Outside the Church there is no salvation"

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goout said:
A more positive way to say this from the perspective of salvation:
All who are saved are part of the Catholic Church.
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If by saved you mean those already in heaven, then yes I’d agree.

But again, as in the other thread you and I were commenting on. If we were given the truth from God through the Holy Spirit and safeguarded by the Church as the one true faith; how are we helping anybody, if when sharing the Truth, we tell them it is okay if you don’t accept the truth, you can be saved without it, because you’re following your own truth and even if it’s in grave error, you can be saved because you are professing to seek God.
 
Crusader13 said:
However neither of those hypothetical situations are the same as somebody who is willfully remaining outside of the Catholic Church and has no desire to receive communion or has belief that it is unnecessary or that it is even the actual body and blood of Jesus.

There’s a difference between having never heard the truth and choosing to believe something that is contrary to the truth.
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Of course, to know that the Church is the fullness of truth and to reject Her is sin, that is spelled out in the Catechism.

What is also clear in the Catechism is that those who are validly baptized and are outside the Church through no fault of their own, are not rejecting the Church nor are they willfully remaining outside of the Catholic Church.
 
Crusader13 said:
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goout:
A more positive way to say this from the perspective of salvation:
All who are saved are part of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
If by saved you mean those already in heaven, then yes I’d agree.

But again, as in the other thread you and I were commenting on. If we were given the truth from God through the Holy Spirit and safeguarded by the Church as the one true faith; how are we helping anybody, if when sharing the Truth, we tell them it is okay if you don’t accept the truth, you can be saved without it, because you’re following your own truth and even if it’s in grave error, you can be saved because you are professing to seek God.
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You don’t give the people indifference. You give them the truth. The truth is a person, Christ, not merely the doctrines.
So we preach the Gospel with complete respect of another’s freedom to follow their conscience. And we don’t know if in fact they (or us!) will be saved at the end of the day. Our mission is to proclaim the Gospel as the situation asks for it.

My future son in law is a secularized Hindu. You can only go so far in preaching the Gospel before you are an intrusive and disrespectful boor. And boorishness brings no one to Christ.
This all requires wisdom and good judgment; knowing what to say, when to say it, what to do and how to do it.
 
Yes EXACTLY!!! That is my whole point! We preach to them Christ and the truths that Christ gave us for our SALVATION! We don’t force people and we should respect those who choose not to believe!

We should also never compromise what we know to be true. If a person asks “do I need to accept Jesus and to be baptized in order to enter Heaven?” I tell them yes. If they ask “will I be damned to hell if I don’t?” I tell them I do not know. The Church acknowledges that there are possible situations in which a person may be saved outside of what He commanded. Will that possibility extend to you and your situation, I have no idea. That decision falls squarely on God Himself and whom He choses to extend His mercy to.

If they wish to hang their salvation on the possibility that they might be saved outside of the Church, that is between them and God and their fate will be made known to them upon their death. I would rather share with them an assurance of salvation based upon the truths that Christ Himself has given us. That if we remain faithful to these truths and persevere unto the end, we will be rewarded with the gift of eternal life. Is it a certainty that all members will remain faithful, of course not. But the promise is there for those who do and that promise goes far beyond any mere possibility of being saved in any other way.
 
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John121 said:
Is this true

outside the Church there is no salvation "
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A few thoughts

From Vat II paragraph 14, from Lumen Gentium

tucked in with all the ecumenical language is this paragraph
(all emphasis mine)
“14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

Seems to me "knowing" is an operative and important word. That’s why Catholics are to evangelize.

And in extension, it doesn’t necessarily mean a person who puts no effort into knowing the truth when it is there in front of them, is therefore OK either.

Also, should one be baptized outside the Church , and commits no mortal sins in their life, would be saved through their baptism
 
I’ve heard that before, and I understand the emotional reaction. But… it isn’t a logical conclusion for me.

If:
  • You believe that the Church was founded by Christ
  • You believe in the Real Presence
  • You believe in the Sacraments…
what on earth does a bad or tone deaf priest have to do with it?

I think I was lucky. My Grandmother helped catechise me; and her Grandmother was Lutheran. I got many ‘The Church is made up of imperfect human sinners who are often imperfect and sin; those imperfect humans don’t affect its perfect Divine foundation’ lectures.
 
steve-b said:
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John121:
Is this true

outside the Church there is no salvation "
Click to expand...
A few thoughts

From Vat II paragraph 14, from Lumen Gentium

tucked in with all the ecumenical language is this paragraph
(all emphasis mine)
“14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

Seems to me "knowing" is an operative and important word. That’s why Catholics are to evangelize.

And in extension, it doesn’t necessarily mean a person who puts no effort into knowing the truth when it is there in front of them, is therefore OK either.

Also, should one be baptized outside the Church , and commits no mortal sins in their life, would be saved through their baptism
Click to expand...
The fullest interpretation of “knowing and refusing to enter” has also been proposed as more than hearing it in a class or reading it somewhere and not taking the plunge.
Any protestant I know has heard the Catholic Church’s teaching on this, and they have heard their own church’s evangelization, and been raised in their own Christian families. So truly, what is it they know in the deepest sense? That which they have been nurtured in, or that which they have read or heard outside their own community?

Similar to the conditions for mortal sin (and a person who is not saved is in a mortal condition, right?), a person must have full knowledge and full consent to the grave decision he/she is making.
We evangelize because we love the Lord and love the hearer, and want to share the full joy of salvation that is on offer.
 
Jimbo said:
I’ve heard that before, and I understand the emotional reaction. But… it isn’t a logical conclusion for me
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It might be if it was your mother who came home crying because of what the priest said.
 
Fair enough, but I’ve had family members deeply wounded by something a priest said. The reaction more was ‘Wow, what a crappy way to handle that’ and ‘I need to check what the Church really says…’

Priests are people too.
 
I’m very sorry it happened. Honestly. And I don’t think your father is a bad person in any way, especially if he was a kid at the time, I’m sorry if it came off that way. I can be overly simplistic sometimes, especially when writing things.

I still stand behind the fact that I was lucky to have my Grandmother and her mother’s experience. It put things properly into perspective. Not everyone has that. But it should be something that the Church tries to put out there. I think that it is getting better. Truth of the message should trump how crappy the people can be sometimes.

If the Catholic Church is True, then we should try to make sure other people know that and know that they might experience imperfections.

I suppose what I rail against is the people that I’ve met who bail because of ‘Father X’. Father X isn’t the Church. Father X isn’t the kerygma. Father X might be a downright bad person. But if you bail on the truth because of Father X it is a case of bailing on Jesus because of Judas, and that is a huge loss for the person.

I wish you the best, and ask your pardon for any offense.
 
“goout said:
steve-b said:
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John121:
Is this true

outside the Church there is no salvation "
Click to expand...
From Vat II paragraph 14, from Lumen Gentium

“14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

Seems to me "knowing" is an operative and important word. That’s why Catholics are to evangelize.

And in extension, it doesn’t necessarily mean a person who puts no effort into knowing the truth when it is there in front of them, is therefore OK either.
Click to expand...
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goout:
The fullest interpretation of “knowing and refusing to enter” has also been proposed as more than hearing it in a class or reading it somewhere and not taking the plunge.
Any protestant I know has heard the Catholic Church’s teaching on this, and they have heard their own church’s evangelization, and been raised in their own Christian families. So truly, what is it they know in the deepest sense? That which they have been nurtured in, or that which they have read or heard outside their own community?
Click to expand...
Re: knowing vs not knowing

Without grace of faith, (as Jesus showed) and one accepting that grace of faith, no one will learn as in one will not know or believe the subject being taught. We read Even Jesus, God in the flesh as the personal teacher, face to face directly with His audience, THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE HIM OR THE SUBJECT & WALKED AWAY

The scary part of that scripture, Jesus didn’t go after them. He didn’t attempt to clarify what He said. He let them go.

Is there consequences for them?
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goout:
Similar to the conditions for mortal sin (and a person who is not saved is in a mortal condition, right?), a person must have full knowledge and full consent to the grave decision he/she is making.
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As we know, that is not a cut and dried rule across the board.

Example:

People can game the system with a faulty or corrupt conscience. They can demote any grave sin to a misdemeanor or no fault at all in their own mind… right?
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goout:
We evangelize because we love the Lord and love the hearer, and want to share the full joy of salvation that is on offer.
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True
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I don’t know what the specific consequences of individual lives truly are. No one does. We know what The Lord asks of us, and must live with the imperatives of his words. The particular judgment of the individual soul is a mystery, and not the kind of mystery that causes us to capitulate.
But the true sense of mystery that draws us in and helps us live upright lives, and helps us to evangelize others to pursue that mystery to it’s fulfillment.

I try to be with the Church in respecting the conscience operating in others, but not to exalt it. Our freedom carries grave responsibilities. We have a responsibility to the gift of faith. To continue forming our conscience according to Christ’s teaching as fully expressed through the Church.
 
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goout said:
I don’t know what the specific consequences of individual lives truly are. No one does.
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I would just point to

what Jesus said when asked are only a
few are saved

As one can see, Jesus didn’t invalidate the questioners question. He validated it and doubled down on the answer. IMV that is the scariest passage in scripture.

AND

where did Jesus answer come from? The Father.
 
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Were does he say this in the Bible, could I get a verse or something off of you for this ?
 
John121 said:
Were does he say this in the Bible, could I get a verse or something off of you for this ?
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His post included hyperlinks to the relevant Bible verses. I’ll post them here:
“Luke 13:23-28 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.”
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“John 5:22 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,”
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