Outside the Church there is no salvation

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Some say, they believe in church tradition to blend in with scripture. Well, do we have originals of what some early father’s wrote? Or are they copies? If they are copies, how do you know they are not forgeries? And if you are depending on some of these early church writings, I really feel sorry for you. You see, Catholic teaching are wrong from the start. What happened, is your church became legalized.
Code:
     Peace,   Golfjack
Uhmm, Ralphie - don’t you see a wee bit of a problem with this line of reasoning? Do you have a single original Bible Manuscript to confirm that what is in the bible is not a forgery?
Nope you don’t - not a single one. What you have as a bible comes ALL from the Catholic Church and us telling you it is not a forgery and is inspired.

Either way you look at any aspect of Christianity you MUST trust the Catholic Church or if you insist on being paranoid and not trusting the Catholic Church then you can’t trust the bible and you might as well go become a Judaic or some other religion. You shoot yourself in your own foot with a paranoid sort of thinking Ralph…

James
 
I
Some say, they believe in church tradition to blend in with scripture.
As Catholics, we believe in the whole Deposit of Faith, which includes written (Scripture) and oral (Tradition) aspects of Christianity. Unfortunately, Protestants rejected much of the deposit of Faith and took Scripture with them, although they also took some Tradition with them from Catholic Church Councils (Trinity, New Testament Canon, Incarnational doctrines, etc.). So they have a kind of shaky position, considering they arbitrarity accept some parts of extra-scriptural Tradition while rejecting others.
 
Even if you were right, and the Gates of Hell prevailed over Christ’s Church almost as soon as it began, Our Lord commanded us to obey the “Pharisees”, and “do everything they tell you.” (Matt. 23) So you’re out of luck either way. 😉
That’s because they sat in Moses’ Seat. But now we Catholics have Peter’s Seat, something which Protestants lack.
 
Hi, James,

I think you hit this right on the head - calling this entire appraoch a mental disease: paranoid thinking! 👍
Uhmm, Ralphie - don’t you see a wee bit of a problem with this line of reasoning? Do you have a single original Bible Manuscript to confirm that what is in the bible is not a forgery?
Nope you don’t - not a single one. What you have as a bible comes ALL from the Catholic Church and us telling you it is not a forgery and is inspired.

Either way you look at any aspect of Christianity you MUST trust the Catholic Church or if you insist on being paranoid and not trusting the Catholic Church then you can’t trust the bible and you might as well go become a Judaic or some other religion. You shoot yourself in your own foot with a paranoid sort of thinking Ralph…

James
The only real hope Golf has is to wake up before it is too late! :eek:

God bless
 
Thanks Tom! I can’t imagine being in a “church” started by some disgruntled, self-proclaimed knucklehead with an online “divinity” degree! If I weren’t born a Catholic, I KNOW I’d be a convert!

InHim,
Jim
Yeah, I know. Before when I was a Protestant the pastor received an ordination license in the mail after paying dues to some Charismatic Protestant organization. They really don’t believe in the laying on of hands (ordination) they think it’s just symbolic and isn’t really necessary.
 
This makes a lot of sense. Except for this:
In other words, he willfully refuses to take what he knows to heart. Faith, after all, is an act of the will.

Every Priest I know has told me faith is a gift from God.
look,
Jesus said in Jn.14:6 "“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Acts 4;12 reads “Salvation is found in no one else. for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we are saved.”

There are many things that I admire about the Catholic Church. I really don’t believe that you are told by your teachers the Catholic Church is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only way. 🙂 We all worship and love the same Savior .
Why are you so judgmental?

jean…
 
look,
Jesus said in Jn.14:6 "“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Acts 4;12 reads “Salvation is found in no one else. for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we are saved.”

There are many things that I admire about the Catholic Church. I really don’t believe that you are told by your teachers the Catholic Church is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only way. 🙂 We all worship and love the same Savior .
Why are you so judgmental?

jean…
PS.
Your priest is right. Faith is a gift. 😃
 
Yeah, I know. Before when I was a Protestant the pastor received an ordination license in the mail after paying dues to some Charismatic Protestant organization. They really don’t believe in the laying on of hands (ordination) they think it’s just symbolic and isn’t really necessary.
mat,
This is true. it seems anyone can apply for a license to preach? Does anyone know what further qualfications are needed? For a license, that is.
All Pastors should attend a qualified Seminary for at least three or four years. They are doing the Lords work.
The Bible also teaches women are not to be pastors. 1Tim.2;12
Be careful who is teaching .Thankfully, this shoddy requirement is at a minimum

God bless,
jean
 
“The Catholic Church” means all those churches of various Catholic rites collectively under the pasturage of an apostolic bishop who is in full obedience and communion to the Vicar of Christ (the Pope). “Churches” as it is used in the Catechism generally refers to those apostolic Churches which are in schism but have a valid apostolic succession and substantially the same faith and Creed. "Ecclesial Communities or “Faith Communities” refers to those assemblies of peoples (generally Protestant) who may rightfully be called “Christian” by their baptism into the Body of Christ - The Catholic Church. These are “related” to The Catholic Church as seperated brothers. “Churches” who enjoy all 7 of the apostolic sacraments but who are in schism with The Catholic Church have a closer relationship than do “ecclesial communities”. All that said, NONE, whether they are in the formal Catholic Church or in a Church or in an ecclesial community who are in grave/mortal post-baptismal sins are in the Body of Christ and will go to hell if they die impenitent. Protestants, or those who lack valid apostolic succession (i.e. Anglican) and Holy Orders are in very grave danger of eternal damnation without having a sacrament of penance/reconciliation for grave sins committed post baptismally. Those “baptized” non-Catholics who die without grave sins are saved with caveat. The caveat is that anyone who is not in the Formal Catholic Church is invincibly ignorant of the necessity to be in the Catholic Church. Thus the risk of not attaining sanctification/theosis and falling to hell is HIGH for all those who remain outside of the Catholic Church.

Catholics may not judge any soul’s final disposition but we can of course judge behavior so that we may warn others who are not living according to teaching - which imposes an obligation to warn EVERY non-Catholic that they are at high risk of eternal damnation.

James
I don’t think that warning every non-C that they are at risk of eternal damnation is a good way to go about ministering to them. Jesus always approached people OUTSIDE the church with love and patience - he saved the criticism and sharp words for the hypocrites inside the church. I also want to mention that a contrite heart is also believed by the Roman Church to remit sins, even without formal confession, and this would particularly apply to protestants. Sorry it’s taken so long to respond to your post!
 
Yeah, I know. Before when I was a Protestant the pastor received an ordination license in the mail after paying dues to some Charismatic Protestant organization. They really don’t believe in the laying on of hands (ordination) they think it’s just symbolic and isn’t really necessary.
The latest protestant denomination d jour in my town is… ready for this?.. “The Holy Spirit Love Revival” Bring your hippy beads? To open on time they had to confer powers on ‘Joe’ before his online divinity degree was finished. Give me Catholocism or let me fall on my sword… :eek:
 
Hi, Jean8

There is no doubt about Jesus being The Way, The Truth and The Life. You are so right! 🙂 And, I think it would be good to take a look at that in some detail.
look, Jesus said in Jn.14:6 "“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
The Divine Plan for our salvation - established by God from all eternity - consisted of His for us by sending His Son to show us The Way to the Father. From the very first moment of Jesus Christ’s Life, He demonstrated Humility and Love for others. But, the Divine Plan consisted of MORE then ‘just’ Christ dying on the cross! The Divine Plan also involved how Christ wanted us to live our lives - and, that would be within the shelter of His Love and Protection. To have access to His forgiveness in the manner He gave us. To be nourished with His Flesh and Blood since He told us that this is necessary for us to have life within us. The Divine Plan involved us thriving on His Abundant Grace throughout our lives. He accomplished these and other aspects of the Divine Plan by building His Church on Peter.
Acts 4;12 reads “Salvation is found in no one else. for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we are saved.”
How true! 🙂 Your Bible is quite clear on this. God so loved the world that He sent His Son… And, what we are required to do is to look at His entire life (or, at least what we have written down in Scripture) as the model for our lives. On Holy Thursday - the night before He died - He took a basin of water and a towel and began to wash the feet of His Apostles (John 13:1-20) to give the Apostles the example of humility and service. Recall that Peter wanted his head washed, too - and Christ drew the line. It was this same Peter who would flee from the Arrested Christ - and then a few hours later, deny Christ. But all of this was known in advance. There are no surprises for God.

After the Crucifixion, Peter and the other Apostles return. They doubt the women’s account of the Resurrection. They are somewhat strengthened by Christ’s post-Resurrection’s appearances - and one in particular when Christ confirs on men the delegated power of God to forgive sin (John 20:21-23) But, for some reason these guys never really change - all the way up to the Ascension there were some who had doubts. And, then Pentecost happened! The Power of the Holy Spirit - the birthday of the Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) - and these guys were on fire! They were inspired by the Holy Spirit in the way they taught and in the way they formed the Church. This is the Divine Plan - and you can read about it in the first 3 chapters of Acts.
There are many things that I admire about the Catholic Church. I really don’t believe that you are told by your teachers the Catholic Church is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only way. 🙂 We all worship and love the same Savior .
Why are you so judgmental?
So, here is the issue before you: if you believe in Christ - the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and you believe that He has prepared a way for your salvation - and, this way is actually identified in your Bible, then the question becomes, do you want to follow His Divine Plan? Please note, being an admirable group is not what Christ established. Christ established His Chruch (and, that would be the Catholic Church) built on sinful men!

At no time in Scripture did Christ turn to Peter and say, “You guys will later be replaced by Luther and Calvin and Henry VIII… and I will demonstrate division in doctrine and chaos in worship! Multiple churches will spring up because I will change the focus so that things ‘make sense’.” The Catholic Chruch teaches that it is the vehicle established by Christ for each of us to get to heaven. If you believe God established His Catholic Church - and you insist on remaining with a church founded by a man on the traditions of men with a new gospel, then Christ’s Words are quite enough to draw your own conclusion. By rejecting the Church of Christ, you are rejecting the method of salvation establshed by God from all eternity.

God bless
 
There are many things that I admire about the Catholic Church. I really don’t believe that you are told by your teachers the Catholic Church is the only way to heaven. Jesus is the only way. 🙂 We all worship and love the same Savior .
Why are you so judgmental?

jean…
The focus is wrong here. The objective is not heaven - the objective is an eternal relationship with the Trinity. Heaven, in the sense that most believe in it (pleasantness, joy, peace, fulfillment, etc.) is a condition of being that is really secondary to the relational aspect of eternal beatitude with God. I think the difference is important since too many calling themselves “Christians” think of salvation as a cracker-jack prize that if one only subscribes to the proper salvation slogan (i.e. “sola fide” - 'just believe") then they win. But that is too sterile an approach since it focuses the individual not on a relational aspect of salvation but rather on a juridical or “forensic” aspect or “rules” based perspective where God MUST give us the prize of heaven if we do the right thing (e.g. “just believe”). God of course will not permit anyone into His Heavenly House just because He MUST do so but rather only because He Loves you and knows you love Him for His sake and not for the sake of His many gifts and rewards. I use the comparison to marriage. How many happy marriages arise out of a condition where the bride really loved a rich bridegroom for the wondrous houses and cars and possessions a person has but was not all that excited about the person’s soul and personality etc.? I think Christianity has been mis-preached over the ages since the common believer was most often poor and saw that condition as a deficiency and equated happiness with its opposite - wealthy. But we all now know in the country of plenty (before current economic calamity) were a common average American eats and lives and is entertained better than any King in history ever did how few are really happy in a condition of plenty and wealth. How many times have we heard a “self-made” wealthy person say “I was so happy when first starting out and struggling to get ahead” and after arriving into wealth finding them say “is this all life has to offer me?”.

Sorry I digress. I had something I wanted to say here and had to give this contextual backdrop for it to make proper impact.

The Church actually does teach us that the only way to attain “eternal beatitude” with God (which the common man thinks of as “gaining heaven or salvation”) is through the Church. Sadly, most non-Catholics, especially Protestants do not have a strong “church” alignment or perspective since they focus more on a “forensic” formula based idea of “salvation”. Consequently, most modern-day Protestants simply can not fully embrace the concept that there is in fact NO dichotomy between God/Christ and Church as their tradition is to protest “church” and instead focus on personal salvation and “the bible only”. It is by nature a lone-ranger and individualistic sort of thinking. Protestants are thus really victims of their own theology since protest becomes almost an article or element of faith itself.

But The Church IS the body of Christ and really IS a real mystical supernatural entity with a soul. The CHurch literally is the Body of Christ and Bridegroom and its soul IS the Holy Spirit and Christ IS it’s head. So yes, the Church does teach that it is IMPOSSIBLE to gain eternal beatitude into heaven as a stranger since NO ONE gains Heaven who is not already In Heaven on Earth - the kingdom of God. One must be “IN” The Church at the time one enters their new phase of life when the corporeal state is completed at death. Let me repeat that - there is NO ONE in heaven who was not already substantially in heaven through the Body of Christ on earth since it is a relational aspect of one’s being.

So, it is possible for those who are not physically in the pews of a Catholic Church to attain eternal beatitude if they are mystically attached and in a proper relationship with God (“right with God”) at the time of their death. What Catholics teach is that is it is very very difficult for anyone to remain in “The Church” without physically being a formal member and regularly attending community worship to receive sacramental grace and support and nourishment. God may join whom he pleases to The Church at any time so that there are some who without consciously knowing so are in fact members of The Church and are joined “by desire” - even if at the moments just before death.

Bottom Line: Jesus is the only way - but Jesus is inseparable from His Church and it is only the factious and sectarian thinking of the non-Catholic denominations that imagine that The Catholic Church could ever be seperate from Christ. That is an impossibility since Christ has told us “The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail”. So anyone who preaches that Christ is not intimately connected to His Church tries to decapitate Christ and preaches a new gospel - these who preach such nonsence do not have a relationship with Christ since they do not believe or understand what Christ taught or is all about and are living a false faith that will not “save” them.

James
 
The latest protestant denomination d jour in my town is… ready for this?.. “The Holy Spirit Love Revival” Bring your hippy beads? To open on time they had to confer powers on ‘Joe’ before his online divinity degree was finished. Give me Catholocism or let me fall on my sword… :eek:
:rotfl::rotfl:
Our’s is 'End Times Harvest Church"
Funnier if you say it with a deep southern accent.
 
I don’t think that warning every non-C that they are at risk of eternal damnation is a good way to go about ministering to them. Jesus always approached people OUTSIDE the church with love and patience - he saved the criticism and sharp words for the hypocrites inside the church.
Thank you for your opinions - but what I have said is very mild (esp. compared to being more strong in my words in prior posting histories). And I must say I don’t agree with your opinion either.

As an Anglican, you should know very well that the Catholic Church has gone on record for 2,000 years preaching this same consistent message : Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS: Outside the Church there is no salvation). Your Anglican forefathers, before King Henry forced hijacked all Catholics to be in HIS new church, were all once Catholic who had real ordained apostolic Bishops and Priests. If you know the Anglican legacy and history then you must know your forefathers were all Catholic for over 1,000 years before the King “took the church”. All these rigorously believed and taught EENS too. If they were here today they would be passionately urging you to come into the Catholic Church - daily. The members of the ecclesia Anglicana branch of the Catholic Church, when it was Catholic, were more disciplined and focused than today’s generation of “patriotic-Anglicans”. They would know that a person who loves another person does not permit one to walk perilously close to the edge of the cliff to risk falling and perishing without giving them a warning. They would see that as irresponsible and know that it would put the guilt of loss on them for not speaking out at least a warning.

The very same sense of responsibility was present in the apostolic times. All apostles and disciples would warn you to your face if you were in danger of falling away. Frankly, I think you have a very anachronistic view of what the personalities of the apostles really were. Let me give you some insights:

*Galatians 1-9:
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

2 Peter 2:12
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

2 Peter 3:15-16
…our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Philippians 3:2-4
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh

Matthew 7:6
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Rev 22:114-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside [ed: the Church] are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Mark 7:27
And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”*

Sorry, I just don’t see a lot of love-n-lollipops false Christian pandering about being complacent in a false faith in the above verses. There is a sense of urgeny to get right with God and enter into the apostolic Church and the original gospel.
I also want to mention that a contrite heart is also believed by the Roman Church to remit sins, even without formal confession, and this would particularly apply to protestants. Sorry it’s taken so long to respond to your post!
This is strawman - I never said anything contrary to this. But let me correct you on what the Catholic Church really teaches. The Church teaches that those who are outside of the church through invincible ignorance who find themselves in post-baptismal mortal/grave sin may be forgiven if they form a PERFECT CONTRITION. But we also know that a perfect contrition is only formed when one is sorry for offending God out of love and without any regard to being fearful of His just punishments (hell). We also know that this is impossible for natural man to do on his own and it requires supernatural grace to attain to perfect contrition - where one must rather desire to die than offend God again and have real tears, spiritual pain and bitter sorrow over sinning against God. Few saints can attain this level of contrition. So to rely on this and to preach this as an alternative to sacramental confession is creating and abetting a false compassion that will likely lead many to hell. Further, if any Catholic is counseling a person that this perfect contrition is possible then they are also obligate to tell a person that they are obligated to become Catholic so that they may more easily gain forgivness through sacramental confession. That removes a barrier to the excuse of invincible ignorance (which one should rightfully also inform the person).

So why are you not Catholic when you should know better? Do you know the history of your Church?

James
 
All Pastors should attend a qualified Seminary for at least three or four years. They are doing the Lords work.
The Bible also teaches women are not to be pastors. 1Tim.2;12
Be careful who is teaching .Thankfully, this shoddy requirement is at a minimum

God bless,
jean
This is the hilarious part. Just what pray tell is a Protestant “qualified Seminary”??

There is NO SUCH THING in God’s eyes. No one can become a minister or priest of God unless God calls them. But the truth is there is NO secular priesthood recognized by God - so lay Protestant ministers are nothing more than secular spiritual advisors who have no real spiritual authority at all. Even if a Catholic would want to become a priest and go study etc. – if he is NOT called by God to enter the priesthood then he is not going to be ordained. This is why discernment is vital part of becoming a Catholic priest and why so many drop out - even after the long 6 or more years of advanced study and praying.

All the words “qualified seminary” means to a Protestant Church is that some school is meeting the minimum qualifications that the trustees of that particular religion’s “franchise” defined. It is a business. At its core a franchise Christianity accreditation system is nothing more but Simony - a “pedigree by licence” where one pays or is sponsored to be taught what the franchise wants you to believe is “orthodox”. Many of these Christian “franchises” require a fee to be paid back to the corporate headquarters when a minister is hired and gets his congregation tithing or takes over an existing “church”.

But one must ask “who accredits the accreditors” of Protestant divinity schools? The answer - a committee of mere men who have no apostolic credentials at all. But it is the closest equivalent of the Protestant Magesterim - but who’s members are elected or appointed by some mysterious private process that no one knows anything about. It is essentially a “good old boy’s club” of insiders who often personally profit through the franchise and the networking.

Compare and contrast this to the Catholic Church where we have ordered seminaries taught by apostolic priests and brothers as well as provisions for gaining educational credentials from highly esteemed secular colleges. Ironically, The Catholic Church WILL permit some of its seminarians to attend even some select secular as well as Protestant colleges for advanced study if those colleges are respected to be more objective in their theology programs and give all the competing religious views. But ultimately no Catholic seminarian is “called” by a bishop to be ordained simply by earning a theology degree. No. Many graduates are never called to be ordained and not accepted. One must be examined by the bishop and accepted to be ordained since the ordination is a spiritual pedigree not a secular one. Catholic ordination requires more than just a mere paper pedigree that is worth nothing at all to God.

James
 
I don’t think that warning every non-C that they are at risk of eternal damnation is a good way to go about ministering to them. Jesus always approached people OUTSIDE the church with love and patience - he saved the criticism and sharp words for the hypocrites inside the church. I also want to mention that a contrite heart is also believed by the Roman Church to remit sins, even without formal confession, and this would particularly apply to protestants. Sorry it’s taken so long to respond to your post!
[bolded emphasis mine]

Lauren, there is nothing wrong with warning about the imminent danger to one’s eternal soul. I get what you’re saying but the way I see this is that it is sounding the alarm to the dangers of non-conversion. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the urgent need for conversion as anything can happen to anyone at anytime.

If you see a person about to step off the sidewalk but they don’t notice the car barreling down the road about to hit him and you do, are you going to “patiently” tap him on the shoulder and say, “Uhm, excuse me, but there’s a car speeding down the road and you’re going to be hit by it.”

No, the proper response, albeit it may be considered “rude,” is to probably grab the guy by the arm and yank him back to safety. Or even to yell out alarmingly and urgently for them to “WATCH OUT!”

Since death can happen at any moment (Michael Jackson anyone? Oxyclean guy? Bueller?) there is an urgent need for one’s immediate conversion. To imply that one can have salvation outside of the Church that Christ Himself founded (which is the Catholic Church - not just Latin rite either) is to disregard its urgent importance on earth. And I think that’s why non-Catholics don’t bother TO convert. Sort of like the man stepping off the sidewalk onto a street with the oncoming car. “Oh, the driver will see me and they will swerve to avoid me.” How do you know that? You don’t.

Love and patience doesn’t always mean a, “Oh, it’s alright sweetie, do what you want you’ll learn.” Love AND patience, can also be a sound of alarm for an urgent need to do something now. Patience also doesn’t mean “slow” either.
 
Thank you for your opinions - but what I have said is very mild (esp. compared to being more strong in my words in prior posting histories). And I must say I don’t agree with your opinion either.

As an Anglican, you should know very well that the Catholic Church has gone on record for 2,000 years preaching this same consistent message : Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS: Outside the Church there is no salvation). Your Anglican forefathers, before King Henry forced hijacked all Catholics to be in HIS new church, were all once Catholic who had real ordained apostolic Bishops and Priests. If you know the Anglican legacy and history then you must know your forefathers were all Catholic for over 1,000 years before the King “took the church”. All these rigorously believed and taught EENS too. If they were here today they would be passionately urging you to come into the Catholic Church - daily. The members of the ecclesia Anglicana branch of the Catholic Church, when it was Catholic, were more disciplined and focused than today’s generation of “patriotic-Anglicans”. They would know that a person who loves another person does not permit one to walk perilously close to the edge of the cliff to risk falling and perishing without giving them a warning. They would see that as irresponsible and know that it would put the guilt of loss on them for not speaking out at least a warning.

The very same sense of responsibility was present in the apostolic times. All apostles and disciples would warn you to your face if you were in danger of falling away. Frankly, I think you have a very anachronistic view of what the personalities of the apostles really were. Let me give you some insights:

Sorry, I just don’t see a lot of love-n-lollipops false Christian pandering about being complacent in a false faith in the above verses. There is a sense of urgeny to get right with God and enter into the apostolic Church and the original gospel.

This is strawman - I never said anything contrary to this. But let me correct you on what the Catholic Church really teaches. The Church teaches that those who are outside of the church through invincible ignorance who find themselves in post-baptismal mortal/grave sin may be forgiven if they form a PERFECT CONTRITION. But we also know that a perfect contrition is only formed when one is sorry for offending God out of love and without any regard to being fearful of His just punishments (hell). We also know that this is impossible for natural man to do on his own and it requires supernatural grace to attain to perfect contrition - where one must rather desire to die than offend God again and have real tears, spiritual pain and bitter sorrow over sinning against God. Few saints can attain this level of contrition. So to rely on this and to preach this as an alternative to sacramental confession is creating and abetting a false compassion that will likely lead many to hell. Further, if any Catholic is counseling a person that this perfect contrition is possible then they are also obligate to tell a person that they are obligated to become Catholic so that they may more easily gain forgivness through sacramental confession. That removes a barrier to the excuse of invincible ignorance (which one should rightfully also inform the person).

So why are you not Catholic when you should know better? Do you know the history of your Church?

James
Sorry, but I actually almost smiled to myself when reading your reponse that pretty much further proved my point about your ‘witnessing’ (if that’s what you call it) style. You made a few major mistakes. First, you never asked me what my OPINION is of the Anglican Church, or the RCC. I go to an Anglican Church that I thought I would join, but am currently going to RCIA and hoping to convert to Catholicism next year. KNOW THY AUDIENCE. Though my little forum profile says ‘Anglican’ (which I AM currently - had to be honest) it does not fully communicate where I am in my Church journey.

My disagreement is not with your Church or its doctrines (though your personal interpretations of some of those doctrines are bothersome), but with your tone of, for lack of a better word, arrogance to those who are just not at the same place in their own journey. The verses you listed are absolutely true (how could I say otherwise - I believe the Bible is infallible), and warning other believers of ‘false prophets’ is certainly a good thing. And a stern word for someone who willfully attacks the RCC seems appropriate. BUT there are many non-C’s who AREN’T attacking your church, and are following Jesus to the best of their ability, perhaps out of ignorance, yes, but these aren’t malicious protestants. You dismissed my assertion that Christ himself lovingly corrected and taught people of many backgrounds in his parables and talks with the crowds, without calling them ignorant and hell-bound. It was the people who openly attacked him that He refuted with harsh words.

“So why aren’t you in the Church when you should know better?” (your quote) WOW. That really makes me want to get to know Catholics better. Seriously, you think that helps?

I also have noted that you have basically ignored Vatican II in your argument. After that point, the Catechism PLAINLY states that non-C, baptised Protestants should be RESPECTED (love that word) as brothers and sisters in Christ. I know that you’ll respond by saying that it is still almost impossible for a Protestant to make it to heaven, but if you do, then you’re adding your own words to the Catechism, because it never says this about Protestants.

Please, use some tact when speaking to people who are seeking truth, but maybe not where you are in that search.
 
Sorry, but I actually almost smiled to myself when reading your reponse that pretty much further proved my point about your ‘witnessing’ (if that’s what you call it) style. You made a few major mistakes. First, you never asked me what my OPINION is of the Anglican Church, or the RCC. I go to an Anglican Church that I thought I would join, but am currently going to RCIA and hoping to convert to Catholicism next year. KNOW THY AUDIENCE. Though my little forum profile says ‘Anglican’ (which I AM currently - had to be honest) it does not fully communicate where I am in my Church journey.

My disagreement is not with your Church or its doctrines (though your personal interpretations of some of those doctrines are bothersome), but with your tone of, for lack of a better word, arrogance to those who are just not at the same place in their own journey. The verses you listed are absolutely true (how could I say otherwise - I believe the Bible is infallible), and warning other believers of ‘false prophets’ is certainly a good thing. And a stern word for someone who willfully attacks the RCC seems appropriate. BUT there are many non-C’s who AREN’T attacking your church, and are following Jesus to the best of their ability, perhaps out of ignorance, yes, but these aren’t malicious protestants. You dismissed my assertion that Christ himself lovingly corrected and taught people of many backgrounds in his parables and talks with the crowds, without calling them ignorant and hell-bound. It was the people who openly attacked him that He refuted with harsh words.

“So why aren’t you in the Church when you should know better?” (your quote) WOW. That really makes me want to get to know Catholics better. Seriously, you think that helps?

I also have noted that you have basically ignored Vatican II in your argument. After that point, the Catechism PLAINLY states that non-C, baptised Protestants should be RESPECTED (love that word) as brothers and sisters in Christ. I know that you’ll respond by saying that it is still almost impossible for a Protestant to make it to heaven, but if you do, then you’re adding your own words to the Catechism, because it never says this about Protestants.

Please, use some tact when speaking to people who are seeking truth, but maybe not where you are in that search.
You bring up some important points that need to be remembered by all Catholics on this board. Sometimes zeal, especially for the newly converted, can easily be transformed into ridicule. I stepped away from all apologetic forums for a while because I was allowing my own emotional response to get in the way of charity. IOW, my desire for my opponents was that they feel the virtual slap I gave them. That is the mark of a spiritually immature person. I had to remember that I was once where they are now. And I was convinced not by the ‘turn or burn’ message (got enough of that in fundamentalism), I was convinced through the love and concern of Catholics who were willing to accept me where I was, but gently led me back home.
 
Sorry, but I actually almost smiled to myself when reading your reponse that pretty much further proved my point about your ‘witnessing’ (if that’s what you call it) style. …

My disagreement is not with your Church or its doctrines (though your personal interpretations of some of those doctrines are bothersome), but with your tone of, for lack of a better word, arrogance to those who are just not at the same place in their own journey.



You dismissed my assertion that Christ himself lovingly corrected and taught people of many backgrounds in his parables and talks with the crowds, without calling them ignorant and hell-bound. It was the people who openly attacked him that He refuted with harsh words.



I also have noted that you have basically ignored Vatican II in your argument. …
Lauren, I am glad that you can smile at my expense after hitting me with the ad-hominiums and the criticism. I hope that makes you feel good tonight.

Let’s cut to the chase Lauren - you have a personality clash with me and probably don’t like strong males who know what they are talking about, are intelligent, speak rationally, objectively and to the facts. That is your problem not mine. I don’t believe in pandering to anyone Lauren - and I only call people ignorant in two cases: 1) In the context of Invincible Ignorance as a Catholic doctrine and 2) People who use polemics to attack the church based on ignorant understandings of what Catholics really believe.

You are again way over-reading my tone and frankly are showing yourself to be very judgmental and worse here. Lauren, the problem with criticizing others is that one automatically opens one up to your own standard of judgment. And based on that I’d say you have your own stylistic and judgemental issues to deal with. 😉 Why did you choose to escalate a very minor thing publicly to the point where you now feel like you need to resort to silly ad-homonyms and judgmentalisms against me? How is this style of yours going to motivate me to change my ways to yours when they already are? 😉

If you have a personal issue with my style you can show a better “style” by addressing me in private message rather than attempting to grandstand me here.

BTW - do you really imagine that as a new RCIA candidate that you are qualified to judge my knowledge of Catholicism and dare try to discredit what I have said about Catholic teaching? That’s pretty cheeky without even knowing a thing about me personally (btw: Cradle Catholic, Catholic School and I won’t bother to tell you how many college degrees & time in apologetic works). What was that about “knowing your audience”? 😉 I know you mean well though and I am big enough to accept your point of view – even though I think it unjust. As they say in MBA school perceptions are often more important than reality when dealing with people’s prejudices, biases and blind-spots.

Just to clarify for record I have not given a single personal opinion that is contrary to any Church teaching nor misrepresented any. If you think I have then I invite you to point it out explicitly or retract your false statements and charges. Do not equate a personal exegesis of Catholic teaching in areas where it is silent as anything contrary. Catholics are certainly entitled to deeper insights within the apostolic teachings.

On other matters, it would help cut down confusion if you did identify yourself for what you really are - “in RCIA” or “exploring Catholic Faith” etc. It’s a simple 10 sec edit in the profile.

BTW in my over 4,000 posts no one, not even a veteran Catholic apologist peer here has ever spoken out to me to correct anything I have ever posted on Catholic teaching. I put a lot of thought into my choice of words. I will admit here that at times I will push-the-envelope toward the conservative side to get people out of their comfort zones to get serious about the real urgency to become Catholic - but I never mislead and don’t consider myself an alarmist – but very concerned about “the reality” of the Christian message. I really do not think Jesus was kidding when He said that few enter by the narrow gate in his pre-salvific message. There are eternities at stake. And most Catholics are too afraid to speak the hard truth on EENS to non-Catholics for fear of being seen as too hard-over on the very real implications of this teaching. Escape from EENS is ONLY by the condition of Invincible Ignorance – but NONE escape the moral law that God writes on each person’s heart through ignorance. Invincible Ignorance is supposed to be the exception NOT the norm. And you will find no Catholic Bishop or priest who would dare say it was the normative means for salvation. No way.

I would now like to salvage this dialog and make a positive out of a negative. I will do so on the next page since I am low on text space.

[continued]

James
 
[from prior post]
Sorry, but I actually almost smiled to myself


Lauren, these are very urgent spiritual times. This is no patty-cake game of church-shopping or trying all the different denominational flavors - don’t take that personally. But most don’t “get it” - things are happening in the world and there is huge spiritual warfare going on.

From Fatima and other saintly revelations and current world context (60 million legal abortions) it’s very clear that people are going to hell in large numbers - there is no room for complacency nor pandering. I’d rather be socially hated by everyone on the planet if I could save a single soul rather than pander people into hell with soft-teachings. It’s balancing act between putting people off and waking people up and I don’t think I am too far off balance here.

And finally - for the record Lauren - I did not ignore your comments. You just chose to ignore the passive style of my reply. Apparently it flew right over your head. I gave you scriptural counter examples without saying a word of my own to let scripture speak for itself in the “Protestant tradition". I wanted a stark counterpoint to your over generalized view of Christians being only of the soft-love variety. There is hard love too. But you failed to observe the passive non-confrontational style I opted for and it proves that you have a weakness for overgeneralizing “tone” both in scripture and with some of the people whom you are as eager to criticize in these forums (e.g Me).

To make this productive let me say - not ONE single Catholic saint did not fear God even as they loved Him. But few in the Church want to teach this since it’s not popular. But grace never comes without the gift of sorrow and suffering (what repentance and penance is). Thanks to the current over-proliferation of the “Jesus is Love” message to the exclusion of “Jesus as Just Judge” hawked in many “denominational churches” few in the Catholic Church now want to teach a “fear of God and do penance” message. The only “fear” now it seems is the fear of scaring away more Catholics to the Protestant’s easier message (as if Christianity and salvation is a popularity contest). I am sorry but I must speak frankly here - the real evil of Protestantism’s partial truth is that it constrains true Catholic teaching by competing with the harder truth. It is human nature to flee anxiety in favor of ease and comfort - Satan’s perfect trap – the wide path. Few know that St. Francis on his deathbed was unsure if he was worthy of salvation! Can you imagine? He knew what it really takes in terms of faith and devotion and self-denial. No, there is just no room for pandering the teachings Lauren and I shall not either.

I would like a retraction for this line:
**I also have noted that you have basically ignored Vatican II in your argument. **

I have done no such thing. The church acknowledges that a baptized person “may” be saved (not “may” as a general permission but simply “may” to acknowledge the non-normative possibility of it). But even here it taken always in the context of the doctrine of “Invincible Ignorance” (not my words – Church words) of the necessity to be a formal member of the Catholic Church. I am out of text space to further clarify but I assume you take my point.

Enough…

James
 
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