass and go to communion and while in a state of grace contemplate through prayer. All that is required is a core belief and apostolic endowment with the sacramental rights to receive and participate. But even these are called to perfect themselves and grow in the faith. But for those who are “related” to The Catholic Church through baptism but are not within her corpus only those who are seperated by reasons of innocence of the knowledge of the necessity to be Catholic and who are not in grave sin can love Christ. So in this sense “some” can love Christ outside of the formal Catholic Church but those that do are axiomatically “in” the Catholic Church through innocence of necessity to be so.

Fair enough.

But at the same time it is unlikely that over the course of one’s life that anyone outside of the Catholic Church does not come to hear of the necessity to be Catholic and must make a conscious decision to go look into the matter or reject it.

You might be surprised. In America at least, I’m not sure that Catholics understand just how little-known their doctrines are throughout entire populations and regions (esp. outside the cities), and just how peculiar and non-organic to Chistianity they can seem to many a Protestant first encountering them. At first blush, they might not look any more deserving of investigation than Mormon notions of cosmology!

 

[steve_b]

James, Again, it comes down to what a church is and who belongs to it. Members are believers and all have the Holy Spirit working in their lives. When Jesus died on the cross, it wasn’t meant just for a few select or even many Catholics. It was meant for all. Nowhere did Jesus say what you are trying to preach. In fact, I learned more outside the Catholic church than I ever learned it. Why? The Holy Spirit’s guidance.

Peace, Golfjack

Are you saying you are an ex Catholic or were you always a protestant?

 

[golfjack]

Steve, I am a x-catholic. I left the Catholic church in 1979.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Matariel]

Steve, I am a x-catholic. I left the Catholic Church in 1979.

I’m an ex-Protestant. I left Protestantism back in 2008, and joined the true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Golfjack,

Your losing your focus … return to my post #208 … I am still waiting for a response.

Stay focused. Respond to questions. Don’t ramble. Don’t disappoint me!

Many seem to think that they can live a holy life by themselves. It is true that we must love Jesus, and keep His commandments, but many of us can do this? So, what do we do? John 14:16 tells us that God will give believers a Helper, ( Holy Spirit). What can He do? He will convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. He will guide you into all truth. He will show you things to come. He will glorify Christ. He will take the things of Christ, and show it to you.

The Holy Spirit has continued to evangelize the world and to guide believers as they study God’s Word, helping them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. He will continue His great ministry until Jesus comes to rapture the Church. Peace, Golfjack

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Golfjack,

Let me see if I have this correct… the Holy Spirit is boycotting the Catholic Chruch according to you?

James, Again, it comes down to what a church is and who belongs to it. Members are believers and all have the Holy Spirit working in their lives. When Jesus died on the cross, it wasn’t meant just for a few select or even many Catholics. It was meant for all. Nowhere did Jesus say what you are trying to preach. In fact, I learned more outside the Catholic church than I ever learned it. Why? The Holy Spirit’s guidance.

Now, this is the same Church that Christ promised the that the Holy Spirit would guide and protect … you recall, the one Christ build with Peter as the Foundation and that we can trace to Benedict XVI today? Yes, that same Chruch of Christ you claim to have left because you were not getting anything out of it. Yep! The same one

There are spirits out there, Golfjack, that can do a pretty good job of fooling a lot of people. Being convinced that the Holy Spirit abandoned the Chruch founded by Jesus Christ looks like a mistaken idea to me. Unlike thinking that 2 + 2 = 5 … this type of mistake can cause much grief for all eternity… Peace, Golfjack

Seriously, that ‘spirit filled’ group you talk about may be filled with the wrong spirits.

God bless

 

[teak421]

James, Again, it comes down to what a church is and who belongs to it. Members are believers and all have the Holy Spirit working in their lives. When Jesus died on the cross, it wasn’t meant just for a few select or even many Catholics. It was meant for all. Nowhere did Jesus say what you are trying to preach. In fact, I learned more outside the Catholic church than I ever learned it. Why? The Holy Spirit’s guidance.

   Peace,   Golfjack

I’m the exact opposite than yourself. I’ve learned so much more in the Catholic faith than when I was a Protestant. Its far deeper (in my opinion)…

• Michael

 

[teak421]

So, just wanted to be certain–it is, then, impossible for a man to love Jesus without having encountered and mastered Catholic doctrines of what a Church is?

The Church recognizes valid trinitarian(sp?) baptisms from other Christian sects… Should answer your question.

• Michael

 

[Matariel]

I’m the exact opposite than yourself. I’ve learned so much more in the Catholic faith than when I was a Protestant. Its far deeper (in my opinion)…

• Michael

Same with me. Catholicism is the fullness, whereas the Protestantism I came from was only bits and pieces mixed with human teachings.

 

[golfjack]

I would be interested in hearing where some of you Prot. came out of?
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Luke65]

dont confess. REPENT. and mean it.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

Should we listen to God or should we listen to you? You know, you can do it God’s way or you can do it your way - its your free will. But here is God’s way:

“Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” (Matthew 11:29)

“Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.” (1 Peter 5:6)

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.” (Matthew 23:2-3)

“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” (Hebrews 13:17)

“you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)

“This is love for God: to obey his commands.” (1 John 5:3)

In fact, I learned more outside the Catholic church than I ever learned it. Why? The Holy Spirit’s guidance.

If I were you I wouldn’t attribute your errors to the Holy Spirit…

“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.” (John 14:15-17)

So, if you throw off the yoke of our Lord, and refuse to submit to the authorities that He has put over you, if you disobey God’s commands, why exactly do you think it is the Holy Spirit who is guiding you? Any spirit that leads you off the Ark of Salvation is not holy. Have you even “received the Holy Spirit”?

“When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money…” (Acts 8:18)

Have you received the Sacrament of Confirmation from an apostolic authority? If you did, have you denied the power of this form of godliness? I hope you guys will take these things to heart, and understand how God works. He gives grace to those who humble themselves and obey His commands, including His command to obey the Church that He has given us. God bless.

 

[steve_b]

Steve, I am a x-catholic. I left the Catholic church in 1979.

Why?