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CentralFLJames
Guest
Why play these games?
Peter’s office is where the Catholic pope is and his Church are all those in communion with Christ’s vicar and bishops.
Are you looking for a judicial/legalize definition?
James
- Status
Peter’s office is where the Catholic pope is and his Church are all those in communion with Christ’s vicar and bishops.
Are you looking for a judicial/legalize definition?
James
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jean8
Guest
james,
God shows no favortism. he loves all who have come to him. Rom.2:11
Rev.3:20 reads, “Here I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
Keep the door to your heart open. The Lord will always be with you.
God bless,
jean
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You are right! God shows no favoritism and that is why the Catholic Church is open to all people (universal) and why HE calls all to Him to enter into His Body - The Catholic Church. Baptism opens the gate into the Church and you must enter in and stay within till you are delivered to Heaven. Only the apostolic Church has Eucharist where you can “come in and eat with him and he with me” - just as you say. So what are you waiting for?james,
God shows no favortism. he loves all who have come to him. Rom.2:11
Rev.3:20 reads, “Here I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
Keep the door to your heart open. The Lord will always be with you.
God bless,
jean
Don’t miss the boat…
James
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Detales
Guest
No, Central, no game, and no legal definition. But really, when you consider Peter, or the Pope, or anything, where they? Call it a game if you like, but it is a very serious and potentially very productive question. Everyone starts by debasing it, scoffing one way or another at it, in its many forms. But it can be followed to a very productive end by a small percentage of those who persist.
But, it is not part of this thread, really, so I will desist for that reason only. But think about it: “Where is Peter?” I will bet that you might never come an actual, usable answer in many years. Or maybe you could be lucky. There is such a thing as Grace.
But, it is not part of this thread, really, so I will desist for that reason only. But think about it: “Where is Peter?” I will bet that you might never come an actual, usable answer in many years. Or maybe you could be lucky. There is such a thing as Grace.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
A potentially very productive question?
Can be followed to a very productive end by a small percentage of those who persist?
Maybe you could be lucky?
Sounds like you have played this game before.
Go play spin-the-bottle (or spin the pope) someplace else please.
James
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Detales
Guest
Precisely the answer that leads to the Pearl of great price?
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PJM
Guest
Well done friend! Thank you.
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Detales
Guest
PJM and Central, this raises a big concern for me. Now that the necessities have been defined by Central, do we not have an urgent obligation? Should we not drop everything and go find the other peoples in the galaxy and beyond who have not heard of Jesus? Should we not at least send some sort of radio clarification so that the potiential listeners of the multitude of evangelical broadcast media get their stories straight? I am at odds as to how to deal with this issue of all the billions of souls out there who do not know of the right teaching. How do we deal with this???
BD
BD
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John_one_one
Guest
This game as you call it was not founded by Detales.A potentially very productive question?
Can be followed to a very productive end by a small percentage of those who persist?
Maybe you could be lucky?
Sounds like you have played this game before.
Go play spin-the-bottle (or spin the pope) someplace else please.
James
We often justify our conclusions about God or His will by emphasizing scriptures that agree with our conclusions and ignoring scriptures that disagree with our conclusions. We even conclude that we can justify horrible acts if those horrible acts support “good” beliefs. Or just as foolish, long drawn out recipes that claim guaranteed salvation. Look at the examples of Gods interaction in the bible, a burning bush, a bronze serpent, stone that gives water and bread from heaven. Look at Job or the flees that Gideon laid out. The people that heard the word and believed, the woman that touch Jesus hem and was healed the list is long indeed and has one conclusion.
Psalm 91:1
He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”
Isaiah 55:6
Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “ For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
12 “ For you shall go out with joy,
And be led out with peace;
The mountains and the hills
Shall break forth into singing before you,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
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Detales
Guest
Beautiful qotes. Thank you. Neverthelss, so far the point has been missed.
Bye for now.
Bye for now.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Yes the obligation is primal to the apostolic Church and most urgent. The world has gone the way of secularism, universalism and apokatastasis - thinking that all get saved or substantially all get saved if one simply believes in God.
The Church has taught for 2,000 years the necessity for being in the Catholic Church by formal membership or by implicit desire. It thought it had in fact achieved the promulgation of the message until the New World was discovered and the Church had to reassess its mission and began immediately sending forth missionaries to various places in the Americas. BTW, St. Augustine in what is now Florida was founded on September 8, 1565 by Pedro Menéndez de Avilés. Menéndez had first sighted land on August 28, the feast day of Augustine of Hippo; hence it’s name. This settlement was Catholic long before America was even “America”. So Catholics started spreading Catholicism as “the only church” by piggybacking on the expansion of American colonies and to the indigenous peoples both in South America and North America (both in what is now Canada and the United States).
The “word has been out” about the necessity to be Catholic for 2,000 years. In the east it has been violence and corrupt Muslims who have kept the truth away from their peoples - these will be given much mercy. The problem in the west though is much differnt. It is not for lack of knowledge but for lack of convictive belief or outright rejection according to the heretical error of Protestantism - a festering sore which has taught a false and easy-believism who’s false complacency for 500 years. It is staggering to think of the many millions of Protestant souls that could be lost as well as in those numbers who barely escaped to purgatory but have no one but Catholics to pray for their release until the end of time.
Personally I’d rather see the Church go back to strong language and severe warnings rather than the current experimental approach of soft ecumenicalism. I really don’t think that approach is going to get people out of their comfort zones. If the Fatima message was not shocking enough (widely known in the west) then its going to take a lot of prayer and grace to get people to wake up.
How many times must Catholics keep saying it - “One MUST be in the Catholic Church and practicing the faith to have confidence of salvation.” Everyone else is literally gambling with their eternity against monumental odds of failing.
The very Protestant notion of “just believing one is saved” is normally in and of itself alone a grave presumption against God’s Mercy. Add in rejection of Christ’s earthly appointed authority and the sins against purity common in this secular hedonistic age and its really putting God to the Test to even dare to remain Protestant.
James
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Detales
Guest
Awesome answer, James. “Doot toot.”
Bindar Dundat, FZPC
Bindar Dundat, FZPC
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jean8
Guest
lookaround,
May I suggest that you ‘look’ in the Bible about salvation.
First, you are judging others who love the Lord. We are told in the Bible not to judge others. Mt.7;2-5
The Bible in the inspired word of God. It was not given by the church, but to the church.
See 2Tim.3:16
I noticed your statments are from the CCC I have a Lutheran Catechism, I would not use it when I wanted to prove a point of scripture concerning salvation or any topic. I would first go to the author of life. The word of God.
We are commanded by Christ himself, to love one another.
See if you can find the scripture for this command. 
God bless,
jean
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jean8
Guest
james,A potentially very productive question?
Can be followed to a very productive end by a small percentage of those who persist?
Maybe you could be lucky?
Sounds like you have played this game before.
Go play spin-the-bottle (or spin the pope) someplace else please.
James
Judging others is not a game. It can lead to serious consequences
Mt.7:1-5
Do you really believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for the only Catholic believers? There are a few other churches that believe this also. One is The Oneness Pentecostal Church.
The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses. Please don’t lump yourself with these misguided groups. pray for them.The same guidelines you use on others will be measured unto you, so saith the Lord God.
God bless,
jean
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Detales
Guest
Especially to Davidv
By Thich Nhat Hanh:
"In the United States, I have a close friend named Jim F. When I first met him eight years ago, he was working with the Catholic Peace Fellowship. Last winter, Jim came to visit. I usually wash the dishes after we’ve finished the evening meal, before sitting down and drinking tea with everyone else. One night, Jim asked if he might do the dishes. I said, “Go ahead, but if you wash the dishes you must know the way to wash them.” Jim replied, “Come on, you think I don’t know how to wash the dishes?” I answered, “There are two ways to wash the dishes. The first is to wash the dishes in order to have clean dishes and the second is to wash the dishes to wash the dishes.” Jim was delighted and said, “I choose the second way–to wash the dishes to wash the dishes.” From then on, Jim knew how to wash the dishes. I transferred the “responsibility” to him for an entire week.
“If while washing dishes, we think only of the cup of tea that awaits us, thus hurrying to get the dishes out of the way as if they were a nuisance, then we are not “washing the dishes to wash the dishes.” What’s more, we are not alive during the time we are washing the dishes. In fact, we are completely incapable of realizing the miracle of life while standing at the sink. (underlinde mine) If we can’t wash the dishes, the chances are we won’t be able to drink our tea either. While drinking the cup of tea, we will only be thinking of other things, barely aware of the cup in our hands. Thus we are sucked away into the future and we are incapable of actually living one minute of life.”
By Thich Nhat Hanh:
"In the United States, I have a close friend named Jim F. When I first met him eight years ago, he was working with the Catholic Peace Fellowship. Last winter, Jim came to visit. I usually wash the dishes after we’ve finished the evening meal, before sitting down and drinking tea with everyone else. One night, Jim asked if he might do the dishes. I said, “Go ahead, but if you wash the dishes you must know the way to wash them.” Jim replied, “Come on, you think I don’t know how to wash the dishes?” I answered, “There are two ways to wash the dishes. The first is to wash the dishes in order to have clean dishes and the second is to wash the dishes to wash the dishes.” Jim was delighted and said, “I choose the second way–to wash the dishes to wash the dishes.” From then on, Jim knew how to wash the dishes. I transferred the “responsibility” to him for an entire week.
“If while washing dishes, we think only of the cup of tea that awaits us, thus hurrying to get the dishes out of the way as if they were a nuisance, then we are not “washing the dishes to wash the dishes.” What’s more, we are not alive during the time we are washing the dishes. In fact, we are completely incapable of realizing the miracle of life while standing at the sink. (underlinde mine) If we can’t wash the dishes, the chances are we won’t be able to drink our tea either. While drinking the cup of tea, we will only be thinking of other things, barely aware of the cup in our hands. Thus we are sucked away into the future and we are incapable of actually living one minute of life.”
Code:
Salvation, I think, is not a matter of inside or outside anything. The most subtle aspect of our being the Image and Likeness of God is our state of awareness. The state of awareness we carry will focus our activities into mining the moment for its dependence on God. Though that may be thought of in a narrow sense for those who wish to in striclty Catholic terms, it is yet not strictly a Catholic activity. In fact, nothing done by Catholics in order to "gain salvation" is substantially different, outside of form of worship, from anything anyone else does, except as a variation of the terms of attribution.
I mean this in the sense that if a team of five people were on an adventure, say a fire team, or whatever, and each did their job professionally, and each had occasion to save the loves of the others and did, and willingly and with care for their comrads did all teh duties required of the team, who could tell from those actions what any particular one's religion, or lack of it, was? Can you tell which was Catholic, or Muslim, or Jew or Shintoist or atheist? Both by the rules of love and war, you die for one another because you bleed for one another, not becauseof how you worship a go or don't. If God "sees" love that lays down life for others, I wonder, even in your brand of God story, does God see a difference based on faith?
Because we attribute our similar actions through different faith or non-faith systems is in my opinion irrelevent. In fact, I would hazzard that an atheist doing good for the sake of the outcome of a situation is more "holy" than someone distracted from the moment by pious considerations. But then, my understanding of soul and God have transformed radically from whence I was a pious RC. From this standpoint, there is a lot that the faith leaves unattended.
I suspect that inattention has to do with the ignorance of what happend in Mark 4:33,34, and all of the unknown times and sermons of the Master, not to mention their likely incomplete interpretations by those lesser than He. I also keep remembering Walt Whitman saying "I and mine teach not by discourse or arguament, but by Presence." I would also hazzard that Jesus had a tad more of that than Walt. Be pious and dogmatically "safe." Wash the dishes of your souls so that they will be clean, but I don't think that that's the whole story.
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steve_b
Guest
Jean
I rearranged your post into points. Hope you don’t mind- We can’t run to favorite passages and absolutize THEM to the exclusion of all the passages that give details that must be done ALSO.
2.The bible was written by the Church for the Church. The OT writers were prototypes of the NT Church. The NT writers were ALL Church members that Jesus started on Peter.- Luther broke from the Church of Rome, the chair of Peter, the Church Paul wrote to in the 1st century. Paul said to the Church of Rome.
Since God revealed His invisible qualities, eternal power, divine nature, that’s clearly seen so that men are without excuse, how much MORE will humans be guilty for rejecting His Church which is seen. The faith of Rome has been reported over the known world. Rome HAS the apostolic faith. And Paul says directly, those who divide from her are NOT serving our Lord but their own appetites. Paul says division is evil.
And then he puts a severe consequence to division if they remain divided
- this is why the CCC says those who refuse to enter it or remain in the Church… … therefore, Jean it’s ALL scriptural.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Jean - please don’t be so blatantly hypocritical in your bible naivety and in your judgement of me OK?james,
Judging others is not a game. It can lead to serious consequences
Mt.7:1-5
Do you really believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for the only Catholic believers? There are a few other churches that believe this also. One is The Oneness Pentecostal Church.
The same guidelines you use on others will be measured unto you, so saith the Lord God.
God bless,
jean
Jean, this is the same false argument EVERY heretic uses to justify their false ideology. “Don’t judge me” or “I have my own interpretation of the bible and you must not judge me”. Baloney. EVERY apostle judged heretical teachings, corrected them and judged them as heretics.
Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Christ died on the cross for those who would believe HIS message - NOT Luther’s message - NOT John Calvin’s message - NOT Wesley’s message etc.
If Luther and Calvin and Wesley et-al want to preach a new gospel and not be damned then let them put themselves on the cross, suffer for us and rise again before we listen to one whit of their pandering to the flesh and false doctrinal nonsense. These are not men sent from God - not a single sign or wonder was performed - not one. I most certainly will judge a false gospel - but I will leave it God to condemn their immortal souls.
Catholics, as holders of the true faith and even those who are being newly called to God are definitely also called and commanded to discern between good, evil, right, and wrong, based on what we DO know of the facts and actions of others. How could we possibly be held accountable for the sins of our brothers for not warning them about sins if we were not to judge?
Are we our brothers keeper? YES - and that requires sound judgement and discernment.
Are we our brothers executioner and condemner to hell? No. THAT is God’s job.
Learn the difference between judgement and condemnation. And do stop trying to hide behind the false doctrine of “not judging” just to escape the need to be be accountable to anyone but yourself while thinking you can embrace any error and escape judgement. You play hide and seek with the truth but your guilt will always bring Heaven’s Hound to sniff you out and find you. Accept the truth and reject the falshood - that requires discernment and judgement. If you don’t believe in judgement then you don’t believe in the absolutes of the condemnations of heaven and hell.
There is only one faith and one teaching and one path to salvation. Get on it.
James
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golfjack
Guest
James, there you go again with your ranting.
Peace, Golfjack
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Clearly this person and those promoting his views does not know a single thing about the Catholic faith. I find the whole analogy of washing dishes and duty insulting to Catholics. Catholics (and Orthodox) have the deepest spirituality and saintly attainments on the planet hands down. No true and mature in the faith Catholic believes that going to confession and keeping oneself guilt free is all of it. No one gets to heaven by consequence of being without guilt - there is a thing called sanctifying grace that one must also possess. No one gained heaven through invincible ignorance - only the person who was free of guilt (both personal and original) and who also had a gift of supernatural sanctifying grace. And no one gets that and keeps it without having a relationship with The Trinity in each of His persons. It is not just “Jesus” come in the flesh - but also the Holy Spirit the giver of all truth and God the Father who makes all things new as Creator and just judge. Further, no one gets to heaven as a long ranger outside the flock or the family of God and the Saints. There are no loners in heaven. If one loves Jesus and is in a relationship with Him than one must by necessity also be in a relationship with His Body - The Church Militant (earth), The Church Suffering (purgatory) and The Church Triumph (those in heaven). Being in communion with God means also being in communion with all those who are in communion with God.
Hell is the epoch of the expression of individualism - a family or covey of individuals who all imagined themselves God but for lack any grace and good virtue can love not even themselves - much less the company of their self-aborted brothers and sisters.
The whole story is that there are no oracles outside of the fullness of truth held in the sacred deposit of faith of the Catholic Church. Therefore, listen to the Catholic Church not the maxims of men estranged from her. The latter all think themselves wise but have done nothing to demonstrate that what they say is wise or is anything worth listening to or considering.
James
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lookaround
Guest
Are the Orthodox considered outside of the Church?
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