Outside the Church there is no salvation

[tqualey]

Hi, Allenthorn,

Welcome to the list. I think you will find it a wealth of insight and inspiration.

Now, on to your concerns…

Before I began RCIA, I researched that question (no salvation…). My research says the Church’s postion is that salvation is through believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
My wife, of 43 years, and I were originally brought to faith in Jesus Christ as our savior through the Charismatic Renewal in the early '70’s. We then were “non-denom” for 20 years.I entered the True Church on Easter Vigil of 2005.
:yup::yup:She will not discuss converting and will not discuss church teachings. However, she reads the Bible every day , prays everyday, always turns to God for answers to any problem. Always witnesses to nonbelievers, always quick to pray in public for others…If my wife has no salvation(outside the Church) then there is no hope for me, or my children(all Bible thumping believers), or anyone else.
I have been known to be wrong… upon occasion.

Congratualtions on your 43 years of marriage - you and your wife set a beautiful example. And, both of you are not only different, but totally unique. This matter of which is the True Church is more then a matter of which way to squeeze the toothpaste or which way the toilet paper should unroll - but, some married couples can not agree on these trivial matters. They hold their own unique views on these and other subjects.

Based on what you have said, your wife is a deeply religious person who simply does not believe that the Catholic Church is the True Church. To my way of thinking, this is invincible ignorance and she will not be faulted for this. Belief in the Catholic Church is a Grace from God that you have received and others - no matter how dear to you - have not.

I would recommend that you set at least an equally good example of prayer and meditation and of doing good works motivated by your Faith in Christ. Your prayers for your family will not go unheard and our prayers will be joining yours!

God bless

 

[lookaround]

James, It is because of the Blood that Jesus has shed for us that I have been made saintly in the eyes of God. In fact, there is no remission of sin without the Blood of the Lamb.

My friend, you are the one who is in error, and will have to account to God for telling people that they cannot be saved without the Catholic Church. :tsktsk::banghead:

   Peace,   Golfjack

Golfjack, I would honestly like to know if you feel no connection anymore to your Catholic faith. I am not asking to condemn you, but when being honest with myself I don’t think I could ever completely stop being Catholic. Even if I never set a foot in a Catholic Church ever again.

 

[holy_moly]

Same reason Lucifer & his co-horts (also Adam & Eve) rebeled when they had the perfect natures of angels, pride, arrogance, ignorance, rebellion & total self-absorbtion.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I’d like to share the most beautiful expressions of extra ecclesium nallu sallus that I’ve seen. It also is, to me, one of the most valuable because it is God’s own sacred words.

The expression of this truth that I’m referring to is Psalm 87. The Church is, of course, the new Zion. The old Zion represents that which God has made new. The words of the Old Testament about Zion also typologically refer to the Church. Anyway, here is what the Bible says:

Psalms
Chapter 87
1
1 A psalm of the Korahites. A song. The LORD loves the city founded on holy mountains,
2
2 Loves the gates of Zion more than any dwelling in Jacob.
3
Glorious things are said of you, O city of God! Selah
4
From Babylon and Egypt I count those who acknowledge the LORD. Philistia, Ethiopia, Tyre, of them it can be said: “This one was born there.”
5
3 But of Zion it must be said: “They all were born here.” The Most High confirms this;
6
the Lord notes in the register of the peoples: “This one was born here.” Selah
7
So all sing in their festive dance: “Within you is my true home.”

According to the passage, for all believers, within Zion is the true home. The Lord notes in the register of the peoples that they were born in His Church, and “all sing in their festive dance, ‘within you is my true home.’” “Of Zion it must be said, ‘they all were born here.’” The only people who will be found with salvation are found in Zion, the city of God, the Church that Christ created.

 

[PJM]

=allenthorn;5361584]Before I began RCIA, I researched that question (no salvation…). My research says the Church’s postion is that salvation is through believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
My wife, of 43 years, and I were originally brought to faith in Jesus Christ as our savior through the Charismatic Renewal in the early '70’s. We then were “non-denom” for 20 years.I entered the True Church on Easter Vigil of 2005.
:yup::yup:She will not discuss converting and will not discuss church teachings. However, she reads the Bible every day , prays everyday, always turns to God for answers to any problem. Always witnesses to nonbelievers, always quick to pray in public for others…If my wife has no salvation(outside the Church) then there is no hope for me, or my children(all Bible thumping believers), or anyone else.
I have been known to be wrong… upon occasion.

***Some Catholics can be very “subjective” in applying their objectivity.

As I spelled out in an eariler post on this string The Catholic Church teaches

One need not be a Catholic to be saved!*

That all Christians are by virtue of the One Triune Godhead, the One Suffering Christ and a common Baptism, are mysteriously connected to Mother Church, thus “in accord to the Divine Will of God” all salvation is through the Catholic Church, even if some do not recogonize it.

A truth does not have to be believed and accepted to remain The Truth!/SIZE]

As for your wifes posture, don’t fret! Like Jesus told Mary Magdalin; “you have the better part” but he never told Martha that she was not saved.

The Holy Spirit grants Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding to whom HE is pleased to do so. You have the Sacraments, she does not. Continue to pray for her.

Jesus also told His deciples not to prohibit those working in “my name” because they can’t do this and defame me, even if they are not part of our church.

Matthew 11: 25 ”At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him”

Be at peace and let how you live our faith be your understanding of what we believe and practice,

Love and prayers,**

 

[CentralFLJames]

***Some Catholics can be very “subjective” in applying their objectivity.

As I spelled out in an eariler post on this string The Catholic Church teaches

One need not be a Catholic to be saved!***

That all Christians are by virtue of the One Triune Godhead, the One Suffering Christ and a common Baptism, are mysteriously connected to Mother Church, thus “in accord to the Divine Will of God” all salvation is through the Catholic Church, even if some do not recogonize it.

A truth does not have to be believed and accepted to remain The Truth!

As for your wifes posture, don’t fret! Like Jesus told Mary Magdalin; “you have the better part” but he never told Martha that she was not saved.

The Holy Spirit grants Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding to whom HE is pleased to do so. You have the Sacraments, she does not. Continue to pray for her.

Jesus also told His deciples not to prohibit those working in “my name” because they can’t do this and defame me, even if they are not part of our church.

Matthew 11: 25 ”At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him”

Be at peace and let how you live our faith be your understanding of what we believe and practice,

Love and prayers,

PJM, I have a little bit of a problem with a few statements here:

Your Statement #1:
The Catholic Church teaches: One need not be a Catholic to be saved!

Correction 1 :
This is an invalid mode of interpretation that amalgamates multiple contexts and semantics to project a pandering formula that operates to remove the imperative to be Catholic and becomes illicit as a universal projection and synthesis of Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church DOES teach that one MUST be joined to her to be saved. If she did not believe this she would have no authority to be speaking for those outside of her communion as if giving a permission not to enter her as you suggest here. The Church teaches that the NORMATIVE means to salvation is ONLY through The Church but that God may through supernatural means join others as He deems fit through motions of Mercy to her. “I will show Mercy to whom I shall show Mercy”. But no-one maintaining a belligerent disregard to the Catholic teaching can be saved while in communion with a state of defiance through the anti-sacrament of pride. Obstinate disobedience is not a virtue it is a vice - a vice incompatible with regeneration and a marker for re-probation.

Your Statement #2:
As for your wife’s (sp) posture, don’t fret! Like Jesus told Mary Magdalene (sp); “you have the better part” but he never told Martha that she was not saved.

Correction #2:
This is false analogy. Jesus was NOT talking about a plurality of Christian faiths here. He was speaking only to different callings within The Church - one choosing to be a servant of the temporal order within the ONE ecclesia vs. the one choosing to be a teacher of the faith through example of piety and penance.

–
Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Being with Christ means being in Christ. There is NO plurality of bodies - there is only one Christ and One Church.

James

 

[PJM]

PJM, I have a little bit of a problem with a few statements here:

Your Statement #1:
The Catholic Church teaches: One need not be a Catholic to be saved!

Correction 1 :
This is an invalid mode of interpretation that amalgamates multiple contexts and semantics to project a pandering formula that operates to remove the imperative to be Catholic and becomes illicit as a universal projection and synthesis of Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church DOES teach that one MUST be joined to her to be saved. If she did not believe this she would have no authority to be speaking for those outside of her communion as if giving a permission not to enter her as you suggest here.

Nice Vocabulary.

Was I not specific enough? I said clearly that through a common belief in the Trinity, and the Slavic Actions of Christ the Redeemer and a common Baptism of Water and Spirit, that all Christian denominations ARE CONNECTED to the Catholic Church, and threrfore Salvation is through the Catholic church. You may wish to review what it is that was shared?

Your statement of “belligerent disreard; state of definance” chooses to ignore that the Holy Spirit grants to whom He God the HS chooses, necessary understanding. If said disbelief is welf willed, your point, while highly judgemental may be valid? If however it is the result of teaching and learning in error, and such positions are “pure of heart”, you judge incorrectly, and unjustly.

1 Cor. 12: 1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Your Statement #2:
As for your wife’s (sp) posture, don’t fret! Like Jesus told Mary Magdalene (sp); “you have the better part” but he never told Martha that she was not saved.

Correction #2:
This is false analogy. Jesus was NOT talking about a plurality of Christian faiths here. He was speaking only to different callings within The .

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:​

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition,

the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation : the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.​

*Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with Me *

is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Being with Christ means being in Christ. There is NO plurality of bodies - there is only one Christ and One Church.

James

Mark 9: 38 “John said to him, “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, * and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.”

Matthew and Mark are not saying different teachings, you Brother James seem to be taking it as such. NOTE the words in Matthew: “He who is NOT WITH ME.”

Are you going to tell me [in opposition to the Church] that one need be a Catholic to be saved? Shame on you Brother. Are the Graham’s and Dr. Dobson, despite the Mighty works they have done for the Lord, going to hell simply because they are not Catholic?

1 Jn. 5: 20 “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.”

Mt. 11: 25" At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him"

James dear friend, your understanding while well ententioned lack, lack the understanding of actual Church teachings.

Love and prayers,

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tradycja,

Thank you for the correction and the citations.

I do have a question on this matter … and, amazingly… I think it is in keeping with the context of this thread!

I just mention this because if you follow the logic of your statement strictly, it would be better for us not to preach the Faith to people, because once they know it they are bound to believe it. That wouldn’t make sense however, because that would mean we are placing liabilities on people by preaching the Gospel to them. No, we are not placing liabilities on people, we are presenting them the ONLY faith that can save them from their sins and from hell.

I really do not see this as a logical progression from my statement for the following reeasons:

1.) Christ was quite clear about our obligation to go out and spread the Good News and to baptize all the nations (Matt 28:19).

2.) Christ told His Disciples to teach everyone - even those who would not accept this teaching. If those who had been presented with the Good News rejected it, the Disciples were given clear instructions on shaking the dust from their feet as they left that town (Matt 10:14).

3.) On Pentecost with the Power of the Holy Spirit guiding his words and actions St Peter spoke to the assembled multitude - and converted many. But, the Scripture does not tell us that all who heard were moved to conversion (Acts 2:1-41). The presumption is that God will not trample on the Free Will of His creatures.

4.) Paul tells us he is under strict obligation to preach the Good News - and he preached to Jews who rejected him and he preached to Greek Pagans in Athens who also rejcted him - and he keeps on preaching so that some may be saved (1Cor 9:16-23)

5.) Finally, Christ spoke at length to the entire Jewish Leadership, individually, in small and large groups, and finally at His ‘trial’ before the Sanhedrin. Some of these men were apparently moved to believe (Nicodemus would be an early example (John 3:4), but, later at the Council of Jerusalem with the crisis of the Judiazers and circumcision (Acts 15).

As I appreciate the situation, and from the documentation I have provided, our obligation is clear: to do our best to spread the Good News. Those who hear, believe and then act on that belief - will be saved through the Grace of God. Those who ultimately reject the Grace of God will face God’s Justice.

To withhold teaching because some may reject the Word of God would mean that others who would have accepted it have now been deprived - and, surely, this is not the Will of God.

God bless,

 

[CentralFLJames]

I wanted to give a select quote from Orestes Brownson that applies here:
Fragment from: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus Part III (Orestes Brownson):

More here: orestesbrownson.com/index.php?id=15
Full Collection here: orestesbrownson.com/writings

Yet, if there is any truth in what we have said of the teleological character of the Christian order, and that it is and can be entered only by the new birth, or “new creation,” as St. Paul calls it, this invincible ignorance, even if really invincible, which it rarely is, though it excuses from the sin of heresy or infidelity, does not of itself leave the soul in a salvable state, for it confers no positive virtue, elevates not the soul to the teleological or supernatural order, nor places it on the plane of its destiny, Else, why are not unbaptized infants dying in infancy saved? Why can they never see God in the beatific vision? They are incapable of actual sin, and are assuredly invincibly ignorant. The reason is that the teleological or supernatural order, though it presupposes the initial or natural order, is not developed or evolved from it. We are not placed from our birth from Adam on the plane of our beatitude, but to reach it must be born again, created anew in Christ Jesus; a new and a higher life must be begotten in us, the life which flows out from the Incarnation, a life of which the Word made flesh is the author and fountain. Salvation, or what is the same thing, heaven, beatitude, is not reached by any possible natural progress, for it does not lie in the plane of nature, or the natural order, that is, the order of generation, as the rationalists pretend. They recognize no teleological order, no end or final cause of man’s existence, and their heaven is no higher than the Christian’s hell.

Bottom Line - Invincible Ignorance while mitigating guilt CONFERS NO GRACE!

There is NO such valid sola as “sola ignoramus indomitable”.



Other musings:

An empty clay-pot, even if its owner escapes the natural calamities and misfortunes normally encountered along life’s bumpy pathways to stay whole remains EMPTY until it is filled at the well. But the thirsty ignoramus who does chance upon the well is just as likely to then toss in a penny for good-luck as he is to think to dip his pot to fill it to the brim. Perhaps on a three times “lucky” day he would actually think to dip his pot and escape not cracking it on the bottom as he tried to scoop up the other shiny pennies he would greedily want in his pockets. But then no doubt run off with his pockets and hands full thinking himself fortuitously rich having traded his clay pot for good-luck and good-fortune.

An alternative maxim would be:
One can lead a horse to water but one can not prevent it from bottom feeding in the grit; it will come up for air still thirsty.

Grace can not be stolen nor spontaneously manifest by wishful thinking. It is not a natural forensic entitlement to both fool and wise alike. No – it is a gift that must be claimed but then used for the benefit of building up the Body of Christ - The Church. It simply CAN NOT operate to work against the unity of the Church and any who try to do so are imagine that unity can be gained through plurality of faiths is living and thinking in a disgraced relationship.

James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, CentralFLJames,

I enjoyed reading and thinking about this concept

Grace can not be stolen nor spontaneously manifest by wishful thinking. It is not a natural forensic entitlement to both fool and wise alike. No – it is a gift that must be claimed but then used for the benefit of building up the Body of Christ - The Church. It simply CAN NOT operate to work against the unity of the Church and any who try to do so are imagine that unity can be gained through plurality of faiths is living and thinking in a disgraced relationship.

The idea of ‘stealing’ Grace, just never entered into my mind… Thank God for His many, many free Gifts of Himself!

God bless

 

[PJM]

I wanted to give a select quote from Orestes Brownson that applies here:

Bottom Line - Invincible Ignorance while mitigating guilt CONFERS NO GRACE!

There is NO such valid sola as “sola ignoramus indomitable”.

Other musings:

An empty clay-pot, even if its owner escapes the natural calamities and misfortunes normally encountered along life’s bumpy pathways to stay whole remains EMPTY until it is filled at the well. But the thirsty ignoramus who does chance upon the well is just as likely to then toss in a penny for good-luck as he is to think to dip his pot to fill it to the brim. Perhaps on a three times “lucky” day he would actually think to dip his pot and escape not cracking it on the bottom as he tried to scoop up the other shiny pennies he would greedily want in his pockets. But then no doubt run off with his pockets and hands full thinking himself fortuitously rich having traded his clay pot for good-luck and good-fortune.

An alternative maxim would be:
One can lead a horse to water but one can not prevent it from bottom feeding in the grit; it will come up for air still thirsty.

Grace can not be stolen nor spontaneously manifest by wishful thinking. It is not a natural forensic entitlement to both fool and wise alike. No – it is a gift that must be claimed but then used for the benefit of building up the Body of Christ - The Church. It simply CAN NOT operate to work against the unity of the Church and any who try to do so are imagine that unity can be gained through plurality of faiths is living and thinking in a disgraced relationship.

James

James, very insitefull.

But if one has the understanding that they already possess the truth, what then is their motivation to seek our truth? And yes I agree “our truth is THE TRUTH!”

Love and prayers,

 

[Detales]

You know, in all of this, I keep going back to Mark 4:33,34. It seems from that one little fact that there is an immense realm of information and teaching that is not public. If it was me, I would think that maybe the scriptures we have are fine as far as they go, but are incomplete as to what may very well be the actual depths of Jesus’ teaching. I mean, even in ordinary circumstances, having been privy to conversations to and from lectures in my Mentor’s car, there is a HECK of a lot that is fundamentally pertinent to public statements that are not there publicly stated. Some “background” dynamics could in some instances do actual harm. In fact, many teachers and societies reserve the imparting of their actual and deep teaching to a select few who have shown the capacity to recieve and that teaching use in a stable state of mind. I am also reminded of Walt Whitman who said that “I and mine teach not thorugh discourse or argument, but by Presence.” Who, let me ask you, might have had more Presence than Jesus???

I therefore submit that the scriptural basis of teachings regarding not only salvation but all else are partial, and to that degree unreliable. Do you sincerely think that the Apostles had an nth of Jesus Presence? Or do you think that their knowldege was comple or that their understanding was complete? If you think that, may I please refer you to Korzybski’s “structural differential” as a visual model of how information is transmitted.

I would fruther like to add that I was present when a very charismatic and exceptionally learned man was near his end and said something of great import to his students. He said “My life and teaching is pertinent to me. After I am gone my teaching is gone as well. What is left is your association with me and how that effects teaching that is pertinent to you.” Would you not agree that there is at least some of that dynamic in Jesus relation to the Apostles? And certainly to Paul?

WE are not the judge, I would hazzard, of how God relates to souls, or even what in the Mind of God constitutes the Church beyond our human understanding of it, even aided by what we might, correctly or not, call “divine guidance.” I blew up on here a while back about this salvation issue because I feel it is the hight of arrogance for us to userp actual Divine Prerogative in the matter of saying for our own peronal satisfaction who lives and who dies in the Eye of God. I would further hazzard that we haven’t a clue as to His actual dynamic of Mercy and Love. Does anyone on here sincerely feel that God would come to consult them as to the disposition of a soul based on their aquired theological knowledge??? Or, would you want to have your soul in the merciful hands of the quoters on here???

 

[CentralFLJames]

Nice Vocabulary.

Was I not specific enough? I said clearly that through a common belief in the Trinity, and the Slavic Actions of Christ the Redeemer and a common Baptism of Water and Spirit, that all Christian denominations ARE CONNECTED to the Catholic Church, and threrfore Salvation is through the Catholic church. You may wish to review what it is that was shared?

Your statement of “belligerent disreard; state of definance” chooses to ignore that the Holy Spirit grants to whom He God the HS chooses, necessary understanding. If said disbelief is welf willed, your point, while highly judgemental may be valid? If however it is the result of teaching and learning in error, and such positions are “pure of heart”, you judge incorrectly, and unjustly.

I am normally in agreement with you PJM but on this one I part company since you are soft peddling the hard truth by wrapping Catholic teaching in a palatable and sugar crust of ecumenical ism. What I objected to was the naked assertion (independent of other conditions and comments you made) of your one liner statement:

The Catholic Church teaches: One need not be a Catholic to be saved!

The Catholic Church does NOT teach this.

The Church teaches that One MUST be joined to the Catholic Church. That is ENTIRELY different than what you said here. There is no one who attains to eternal beatitude who is not joined PERFECTLY to The Catholic Church - Christ’s body. The Church recognizes that there are SOME “elements” of salvation that can be found to exist within these ecclesial communities who have a highly deficient faith and lack the fullness of truth and the sacraments as well as lack the inner disposition to obedience to God’s appointed leaders - itself not a marker for contrition and humility. She opens the door to the hope for salvation and the perfection of “some” of those who manage to retain their original baptismal grace without the sacraments of repentance and eucharist - but she does not in anyway promote it as an equal or even close proximate substitute to The Catholic Church. Your statement reads like a new Protestant sola or a new salvation slogan: “One need not be a Catholic to be saved”. This is only true in exceptional and presumable RARE and NON-NORMATIVE case. It is NOT a general universal truth. As you project it you are promoting it as a universal dogma and that is NOT Catholic teaching. PERIOD.

Your Statement #2:

Baloney. Do not equate your re-expression of church teaching to a roll up to single one liner teaching to be Church Teaching. That is YOUR teaching not the Church teaching. One must read the entire teaching in the context it is given - do not summarize it as you have done to give the false impression that one church is just as good as any other church. That is HERESY.

My friend YOU are falling into the Protestant error of trying to come up with easy one liner salvation slogans to give a general permission and relief from the necessity to be in the Catholic Church. This is a false teaching. The Church simply acknowledges that God is not bound to the sacraments and can in the EXCEPTIONAL case elect at His own discretion to join others to His One Church by discerning those who are sincerely invincible ignorant and not in belligerent rebellion against HIS authority viz His Church leaders. It is my opinion as it is many other theologians that FEW are truly invincibly ignorant and the underlying reasons for disunity are not ignorance but rather convenience and stubborn pride. Irrespective - One MUST be joined to the Catholic Church AND stay in grace to be saved. Without sacramental confession it is almost suicide to remain outside the Catholic Church.

Pandering into an easy believism and conjuring up a general formula that puts God to the test to save those who want to circumvent His appointed earthly authority of his Vicar and His Church is dangerous my friend.

It is not my job to presume that men like Graham’s and Dr. Dobson who worked all their lives to give a different gospel, albeit a gospel with a shared Christian morality, but who promoted disunity are saved. Why would you think to judge their works as evidence of salvation when their works kept millions out of the Catholic Church?

Don’t confuse keeping people out of jail and reducing the crime rate by teaching congeniality, manners and good Christian conduct is the same thing as being regenerate. There are 10’s of millions of polite and law abiding heathens who are polite simply becuase it profits them to do so but who reject God outright and seek primarily their own pleasure over promoting God’s kingdom on earth. Motive matters as does obedience. But what matters most is GRACE and few outside the Catholic Church can keep it without sacramental confession and the salvfic and restorative medicine of Holy Eucharist.

James

 

[PJM]

You know, in all of this, I keep going back to Mark 4:33,34. It seems from that one little fact that there is an immense realm of information and teaching that is not public. If it was me, I would think that maybe the scriptures we have are fine as far as they go, but are incomplete as to what may very well be the actual depths of Jesus’ teaching. I mean, even in ordinary circumstances, having been privy to conversations to and from lectures in my Mentor’s car, there is a HECK of a lot that is fundamentally pertinent to public statements that are not there publicly stated. Some “background” dynamics could in some instances do actual harm. In fact, many teachers and societies reserve the imparting of their actual and deep teaching to a select few who have shown the capacity to recieve and that teaching use in a stable state of mind. I am also reminded of Walt Whitman who said that “I and mine teach not thorugh discourse or argument, but by Presence.” Who, let me ask you, might have had more Presence than Jesus???

I therefore submit that the scriptural basis of teachings regarding not only salvation but all else are partial, and to that degree unreliable. Do you sincerely think that the Apostles had an nth of Jesus Presence? Or do you think that their knowldege was comple or that their understanding was complete? If you think that, may I please refer you to Korzybski’s “structural differential” as a visual model of how information is transmitted.

I would fruther like to add that I was present when a very charismatic and exceptionally learned man was near his end and said something of great import to his students. He said “My life and teaching is pertinent to me. After I am gone my teaching is gone as well. What is left is your association with me and how that effects teaching that is pertinent to you.” Would you not agree that there is at least some of that dynamic in Jesus relation to the Apostles? And certainly to Paul?

WE are not the judge, I would hazzard, of how God relates to souls, or even what in the Mind of God constitutes the Church beyond our human understanding of it, even aided by what we might, correctly or not, call “divine guidance.” I blew up on here a while back about this salvation issue because I feel it is the hight of arrogance for us to userp actual Divine Prerogative in the matter of saying for our own peronal satisfaction who lives and who dies in the Eye of God. I would further hazzard that we haven’t a clue as to His actual dynamic of Mercy and Love. Does anyone on here sincerely feel that God would come to consult them as to the disposition of a soul based on their aquired theological knowledge??? Or, would you want to have your soul in the merciful hands of the quoters on here???

Seems to me that the singular truth had to be expressed so as to enable it to be passed on to furture generations. [Jn. 16:12-15]

The truth however is not easily found in “a word” in a verse, or even in one of the books of the bible. The truth is found in the context of understanding the continuinity of message.

Indeed the bible it self proclaims your truth that not everything one needs to know is contained between the covers of the bible.

John 21: 25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth; but you seem to be leaning to a position that “The Truth” cannot be had, cannot be proven, and indeed might be some sort of Hoax?

This position seems to deny God His right and his Will of informing with the TRUTH, whomever He so chooses. What may not be possible for humainty on our own is certainly not impossible for God.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, very insitefull.

But if one has the understanding that they already possess the truth, what then is their motivation to seek our truth? And yes I agree “our truth is THE TRUTH!”

Love and prayers,

This is the beauty of truth. A false doctrine that contains “some” elements of truth will ALWAYS fail to full satisfy and leave us restless. Even a whole cloth truth imperfectly worn will ALWAYS fail to satisfy (e.g. poorly catechized or lapsed Catholics). That THIRST and restlessness stirs the spirit to bring one to the truth.

God has a hugely vested interest in all His creatures and a lot of grace invested. We can be confident that anyone who thirsts and wants to be satisfied WILL be delivered to The Truth eventually. The Law is the handmaid to Grace. The Law brings us to Christ through our common imperfections - we trip and fall and get tired of it and want to get out of that misery. Thus guilt is heaven’s hound and the person not in grace or a person not at their full potential will ache for it all the more. Sin whithers us and brings us to our knees - a perfect remedy to the prime vice of pride - begging God for mercy. That is what brings us to the truth - humility. What does NOT bring us to God is a false complacany that one’s sins are covered over no matter what we do since God could never send anyone to hell. But this is an intoxicating elixir of a scrupulous man who sought to dull the aches of the heart and to quite the tell tale murmurs of guilt and pain.

Thus the best practical medicine to get those who are alienated from the true faith back into full grace and healing is to try to appeal to reason before they suffer the whithering effects of sin or get too complacent in a false faith. But this is very labor intensive and does nor produce much yield for the effort. The deceived mind too quickly overcomes the heart’s calling. It is God’s hound from heaven, that is guilt, who will find those who want to be found when they get so far off the path and suffer the whithering effects of sin that they become open to The Full Truth and the restorative grace of God.

At this point in history there are many many souls at risk. Under the hood Protestantism leads to Rationalism, Transcendentalism, and therefore towards pantheism, atheism, nihilism. Protestantism has stratified itself like a small intestine feeding a large intestine from top to bottom beginning with Anglican Catholics, High Anglicans, Low Anglicans to Presbyterians and down to Baptist and Evangelicals and the me-and-my-bible believers etc. Reason and any remaining elements of Catholics teachings are being stripped away as one falls downward into the belly of the beast. The natural human gravity is to degrade to the next adjacent level down in succession (down worry - I won’t carry the analogy all the way down to its logical digestive conclusion which we call “atheism” but might smell like something else). So VERY few humans comfortable at level seek to climb up toward the higher teachings to escape to Catholicism (outside the reach of the claws of of the creature). Most will slide progressively down under the gravity of sin toward atheism and despair.

So it is very inefficient to try to coax a few here and there into the Catholic Church. What we really need is a radical universal change. For that we need God’s supernatural help to slay this beast once and for all. I expect something is in the near works…

In the mean time all we Catholics can do is pray, practice our faith and set good examples and try to convince those who trust and respect us…

James

 

[Detales]

PJM “…our truth is THE TRUTH!” Compared to what? Your thinking it is so?

"John 21: 25 “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” Yes, of course. Yet another support of my contention.

“I hope I’m not putting words in your mouth; but you seem to be leaning to a position that “The Truth” cannot be had, cannot be proven, and indeed might be some sort of Hoax?”~PJM

Thanks for your concern, but you cannot put words in my mouth, only misinterpret them or understand them. We are not proceeding from the same premises, so the likeyhood is that, either not being clear on–or dismissing my premises, you misunderstand. Remember, I am quite clear on the Catholic positions stated on here having for so long being a zealous proselytizer for the faith. It seems that the situation is not mutual in terms of you understanding mine. If memory serves you have no truck with my standpoint, nor wish to.

“Hoax” with an “H?” As in “Theo-tricks?” Though it’s been said “If you want to make God laugh–make plans” I don’t think that there is any other hoax that what we perpetrate on ourselves by means of a vast and encompassing ignorance. This ignorance, IMHO, is very often supported by unexamined pious faith.

This position seems to deny God His right and his Will of informing with the TRUTH, whomever He so chooses. What may not be possible for humainty on our own is certainly not impossible for God.

One of our differing premises, PJM, is that you maintain an anthropomorphic interpretation of God. You appear, to me, to consider the relationship of God to Creation similarly to a model rail roader and his train set. I remember my religion class with Fr. Brainard, where he just looked at us incredulously and said “You actually believe that God is up there tossing out little flowers of sainthood you might be lucky to catch! NO!! You have to work!” (Loved that man!) I’m just saying that most religionists tend to plow in the wrong field. Reading much on here this in my opinion is clearly so. God, to put it symbolically, is at right angles to, yet inclusive of, most of the considerations on here. Maybe “considerations” is the wrong word, as it means “with the stars.” Such “thinking” as is on here for the most parts seems to be rather earth-bound. (Yes, I know I used lower case “e”) As for what’s possible for Man vs. God, isn’t that a truism?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thanks (name removed by moderator) - I benefited from this historical survey. I note from the section on Lumen Gentium the important observation that The Church itself is a the embodiment of a Sacrament.

I think Protestants could get a better appreciation for Catholic teaching here by coming to realize that if The Catholic Church were to be “suddenly raptured away” there would be NO means for those left behind in other faiths to have a door into grace without the earthly presence of the Catholic Church.

Bottom Line - Protestants can protest all they want but they can not seek to undo or remove the Catholic Church without losing their SOLE means of salvation.

Most non-Catholics just do not “get it” - The Catholic Church IS the ONE mystical Body of Christ - a physical continuation of the Incarnation on earth. No Church - No Incarnation - No Salvation.

James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Golfjack,

Do I detect a note of bitterness in this “…and never will…” phrase?

I believe, but I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches and never will. Does that statement send me to hell? I was a Catholic for 37 years and happy to be out of that churchy system. Peace, Golfjack

While 37 years represents a significant investment of time in an absolute sense. It may be that some have been ‘marching in place’ for ‘x’ number of years as opposed to going forward. I do not know you and just offer this as a general comment in response for your identifying how long you were in the Catholic Church.

It appears you believe in Christ. Is this so?

If, yes, then this would be the same Christ Who founded His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) on Peter. While you think you are able to link directly with God, this is not the arrangement that God has established - He established His Church from where we get the Sacraments, learn about His Word and can pray directly in His Presence in a special way through the Most Holy Eucharist. No one else has what the Catholic Church has - and to distance yourself from God’s Love through His Chruch is, IMHO, putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage when it comes time to meet The Judge.

So, tell me, did you join another religion and if so, how does it differ from the Catholic Church (besides them saying that outside of the __________ church there is no salvation)?

God bless,

 

[golfjack]

This thread is one of the most confusing I have ever been involved in. Some put more importance on fancy words and certain legal discussions than actually wanting to know how people can be saved. Again, it is so simple if we follow the Word of God in all things… Some, have provided different views from past people and popes, but have not gotten into the meat of the Word.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Matariel]

…I think at least some (if not more) people just can’t be bothered.

Too busy to search for the Truth…?!

You’re kidding, right?

Searching for the Truth of life is something that every sane person is capable of.