Outside the Church there is no salvation

[tqualey]

Hi, Anon5216,

I object to murder. I also think it is problematic to try and judge ancient civilizations by our times and standards.

You are assuming that the ancient Hebrews were honest.
Groups always demonize those they want to exterminate, so other than propaganda from the genocidal Hebrews, where’s the evidence against the Canaanites?

I object to humans claiming the right to take life as they see fit and then announcing “God made/let/sanctioned/authorized/instructed/etc. us to do it” - with of course no proof other than their own claims.

The more straightforward read is that I simply don’t trust the nonsense that various ancient people, (or modern for that matter), spout while claiming God as the source.

A previous post identified that you were having trouble with the idea of allowing God to act as God and not forming a committee of his Creatures to discuss what He should do. I do not believe you responded to this observation. Please do so. I really am interested in knowing what it is you want from the OT. Thanks.

God bless

 

[ladybri77]

Would you have felt better about it if the utterly debased Canaanites who had devolved to a subhuman form of existence with human sacrifice and demonic worship and gross abandonment of natural moral law had been directly annihilated by hell fire rather than indirectly through the instrument of Israel?

Do you object to the fact that the Creator reserves for himself the supreme right to give and take life when and how He sees fit or are you just upset that you don’t get a vote in approving any of it?

The more straightforward read of your objections here is that you simply don’t trust God or believe He should have any say in his own Creation without consulting His creatures and developing a consensus or committee action. Did you come out of “Corporate America” by chance?

James

We aren’t completely “ignorant” to what scripture teaches since if we have the Holy Spirit within us, He “guides us into all truth”. God showed me this truth early on, that we can all discern scripture if we have the Holy Spirit living within us and are guided by Him. Also, we can discern that most of what the Catholic church teaches is true since it lines up with the Holy Spirit’s teachings in Holy Scripture. Scripture for the most part is black and white and those of us with the Holy Spirit comprehend it as such.

 

[dcastlen50]

look,
You mentioned that CCC teaches only Catholics are saved.
Question, do you have a scripture to provide from the Bible that teaches this?

Please read Rom.2:11
God loves all that he has called to Himself.
Not all of these believers are Catholics.

God bless,
jean

Jean!!! where does the CCC teach that ONLY Catholics go to heaven!!! I think there was a priest that was excumunicated because he refused to stop teaching that; in fact, I am sure that this is a heresy (Only Catholics go to heaven) I used to know the name.

This reminds me of a Protestant I was having a discussion with who said we Catholics sacrifice Christ over and over again. I told them that the Church does not teach that, that the Church says that time stops and we go back in time to the one and only sacrifice. She said she knows Cathloics who believe that. I told her I know Catholics we believe it is OK to kill the unborn; but that is not Catholic dogma. She refused to believe me. This is the only attitude I dislike in Protestants: their telling us what our dogma is. I can debate our beliefs but I can not debate what we do not believe.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Jean!!! where does the CCC teach that ONLY Catholics go to heaven!!! I think there was a priest that was excumunicated because he refused to stop teaching that; in fact, I am sure that this is a heresy (Only Catholics go to heaven) I used to know the name.

This reminds me of a Protestant I was having a discussion with who said we Catholics sacrifice Christ over and over again. I told them that the Church does not teach that, that the Church says that time stops and we go back in time to the one and only sacrifice. She said she knows Cathloics who believe that. I told her I know Catholics we believe it is OK to kill the unborn; but that is not Catholic dogma. She refused to believe me. This is the only attitude I dislike in Protestants: their telling us what our dogma is. I can debate our beliefs but I can not debate what we do not believe.

HI dcastlen, Welcome to CAF, I hope you find it very uplifting and inspireing. you are right about not just Catholic’s go to heaven, it is for christians who believe in the Lord Jesus and live by the commandments of our Father God. God Bless You Nancy

 

[dcastlen50]

HI dcastlen, Welcome to CAF, I hope you find it very uplifting and inspireing. you are right about not just Catholic’s go to heaven, it is for christians who believe in the Lord Jesus and live by the commandments of our Father God. God Bless You Nancy

Thank you Nancy,
May I suggest a blog on the subject of TOB (Theology of the Body). I see within this (current) blog how sex (the ultimate icon to God) is emerging. I think,having had a short introduction to TOB, that it would be not only insightful but more importantly help us love more. And what is more important than understanding love when we are searching for God; or should I say, God is searching for us.

God is love, but love is not God.

 

[RomanRevert]

HI dcastlen, Welcome to CAF, I hope you find it very uplifting and inspireing. you are right about not just Catholic’s go to heaven, it is for christians who believe in the Lord Jesus and live by the commandments of our Father God. God Bless You Nancy

Hmmm… this is problematic. This seems to reduce the Holy Catholic Church to just another denomination on par with all the sects that refuse to accept the Church’s authority, its Sacraments, and its sacred dogmas. The Church is either who it says she is or she isn’t. Also, that statement rejects the necessity of the Sacraments and the graces that they confer. Remember, sola fide and sola scriptura are heresies that have been condemned by the Church time and time again. It may feel good to say that just because you are a Christian, you will go to heaven, but it is not what the Church teaches.

 

[Tradycja]

It is a dogma of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Extraordinary Magisterium (infallible statements):

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven,” let him be anathema. [Council of Trent: Canon 2 of the Canons on Baptism, 7th Session, Sacrament of Baptism]

“IF ANYONE SHALL SAY THAT BAPTISM IS OPTIONAL, THAT IS, NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION (cf. John 3:5): let him be anathema.” [Council of Trent: Canon 5 of the Canons on Baptism, 7th Session, Sacrament of Baptism]

The faith which God has revealed has not been proposed like a theory of philosophy, to be elaborated upon by human understanding, but as a divine deposit to be faithfully guarded and infallibly declared. Therefore, that sense of sacred dogmas is to be kept forever which Holy Mother Church has once declared, and it must never be deviated from on the specious pretext of a more profound understanding. Let intelligence, and science, and wisdom increase, but only according to the same dogma, the same sense, the same meaning. If anyone shall have said that there may ever be attributed to the doctrines proposed by the Church a sense which is different from the sense which the Church has once understood and now understands: let him be anathema. (I Vatican Council)​

Additionally the “excommunicated priest” that you refer to was Fr. Leonard Feeney. He was not excommunicated for doctrine but for disobedience in not going to Rome when he was summoned.

There are four groups approved in the Catholic Church that hold Fr. Feeney’s position (three of them have websites):

abbey.org/
saintbenedict.com/
sistersofstbenedictcenter.org/index.html

As you can see in this link, they are listed in the Directory page of religious orders in the Diocese of Worcester, MA:

http://www.worcesterdiocese.org/vicar/ReligiousCommunities/tabid/478/Default.aspx

Also note what the Ecclesia Dei commission said about the matter:

The question of the doctrine held by the late Father Leonard Feeney is a complex one. He died in full communion with the Church and many of his former disciples are also now in full communion while some are not. We do not judge it opportune to enter into this question. Msgr. Pell, Ecclesia Dei Commission

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cedsspx2.htm

Here are some helpful links about the matter:

Tower of David Ministry (which refutes James Akin)

geocities.com/adam_todm/index.htm

Also: Catholic Vox: http://catholicvox.blogspot.com

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hmmm… this is problematic. This seems to reduce the Holy Catholic Church to just another denomination on par with all the sects that refuse to accept the Church’s authority, its Sacraments, and its sacred dogmas. The Church is either who it says she is or she isn’t. Also, that statement rejects the necessity of the Sacraments and the graces that they confer. Remember, sola fide and sola scriptura are heresies that have been condemned by the Church time and time again. It may feel good to say that just because you are a Christian, you will go to heaven, but it is not what the Church teaches.

GEE that’s to bad!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Thank you Nancy,
May I suggest a blog on the subject of TOB (Theology of the Body). I see within this (current) blog how sex (the ultimate icon to God) is emerging. I think,having had a short introduction to TOB, that it would be not only insightful but more importantly help us love more. And what is more important than understanding love when we are searching for God; or should I say, God is searching for us.

God is love, but love is not God.

What are you refering to? What does sex have to do with this? You totally lost me.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

What are you refering to? What does sex have to do with this? You totally lost me.

OK I see what you are saying, that was in reference to a question about being a Bastard in the Bible in deut. And that ws the way it came to be explained. Go pick apples of a tree and stop picking on me.

 

[ladybri77]

It is a dogma of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Extraordinary Magisterium (infallible statements):

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven,” let him be anathema. [Council of Trent: Canon 2 of the Canons on Baptism, 7th Session, Sacrament of Baptism]

“IF ANYONE SHALL SAY THAT BAPTISM IS OPTIONAL, THAT IS, NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION (cf. John 3:5): let him be anathema.” [Council of Trent: Canon 5 of the Canons on Baptism, 7th Session, Sacrament of Baptism]

The faith which God has revealed has not been proposed like a theory of philosophy, to be elaborated upon by human understanding, but as a divine deposit to be faithfully guarded and infallibly declared. Therefore, that sense of sacred dogmas is to be kept forever which Holy Mother Church has once declared, and it must never be deviated from on the specious pretext of a more profound understanding. Let intelligence, and science, and wisdom increase, but only according to the same dogma, the same sense, the same meaning. If anyone shall have said that there may ever be attributed to the doctrines proposed by the Church a sense which is different from the sense which the Church has once understood and now understands: let him be anathema. (I Vatican Council)​

Hmmm…it seems that these doctrinal statements are dated a “very” long time ago and in the first Vatican Council no less. I thought we were under the second Vatican Council now. Does the second Vatican Council ascribe to this very long ago teaching? Yes, baptism IS necessary…

 

[MacGregor1991]

Erm… Nancy? I somehow get the feeling you got those intstructions from demonbuster.com which i personally don’t find that… credible. According to them demons are attracted by nearly everything, including but not limited to various decourative items, candles and playing cards. Also according to my observations there are people conceived legitimately who are worse sinners then me, despite me having here in my room a few candles, incense (did i write that correctly?) sticks, and apparently one of the most horrible things at all: an owl-plushie! (ok i have to admit that one was a present from a pagan friend of mine and does have a pagan blessing on it, but i never had any bad experiences with it)

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

(Edited)

I just have to say something, There is salvation out side the Catholic church and i know there are people who wont agree but I realy could care less. the truth is God is everywhere and he lives in people’s hearts not in a building. And that is how I realy feel. Love of Christ Nancy Now I feel like a real Christian.

 

[Tradycja]

Hmmm…it seems that these doctrinal statements are dated a “very” long time ago and in the first Vatican Council no less. I thought we were under the second Vatican Council now. Does the second Vatican Council ascribe to this very long ago teaching? Yes, baptism IS necessary…

Dogmas do not change over time. To say that they do is the modernist heresy:

“The doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the Apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously.” [Oath against Modernism: Sacrorum Antistitum, September 1, 1910.]

An Ecumenical Council cannot change the faith that has been believed always and everywhere and which has been previously defined in other Ecumenical Councils and De Fide statements of the Pope. To say the Church can change its dogmas is heresy.

Vatican II did not change the dogma “No Salvation Outside the Church”:
Just read these documents:

marycoredemptrix.com/CenterReview/3_2005_Vatican2.pdf
catholicism.org/downloads/FrHarrison_Implicit-Faith.pdf

Fr. Harrison by the way writes for “This Rock” Magazine and is a professor at the Pontifical University of Puerto Rico. He is a member of the Oblates of Wisdom (approved in the Diocese of St. Louis) rtforum.org/os/index.html

Let me just state that I accept Pope Benedict XVI as Pope of Rome, I accept the Novus Ordo Mass as valid, as well as Vatican II as an Ecumenical Council.

 

[Detales]

“that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ?”~OP

If so, that is not the Roman Church as we unfortunately know it today. For whatever good it might have done as an organization, it is riddled with primitive rubbish founded on a false notion of separation from God. It is materialistic in this regard, postualting a dichotomy that is impossible. That dichotomy is acceptable ony because of the adversarial assumptions inherent in most languages, and an ignorance on the part of the founders of the Church as to the import of the Identitiy statements attributed to Jesus and others. “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is ignorant semantic rubbish. Can God be separate from God? Impossible. You can only entertain illusory thoughts that this is so by falling for the deceptions of the Deceiver.

 

[dcastlen50]

Hmmm… this is problematic. This seems to reduce the Holy Catholic Church to just another denomination on par with all the sects that refuse to accept the Church’s authority, its Sacraments, and its sacred dogmas. The Church is either who it says she is or she isn’t. Also, that statement rejects the necessity of the Sacraments and the graces that they confer. Remember, sola fide and sola scriptura are heresies that have been condemned by the Church time and time again. It may feel good to say that just because you are a Christian, you will go to heaven, but it is not what the Church teaches.

God bless you Roman, but a clear reading of the Catechism or this blog clearly says that IF IF IF one knows that Catholic Church is the source of salvation and DOEs not (shall we say) “join” Her they are in mortal sin and headed for watching the Cubs play forever.

 

[Tradycja]

I just have to say something, There is salvation out side the Catholic church and i know there are people who wont agree but I realy could care less.

Well the Vicars of Christ as well as the dogmas of the Faith disagree with you. (See my above post). To deny one dogma of the faith is to deny them all.

 

[ladybri77]

Dogmas do not change over time. To say that they do is the modernist heresy:

“The doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the Apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously.” [Oath against Modernism: Sacrorum Antistitum, September 1, 1910.]

An Ecumenical Council cannot change the faith that has been believed always and everywhere and which has been previously defined in other Ecumenical Councils and De Fide statements of the Pope. To say the Church can change its dogmas is heresy.

Vatican II did not change the dogma “No Salvation Outside the Church”:
Just read these documents:

marycoredemptrix.com/CenterReview/3_2005_Vatican2.pdf
catholicism.org/downloads/FrHarrison_Implicit-Faith.pdf

Fr. Harrison by the way writes for “This Rock” Magazine and is a professor at the Pontifical University of Puerto Rico. He is a member of the Oblates of Wisdom (approved in the Diocese of St. Louis) rtforum.org/os/index.html

Let me just state that I accept Pope Benedict XVI as Pope of Rome, I accept the Novus Ordo Mass as valid, as well as Vatican II as an Ecumenical Council.

Thank you for the various links, I was wondering about that. Will read later.

I just see so much “evidence” of the Holy Spirit in my Prostestant friends, that it is quite clear. They are so “full” of love for God. We agree on so many things that only God could point us in way of the Truth in.

I am participating in another thread which concerns a certain type of sin, and we agree also what the Truth is in this matter. If they did not have the Truth or the Holy Spirit or Jesus within them, they could not discern this matter or speak the same words I speak, they could not know the Truth.

Maybe they have not been apprised yet of the graces of the Catholic Church and need to be lead to them so as to understand and possibly want more of it.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Well the Vicars of Christ as well as the dogmas of the Faith disagree with you. (See my above post). To deny one dogma of the faith is to deny them all.

Well I deny them all! I am sick of fighting with catholics and their dogmatic religion. No matter what I say or do here i am in trouble someone is right there to jump down my throat, i dont know how you can win anyone to the lord with the additudes you people have, you fight with each other and with guests and with people trying to make a statement. i find none of you are of one spirit you are all differnt, all seperate spirits one say’s one thing the other say’s the other how do you expect me or anyone to learn from mixed up people?

 

[RomanRevert]

Hmmm…it seems that these doctrinal statements are dated a “very” long time ago and in the first Vatican Council no less. I thought we were under the second Vatican Council now. Does the second Vatican Council ascribe to this very long ago teaching? Yes, baptism IS necessary…

This is the problem with this whole perfidious “Spirit of Vatican II” rubbish. The documents of the Second Vatican Council were NOT a rupture with the past. In fact, you must view them through the lens of Sacred Tradition in order to fully understand them. They CANNOT stand on their own. Many a Catholic has made the terrible mistake of reading those documents as if they were defining some new Church - as if they were a break with the past. This is what the Holy Father refers to as the “hermeneutic of rupture” which is absolutely wrong. Since they were written so ambiguously, you can take any number of meanings away from them unless you view them as a continuity of past Church teaching. Think about it … the Church cannot break with truth. What was sacred in the past, what was true in the past, what was holy in the past, is still sacred, holy, and true now. The Church has been here for 2000 years. Vatican II is only 40 years old. You cannot discard 1900 years of teaching and all of the previous Councils… moreover, there can be no conflict between Vatican II and the previous Councils. It is the hermeneutic of continuity to which we should aspire.