Outside the Church there is no salvation

[PJM]

=jean8;5350930]luke,
Judging other christians is not to be done.
Mt.7:1-5 reads "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2. For the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use , it will be measured to you…
3. Why do you look for the speak of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4. How can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speak out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5. “You hypocrite,
first take the plank out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speack form your brothes eye.”
There are other passages that warn us all about judging. We should pray for others , with love.

God bless,
jean

***That is a lovely thought, but are we really not to judge?

Is not judging and making judgements part of the human condition? A regular occurence?

Did not God give to humanity a mind, an intellect, a freewill and a sould, precisely so that we can judge?

The question should be how are we to judge; not should we judge?***

***Mt. 7: 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.* Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.

21"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Love and prayers,**

 

[Tradycja]

They believe you can ask God directly for forgiveness, and He will forgive you. I believe this also and ask Him, but I also like to receive the sacrament of Reconciliation for a special grace in receiving forgiveness for my sins.

But what they believe is false. The ordinary means which God set up to forgive mortal sin committed after baptism is the sacrament of Penance. Jesus founded ONE Church against which He said the gates of hell will not prevail. Protestants base their beliefs on their interpretation of the Bible, which we wouldn’t even have were it not for the Church. These issues however would be better dealt with in other threads though or by looking at the plethora of materials that Catholic Answers has on these issues.

Also to answer these questions I recommend “The Catholic Dogma: No Salvation Outside the Church” by Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR

It is available online at the following link: en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Catholic_Dogma:_Extra_Ecclesiam_Nullus_Omnino_Salvatur

Also an excellent book written by St. Francis DeSales, “The Catholic Controversy”
It is published by Tan Books or you can read it online here:

catholictradition.org/Classics/controversy-desales.htm

 

[Tradycja]

“…if they don’t believe in everything the church teaches and are so scared to make a mistake, that they feel they are going to hell…” are you saying that is Catholic dogma?

You must look to the distinction between material heresy (i.e. the person holds a heretical belief but are not aware of it) and formal heresy (the person knows it is heretical but holds it anyway). newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_III

If someone is within the Catholic Church and mistakenly believes something which they think is Catholic teaching or doesn’t believe a portion of Catholic teaching they are not aware of, they are only materially in heresy, therefore they will not be held responsible.

 

[lookaround]

Well I deny them all! I am sick of fighting with catholics and their dogmatic religion. No matter what I say or do here i am in trouble someone is right there to jump down my throat, i dont know how you can win anyone to the lord with the additudes you people have, you fight with each other and with guests and with people trying to make a statement. i find none of you are of one spirit you are all differnt, all seperate spirits one say’s one thing the other say’s the other how do you expect me or anyone to learn from mixed up people?

I understand what you mean.
One of the hindrances to my Catholic faith is the average Catholic. Jesus tells us that we will know his disciples by their fruits. Too many times I have seen more faith and love for God among Protestants then Catholics.
All but one of my Catholic friend do not attend Mass and everyone of my Protestant friends attend their Church, and when they leave on Sunday they still care about God.
I know this can’t be 100% true for everyone, but this is what God has shown me.

 

[PJM]

=Tradycja;5361095]You must look to the distinction between material heresy (i.e. the person holds a heretical belief but are not aware of it) and formal heresy (the person knows it is heretical but holds it anyway). newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_III

If someone is within the Catholic Church and mistakenly believes something which they think is Catholic teaching or doesn’t believe a portion of Catholic teaching they are not aware of, they are only materially in heresy, therefore they will not be held responsible.

***This statement as far as it goes is well articulated and correct; however one should note and be aware that “opportunity to know” will be judged by God as knowing. That friends is Divine Justice.:***thumbsup:

 

[dcastlen50]

(Edited)

Well, you should be in my parish; we’d make a pentacostal blush.
Are you in any Catholic bible studies?
Are you in any Catholic clubs?
I just left the Baptist reliogen, I am in love with my new faith and “yes” there are a lot of cafeteria catholics that shame me. But time may bring them to God and there is no better place than the true church, the Catholic Church.

Don’t forget the parrable of the wheat and the weeds.

 

[PJM]

=dcastlen50;5361183]Well, you should be in my parish; we’d make a pentacostal blush.
Are you in any Catholic bible studies?
Are you in any Catholic clubs?
I just left the Baptist reliogen, I am in love with my new faith and “yes” there are a lot of cafeteria catholics that shame me. But time may bring them to God and there is no better place than the true church, the Catholic Church.

Don’t forget the parrable of the wheat and the weeds.

***Beautiffuly said

Let us not forget that their is nothing more personal than ones own Faith, and within ones Faith, ones personal Salvation.

The Only bible most folks will read [especially Catholics] is how you and I lead our lives, live our Faith, and thereby share it ***

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Nancy, you are so right. Read the first pages of the first chapter of the Catechism. Now, once you find him you want to be all the more closer, don’t you? Jesus, our Lord and savior gave us Himself in communion and the sacraments. You can be even closer. Don’t give up this chance, Nancy. You can not be a lone ranger and be a Christian and there is no better place than the communion of saints at the Mass. Come on aboard.

I’ll come aboard when the priest in my church returns my call and cares enough about his parisheners enough to help them when they need help. However I have been to church up to a few weeks ago. Yes I missed 2 times and the long ranger will strike again this week to.

 

[dcastlen50]

(Edited)

Nancy, your concern that a man is not virtuous and he is a leader of God’s church is understood but it is not logical.:sad_bye: All the apostles but one left Jesus. Peter the first leader, committed a terrible sin. I think he, Peter, missed a great opportunity to share the gospel when he argued with the girl who accused him of being “one of them.” Paul tells us there will be bad leaders in his epistles. Do not let bad priest and bad people steel this oppotunity from you. Come to Jesus. :byzsoc: I know you want to be close to Him; He is calling you. His church with all its bad priest and poor sinners is full of Grace and wonderful people who are saints. You will be closer to God than you ever thought posssible. God bless you Nancy. By the way, if you join the church you can help solve the problem that you are witnessing in the Church. Come home!!!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

***This statement as far as it goes is well articulated and correct; however one should note and be aware that “opportunity to know” will be judged by God as knowing. That friends is Divine Justice.:***thumbsup:

Now i just went that site about heresy, and it said that if someone does not adhear to the churches beliefs as christian, then it could be a heresy. Now I asked someone a while ago about weather or not there are christians outside the church and he said Yes. So if you are a christian and dont sgree with all the beliefs how can you not be a christain? if other church’s outside that believe in Jesus dont do the same as the catholic church does? Good question Did I confuse you? Nancy

 

[golfjack]

1 John 4:4, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Sadly, many Christians don’tt knoww they are born of God, and that they have received Eternal Life ( the life and nature of God). They think Eternal Life is something they are going to have when they get to heaven. Many think they have simply received forgiveness of sins.

If we have just been taught that our sins are forgiven and that we will remain justified only if we walk carefully before God, and we have never been taught that the nature and substance of God is within our spirits, then sin and Satan will continue to reign over us.

But when we know that the man on the inside, the real man, has been born again and is a new self in Christ Jesus, then we will rule and reign over Satan.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[PJM]

(Edited)***
My dear friend in Christ,

It seems to me to be opportune and very convenient to blame others for our own lack of faith, lack of practice of our faith, and lack of knowledge of out faith.

I have never met a good pastor who works less than 60 hours each and every week, and many work 80 hours or more.Yes their are some bad pastors, BUT darn few in relation to the good one, and ones trying to be good.

God gave each of us a mind, intellect and freewill, along with our souls to enable us to take charge of our own spiritual lives. Do we need help and guidance? Darn right we do,* and God knowing that gives us HIS Sacraments, especially Himself in Holy Communion, and known forgiveness of our sins, in the Sacrament of Confession.

If we don’t take advantage of the graces available to us we can blame anyone we want to, but God is NOT going to “buy your feeble excuses.” Ability to know will be judged by God as already knowing,

So friend, don’t pass the buck; take charge of your own spiritual formation **

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

1 John 4:4, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Sadly, many Christians don’tt knoww they are born of God, and that they have received Eternal Life ( the life and nature of God). They think Eternal Life is something they are going to have when they get to heaven. Many think they have simply received forgiveness of sins.

If we have just been taught that our sins are forgiven and that we will remain justified only if we walk carefully before God, and we have never been taught that the nature and substance of God is within our spirits, then sin and Satan will continue to reign over us.

But when we know that the man on the inside, the real man, has been born again and is a new self in Christ Jesus, then we will rule and reign over Satan.

 Peace,   Golfjack

HI Gulfjack, What you say is true but there are o many church out there it could make your head spin and they all confess to be the right church I came back to the catholic curch because they are the same as when i was a tough brat at the catholic school. Only they have changed alot of their laws and cannons, songs, etc. It is hard to keep up with it all, just when i think I know something someone comes along and tells me I am wrong. That is when i get all bent out of shape and get upset. I hate to feel dumb and i have felt this alot. Protestant church teaches preaches and are alot more loving and patient with each other. Man, they even grab you, and kiss you when they see you. I think catholic’s say i love you but are afraid to realy give you a hug and show it, kind of makes you feel warm and welcomed. What the world needs now is love sweet love, and the church.

 

[allenthorn]

Before I began RCIA, I researched that question (no salvation…). My research says the Church’s postion is that salvation is through believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
My wife, of 43 years, and I were originally brought to faith in Jesus Christ as our savior through the Charismatic Renewal in the early '70’s. We then were “non-denom” for 20 years.I entered the True Church on Easter Vigil of 2005.
:yup::yup:She will not discuss converting and will not discuss church teachings. However, she reads the Bible every day , prays everyday, always turns to God for answers to any problem. Always witnesses to nonbelievers, always quick to pray in public for others…If my wife has no salvation(outside the Church) then there is no hope for me, or my children(all Bible thumping believers), or anyone else.
I have been known to be wrong… upon occasion.

 

[sparkletina]

May I share my own story as answer to this question?

Born Catholic (everybody in my family was Catholic in a predominantly Catholic town), Catholic schools, left for evangelical Protestantism 2 decades, revertee. Being young when I left, I thought the Church was anachronistic, medieval, run by a bunch of old people (forgive me, Holy Father), I was alienated and looking for solid biblical teaching, exciting sermons, younger “hip” pastors, fellowship, praise music, etc. etc. I bailed out and threw everything over. Then, I started having doubts about Protestant theology, started looking into it on my own, ran around trying to get answers from various Protestant pastors, elders, bible teachers. Their answers only increased my questions and doubts. Now, what they were saying didn’t make sense as to verses in the bible (my Protestant one!). Somewhere along the line of reading 100 Catholic books, it started to dawn on me that the Catholic Church was indeed the Church founded by Christ for our salvation, and could not be what the Reformers said it was a mere 500 years ago in an abrupt rupture with tradition and biblical teaching. There were many aha! moments, and I found out I was wrong about many many things. But at some point, I knew beyond a doubt I had to return to the Catholic Church, even though I did not really want to because I would lose everything I had for 20 yrs-- friends, fellowship, intimate churches where you knew everybody, a multitude of bible studies, a whole network of security. My whole world was Protestant! I was in anguish, scared and there were many tears. I was afraid of what people would think. But it was God’s idea, not mine, and in my heart I knew this without a doubt. So, if at that point, I knew without question that the Catholic Church was the One True Church founded by Christ (which I did) and if I had refused to enter it because of purely natural (and possibly selfish reasons) then yeah, my salvation would have been in peril. Why did God specifically want ME back? I do not know; it is a great mystery to me, for I have nothing great to offer Him. I am just an ordinary housewife. Having said that, I don’t think God holds you accountable for what you don’t know (please correct me if wrong). In a multicultural society, pulling everyone this way and that, sometimes it is difficult for people to find the truth. But God is a loving Father, and in His great mercy, he can bring to salvation those who honestly seek Him with a sincere heart. And that includes all my Protestant brethren who really don’t know what the Catholic Church really teaches, or who she is. All they know is what their pastors have told them, and they sincerely think they are right and we are wrong. That’s what I thought for a long time myself. I mean, they are not the ones who started the Reformation, but the sad result of it. Well, these are just my thoughts, anyway.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Before I began RCIA, I researched that question (no salvation…). My research says the Church’s postion is that salvation is through believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
My wife, of 43 years, and I were originally brought to faith in Jesus Christ as our savior through the Charismatic Renewal in the early '70’s. We then were “non-denom” for 20 years.I entered the True Church on Easter Vigil of 2005.
:yup::yup:She will not discuss converting and will not discuss church teachings. However, she reads the Bible every day , prays everyday, always turns to God for answers to any problem. Always witnesses to nonbelievers, always quick to pray in public for others…If my wife has no salvation(outside the Church) then there is no hope for me, or my children(all Bible thumping believers), or anyone else.
I have been known to be wrong… upon occasion.

That is a real testimony, and very loving i wish you both well and all love from Jesus. God Bless Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hello! Moderator, are you upset? I noticed i’m forever being sent to the same threads i have ben to 4 or5 times what’s up with that? Nancy

 

[Tradycja]

But God is a loving Father, and in His great mercy, he can bring to salvation those who honestly seek Him with a sincere heart.

This is all true, however those people can only be saved by embracing the Catholic faith first.

It is a dogma of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Church. It is a matter of FAITH that we must believe. We may not understand it, but it has been proposed to us by the Church as a *dogma.
*

God gives grace to convert to all, just look at how he poured out his grace on Scott Hahn!
Let us not leave people in their error but preach the Catholic faith to them!

Orestes Brownson deals with the very issue you raise here:
orestesbrownson.com/index.php?id=17
orestesbrownson.com/index.php?id=14
orestesbrownson.com/index.php?id=15
orestesbrownson.com/index.php?id=16

 

[golfjack]

I believe, but I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches and never will. Does that statement send me to hell? I was a Catholic for 37 years and happy to be out of that churchy system.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Tradycja]

I believe, but I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches and never will. Does that statement send me to hell? I was a Catholic for 37 years and happy to be out of that churchy system. Peace, Golfjack

To be saved you must come back to the Catholic Church. *** No one*** can be saved outside of the Catholic Church.

As I said before it is a dogma of the Faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. (That means it must be believed)

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”*** (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)***

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium II:14)

But brother, don’t look at the Church like a prison that you need to be in to be saved, it is an Ark that saves us from perishing in the flood! So jump back on the ark so you can be saved. Everyone outside perishes in the flood!

Perhaps just the fact that you are on these Catholic Forums is God leading you back to his Church.