Outside the Church There is no Salvation?

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I have heard this phrase a few times. I know Protestants quote it (and have done so to me often) as a sign that the Catholic Church has put itself on par with God, saying that only Christ is neccesary for Savlation. Could someone explain this to me?
 
Wasn’t that the “Boston Heresy” where father Finney taught that there was no salvation outside the Catholic church?
 
Montie Claunch:
I have heard this phrase a few times. I know Protestants quote it (and have done so to me often) as a sign that the Catholic Church has put itself on par with God, saying that only Christ is neccesary for Savlation. Could someone explain this to me?
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This is a good question.
Protestants do not have the authority to make these claims, because they are not instituted by God. We can, and do, because WE ARE.
“Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” (Outside the Church there is no Salvation) has been Defined in many ways by the Popes. It is in the Deposite of Faith, and can be found in the Holy Bible (one, off-hand would be [para]“and if he hear not the church, let him be to thee a publican and heathen…”)
Here are three doctrines, or dogmas, that say one must be a FULL member of the Church as a prerequisite for obtaining salvation:

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302)

This means that those who are not in full communion with the Church, by obedience to the Pope, cannot claim a place in God’s Kingdom.

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)

"The most Holy Catholic Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

These staements are of the highest teaching authority in the Church. No other statements can remove, or redefine what has already been defined.
Many “underminers” of the Church have tried to do away with these ex cathedra statements, in an effort to make the Church more Protestant and Liberal.
You cannot re-define a defintition: A “Square” is, “a rectangle with four equal sides”- this definition cannot come to any-other conclusion, i.e. “There is no slavation outside the Church” cannot be redefined to say that there IS salvation outside the Church. Some new liberal ‘theologians’ try to say that those outside the Church can be saved by Her, through the graces Her members obtain; this cannot be so since it is defined “…and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier.”

It is pretty simple: Christ instituted His Church. It is necessary for our salvation- other-wise, He made a mistake. We must obey His Church, or be as a heathen and publican-- and rest assured, there are none of those in Heaven.

I hope this has helped you,
In Her Immaculate Heart,
WaxednWaned
 
Basically, it means that if you die and go to heaven it will be done via the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

From the Catechism:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

[846](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/846.htm’)😉 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[848](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/848.htm’)😉 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
 
I would like to remind you- since I have seen some of the posts here - that when a person is in doubt as to which statement is True, and which is “conjecture,” especially of those I had mentioned were loose in the Church, it is very easy to uncover: Find the statement that has the highest authory. This is your “Trump” card.
.
Always remember: The Church was instituted for a reason, as were the Sacraments. Any person who diminishes the reason Christ decided to use them as a way to slavation, will not go unpunished.

A note to those who have a mind to do this: Get behind me.

Good luck in these Protestant times
God Bless
 
Montie Claunch:
I have heard this phrase a few times. I know Protestants quote it (and have done so to me often) as a sign that the Catholic Church has put itself on par with God, saying that only Christ is neccesary for Savlation. Could someone explain this to me?
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The following is directly quoted from The Catholic Catechism; Hardon, John A. S.J.; Doubleday & Co,; Garden City, NY;1975
pgs. 234-236
"The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable develop-
ment, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papalinfallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiaality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-
understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind.
The New Testament makes it plain that Christ founded the Church to be a society for the salvation of all men. The ancient Fathers held the unanimous conviction that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. St. Ireneus taught that ‘where the Church is, there is the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace.’ (Council at Ephesus, The Primacy of the Roman Pontiff: Denzinger 112 (237) Origen simply declared, ‘Outside the Church nobody will be saved.’ (Homilia In Jesu Nave, 3, 5) And the favorite simile in patristic literature for the Church’s absolute need to be saved is the Ark of Noah, outside of which there is no prospect of deliverance from the deluge of sin.
Alongside this strong insistence on the need for belonging to the Church was another Tradation from the earliest times that is less well known. It was understandable that the early Christian wriers would emphasize what is part of revelation, that Christ founded ‘the Catholic Church which alone retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the home of faith; this, the temple of God’ (Lactantius, *Divinae Institutiones, *IV, 30, 1) They were com-
bating defections from catholic unity and refuting the heresies that divided Christianity in the Mediterranean world and paved the way for the rise of Islam in the seventh century.
But they also had the biblical narrative of the ‘pagan’ Cornelius who, the Acts tell us, was "an upright and God-fearing man’ even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were ‘God-fearing’ people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradation arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that such persons can be saved if some ‘invincible ob-
stacle stands in the way’ of his bapstism and entrance into the Church.
Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also condceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership byreason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.
It would be innacurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church’s magis-
terium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox.
Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that ‘The univer-
sal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,’
there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism of desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.
At the Second Council of the Vatican, both streams of doctrine were delicately welded into a composite whole: The Council] re-
*lies on sacred Scripture and Tradition in teaching that this pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation. *

continued
 
. Christ alone is the mediator of salvation and the way of salvation. He presents himself to us in his Body, which is the Churrch. When he insisted expressly on the necessity fro faith and baptism, he asserted at the same time the necessity for the Church which men would enter by the gateway of baptism. This means that it would be impossible for men to be saved if they refused to enter or to remain in the Catholic Church, unless they were unaware that her foundation by God through Jesus Christ made it a necessity.

Full incorporation in the society of the Church belongs to those who are in possession of the Holy Spirit, accept its order in its intirety with all its established means of salvation, and are united to Christ, who rules it by the agency of the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops, within its visible framework. The bonds of their union are the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical govern-

*ment and fellowship. Despite incorporation in the Church, that man is not saved who fails to persevere in charity, and remains in the bosom of the Church ‘with his body’ but not ‘with his heart.’ All the Church’s children must be sure to ascribe their distinguished rank to Christ’s special grace and not to their own deserts. If they fail to correspond with that grace in thought, word and deed, so far from being saved, their judgment will be the more severe. *Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, II, 14.

Using this conciliar doctrine as guide, we see that the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man’s salvation. The reason is that, since his ascension and the descent of the Spirit, the Church is Christ active on earth performing the salvific work for which he was sent into the world by the father. Accordingly, the Church is necessary not only as a matter of precept but as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved.

Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptized may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate co-

operation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive.

On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all the cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.

Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride them-

selves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what be-

gan as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.

Please exuse any typing errors.
 
You will see many posts from sites writen as a way to diminish the Defined doctrine of “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”
They may sound nice and sentimental- a way of making it easier on themselves I am sure- but the fact remains: God made rules- you must keep them.
I would only like to remind everyone that this is the reason the Church is suffering: Her reason to exist has been watered-down; the need for the Sacraments has been all but done away with (= no reason for a Priest)-
In order to believe the posts against the necessity of the Church, one has to: Deny the Infallibilty of the Pope; Deny ALL the Sacraments; Say that God does not provide the means necessary for a person to find the Truth in His Church, after they have asked; That one can desire something they don’t even know EXISTS… etc.
Here are some thoughts from Pope Leo XII: “Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. All who dissent from the Scriptures concerning Christ are not in the Church, and all who agree with the Scriptures concerning the Head but who do not communicate in the unity of the Church are not in the Church. They can in no way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother … Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort … Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect and spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible Head the Roman Pontiff … This is Our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment, salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (From: Annum Ingressi Sumus and Tametsi)

Again: When you are not sure - go to the Highest Authority and Pronouncement. Only that will be the Truth Entire. All else is filled with conjecture and guesses- some from those who did not have the benefit of the Pronouncement first- and some who choose to ignore them for their own pride.
Many times you find a Saint quoted on a topic that was NOT YET defined. You need to do the homework to find the truth. Church Fathers have always discussed matters that were not defined- mostly on request of the Pope, so that he may come to the Truth and define it once and for all- Some Saints were wrong on the matter- and after the definition OBEYED the Pope and changed their view immediately. People use these writings and musings for thier liberal benefit. My advice: Just find the Dogmatic Pronouncement from the Pope Ex Cathedra- Defined and Infallible- without error. Simple.
Anyone who tries to stop you from here to there- is a hater of the Catholic Church. “We are absolutely bound to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will.”

SAINT PIUS X- "We pray and conjure you to reflect on the ruin of souls which is wrought by this single cause: ignorance of those most sublime truths, so far beyond the natural understanding of the multitude, which must nonetheless be known by all men alike in order that they may attain eternal salvation. Nor will it do to say, as an excuse, that faith is a gift. Yes, all who are baptized in Christ have infused into them the habit of faith, but this most divine germ does not develop when left to itself, as though by its own power. Man at his birth has within him the faculty of understanding, but he must necessarily bring it into action. So, too, the Christian has faith within him, but he needs the word of the Church to make it fruitful. No one can fulfill the duties of a Christian without knowing them. We positively maintain that the will of man cannot be upright nor his conduct good while his intellect is the slave if crass ignorance! A man who has become blind is certain to walk into the mouth of danger. There is always some hope for the reform of evil-living so long as the light of faith is not wholly extinguished; whereas, if, as a result of ignorance, lack of faith is added to corruption, the situation scarcely admits of remedy, and the road to eternal ruin lies open. This we solemnly affirm: the majority of those who are condemned to eternal punishment fall into this everlasting misfortune through ignorance of the Mysteries of the Faith which must necessarily be known and believed by all who belong to the Elect."(cf. Acts of the Supreme Pontiff Pius X, Rome: Vatican Press, 1904)

Protestants hate the word “Elect” because they know they aren’t them. Many catholics are with the Protestant movement in this.

There is only ONE Truth- all else is iniquity, and God Hates Iniquity.
 
Council of Trent, 1545-1563**…796 “**In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of the sons’ [Rom. 8:15] of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior; and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration [can. 5 *de bapt.], or a desire for it” The Sources of Catholic Dogma; Denzinger

Canon 849 Baptism, the gateway to the sacraments, is necessary for salvation, either by actual reception or at least by desire.

CCC-1258 “The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This *Baptism of blood, *like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.”

CCC-1259 “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.”

One might also consider the so called “good thief” who, without the benefit of sacramental baptism, nevertheless received the promise that he would be with Christ that very day in Paradise because he asked the Lord to remember him when he (Christ) entered upon his reign.

Lastly, the Church still honors the “Holy Innocents” of Bethlehem as saints and martyrs by virtue of their baptism of blood.
 
Waxednwaned I hope you submit to the authority of the magisterium. If you want to look at the highest authority of the church, then look at the Catechism. In particular, Buffalo’s post and canon 847. It is my understanding that material heretics can be saved - we can’t say for sure but we can have hope that they can be saved.

Montie I suggest you have a look at the Catechism yourself. You can look at it online at vativan.va. In particular, check out the Church is Catholic (this is where it has the canons of Buffalo’s post). Another thing you can check out is this discussion between Gary Hoge (from www.catholicoutlook.com) and Tim Enloe. It is a discussion on anathema and excommunication. Gary describes what I mean by a “material heretic”, and he makes a very good argument for how non-Catholics can be saved.
 
Actually, here is the teaching of the Church, found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by our late Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, as a *“sure norm for teaching the faith:”
*
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And further, from the Catechism:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

He invoked his apostolic authority in the promulgation of this catechism, which is obviously about faith and morals, for the whole of the Church. Thus, it’s teaching cannot be error. Does it nullify EENS? No, it explains, explicates, and clarifies the previous teaching.
 
Two things that need addressed here:
  1. This thread is on “Outside the Church there is no salvation” not “Baptism of Desire” which, by the way, was posted as being a “defined” doctrine of the Church- it is not. In fact, the term “Baptism of Desire” has never been spoken in any council or Bull, by any Pope. “The desire for it” was spoken of in a decree on Justification not Salvation. If you wish to learn more about the difference between these two conditions, you can start a topic on it. After I return from my vacation I would love to read what your thoughts on it are.
  2. The Catechism is kinda ‘low’ on the “Authority” scale. It can be full of errors, and even teach heresy- which was the case of a few on-the-record Catechisms. They are now on the Vatican “list” of heretical books. (Yes, they had the imprimatur).
    The Catechism is only a book. Not an infallible source. The highest authority comes in Decrees spoken in Dogmatic Councils and Bulls. They must meet certain criteria.
    An “imprimatur” is not a guarantee that what you are reading is in line with Church Dogma.
God bless you all, and have a fine week to come- God Willing.
 
I find it an irony that Fr. Feeney, who took this “high” meaning, so as not to diminish it, found himself excommunicated and outside the Church himself, along side the others he condemned.

If in doubt, the Catechism is the sure norm of teaching. Unlike Protestants, who believe that everyone should interpret the Bible for themselves, or Fr. Feeney, who believed every Catholic should interpret church documents for himself (or at least he was at liberty to do so), we have a pope, magesterium and the catechism to help us.
 
As a Protestant who is studying Catholicism, I find it discouraging to discover that the Catechism is full of error. If the Catechism is supposed to be a statement of Catholic belief, why doesn’t it state the correct beliefs? If the Catechism is indeed in error, as waxednwaned says, how are those who approach the Church supposed to know what is true? If Catholicism is true, I want to accept it fully, so I’m not looking for excuses to remain Protestant. However, I must say that I find the “no salvation whatsoever outside the Church” view to be very depressing (to say the least). What this means is that all of those billions who have not heard the Gospel are condemned to Hell. In effect, God, knowing these people would never hear of His Church, created them for Hell. Plus, this basically means that all those righteous men and women of the Old Testament are also damned. So much for justice and mercy.
 
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waxednwaned:
  1. The Catechism is kinda ‘low’ on the “Authority” scale. It can be full of errors, and even teach heresy- which was the case of a few on-the-record Catechisms. They are now on the Vatican “list” of heretical books. (Yes, they had the imprimatur).
    The Catechism is only a book. Not an infallible source. The highest authority comes in Decrees spoken in Dogmatic Councils and Bulls. They must meet certain criteria.
    An “imprimatur” is not a guarantee that what you are reading is in line with Church Dogma.
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Not in the case of this catechism. No imprimatur is needed. It was promulgated by Apostolic Constitution, by the hand of the Holy Father himself. Look closely:

3. The Doctrinal Value of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom! The old Holy Father invoked his apostolic authority, he spoke on a matter of faith and morals, and he published it for the whole of the Church. As such, it is protected from error. Not only that, the *Imprimi Potest *for the volume was issued by the head of the Interdicasterial Commision for the Catechism, when he was also head of the Holy Office: Cardinal Ratzinger, now HH Pope Benedict XVI.
 
The Iambic Pen:
As a Protestant who is studying Catholicism, I find it discouraging to discover that the Catechism is full of error. If the Catechism is supposed to be a statement of Catholic belief, why doesn’t it state the correct beliefs? If the Catechism is indeed in error, as waxednwaned says, how are those who approach the Church supposed to know what is true? If Catholicism is true, I want to accept it fully, so I’m not looking for excuses to remain Protestant. However, I must say that I find the “no salvation whatsoever outside the Church” view to be very depressing (to say the least). What this means is that all of those billions who have not heard the Gospel are condemned to Hell. In effect, God, knowing these people would never hear of His Church, created them for Hell. Plus, this basically means that all those righteous men and women of the Old Testament are also damned. So much for justice and mercy.
Click to expand...
Iambic Pen: Do you have a copy of the Catechism? There is a section on our relations with our seperated brethren and a section on how we regard those who have never heard the Gospel. Read those. That’s the true teaching of the Church. Bear this in mind, as well. The Church never despairs of anyone, but prays for them, living and dead. Also, there’s always an excuse to be Protestant!!!
There just isn’t a reason! I’m not being glib or flip.
 
JKirkLVNV:
Iambic Pen: Do you have a copy of the Catechism? There is a section on our relations with our seperated brethren and a section on how we regard those who have never heard the Gospel. Read those. That’s the true teaching of the Church. Bear this in mind, as well. The Church never despairs of anyone, but prays for them, living and dead. Also, there’s always an excuse to be Protestant!!!
There just isn’t a reason! I’m not being glib or flip.
Click to expand...
I don’t have a copy of the Catechism, but I have found an online copy that I am trying to read through (though I still have a long way to go). I have read the sections you mentioned about the Separated Brethren before, and I find it encouraging. Obviously, if Catholicism is true, I don’t want to be separated anymore. What I do find confusing is that some Catholics seem to hold different beliefs than the Church and don’t accept recent decisions (like those SSPX guys). I guess for someone on the outside, it is confusing when someone says the Catechism is wrong. If this document is so important, why hasn’t the Pope corrected it?

God Bless!
 
JKirkLVNV - I have to agree with waxednwaned on this one. Regardless of what else may be said, the CCC is a document of the CDF and therefore not infallible. If, and I chose my words carefully here, the CCC is found to be contradictory to any known infallible document then it must be rejected. Its authority lies in its apparent lack of error, not on its de facto infalliblilty. Besides, isn’t it better to read what the Church says about herself (councilar documents) then to ponder an abreviated text? Besides I have never been one for “cliffnotes”.
 
Dear IP,

This is a hotly debated topic among many who call themselves Catholic, and, I would hesitate to guess, a major theological difference between certain groups, including some of the schismatic groups (like SSPX, as you mentioned).

It is true (I believe) that the Catechism as a document does not hold the charism of infallibility, so it is possible that it is in error as a document.

However, I also do not believe that the sources waxednwaned quoted from are infallible, either.

What we can know is that Vatican II, as an ecumenical council, was infallible, and the sections of the current catechism discussing invincible ignorance as it relates to salvation outside the Church are taken from Vatican II. So, although the *Catechism *document is not considered infallible as a whole, the doctrine concerning invincible ignorance is since it is grounded in the decree of an ecumenical council.

In general, though, we can faithfully believe what the CCC states with no worry that we will be culpable for any small errors that may be there. As a previous poster pointed out, it bears the teaching authority of the Pope.
All that aside, as a lifelong Catholic I still have trouble with this teaching and what it really implies. There seems to be a wide “gray area” of interpretation, and the analytical side of me tends to like things more black and white…

Peace,
javelin
 
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