Outside the "church"

[John_Hiner]

John Hiner;2413892:

So you are going to sit here and tell me that someone who gives to the poor, sacrafices so much of what they have, never accepts glory or credit but in return gives to to God, accepts Christ as their savior, and lives THE FRUITS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (love, kindness, joy, etc.) but doesn’t believe every single Catholic doctrine to be true? Then that person is dammed?? Even so if that person would stand before God and where God would tell him that he was wrong in denying this or that Catholic doctrine, and then the person can see beyond the shadow of a doubt that they were wrong, out of ignorance, NOT pride (as SO many Catholics have) and gladly now accept the Truth hearing it from God’s mouth and not 100 others all proclaiming to be true, but that soul is still dammed?? You have got to be kidding!!! What kind of evil is in one’s soul for that?

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “The Catholic”:

I am not sure what connection you see between doctrine or “teachings” and life.

For example, if one were an atheist who believed that the basic reality of things is material and human beings cease to exist upon corporal death, this would have a profound effect on his relationships and attitudes toward people. It would affect him in millions of subtle and unspoken ways. He would have a transient experience of people. He would feel that lying to them could succeed, so long as he not be discovered before they or he died. When a friend died, the materialist would be hopeless about seeing them again and the accumulating pain of loss as more of his friends and family died would be relieved only by forgetfulness or finally by looking forward to the oblivion of his own death. He would never have to “profess” these beliefs; they would have their effects without ever being articulated.

Now imagine the differences between a Protestant (of arbitrarily chosen beliefs, since I know that not all “protestants” share any given “Protestant theory” of things) and a good Catholic.

Our hypothetical Protestant believes that the most important relationship in his life is between him and Jesus. He views heaven as a one-on-one affair with Jesus, who has all of the power and all of the impact on anything that affects the afterlife. He also believes that Jesus will “cover for him” and let him into heaven, even though he is not actually sinless. Subliminally, how would this person view other people? It seems that at the deepest level, other people would not be important to him, except in an instrumental way. He may be “good” to them, he may do many “good” things because Jesus directed him to do them, but he would not believe that these things are important because of the other person, only because of Jesus. Also, if he fails to do these things, it would not matter really, since Jesus will clean things up for the other person, or will just ignore what happened and treat the Protestant well in spite of any such failure – since sin has to be “covered” in any case a little more, a little less, makes little difference because the only choice is between heaven and hell.

How is this different for a Catholic? For a Catholic heaven is a communal affair. The Saints have power and impact. One is not in relationship with Jesus alone, but with Jesus and all other people who are in “the Total Christ.” This means that when one deals with a person, that person has eternal import, in himself as well as in Christ. The other person, one hopes, will be in heaven and one’s relationship with them will need to be pure. If it is not purified during corporal life, then it will need to be painfully purified before entering heaven. This is an impact of the doctrine of Purgatory. The Catholic believes that at the Second Coming all things will be revealed, his secret deeds and thoughts will be known not only to Jesus, as they are now, but to every other person including those who are the objects of those thoughts or secret acts. If the Catholic takes these beliefs seriously, then each encounter with other people needs to be as pure and sinless as possible, and any shortfall needs to be corrected as soon as possible. Even those shortfalls which are forgiven need to be cleansed and healed, because they have real and eternal impact on things. Further, the choice is not merely heaven or hell, the purification of Purgatory and the hierarchy of merit among the Saints both mean that improvement is important, even slight differences in the degree of sinfulness or merit matter eternally. He must work diligently and constantly to actually become better, more perfect in love, more diligent in works, more pure in intention, deeper in intimacy and authentic in caring for other people as well as for God.

Continued . . .

 

[John_Hiner]

Continued . . .

This is just a brief essay, suggesting only a few of the millions of ways in which such doctrinal beliefs will profoundly affect the quality and form of one’s intentions, actions, and valuation of people, things, etc.

Let me try to give a narrower example. Imagine each of the three characters above in conversation with a person where they stand to gain substantially from lying, and where they do not expect to meet the prospective victim of their lie again in corporal life:

The Atheist may consider the cost and chance of getting caught against the benefit to be gained by lying. He thinks if he is not discovered right away, he will never suffer any adverse consequence. Whether to lie or not is a mere calculation or probability of detection.

The Protestant considers the cost and chance of getting caught against the benefit as well, at least with regard to embarrassment and inconvenience if he is caught. In addition to this, he considers that Jesus will be disappointed if he lies – however, Jesus will not be too disappointed, and He will forgive the lie. The very fact that the Protestant thinks that Jesus’ opinion matters is proof of belief in Jesus as Lord, so this will certainly not cost much – only a slight disappointment of the always forgiving Jesus.

The Catholic may consider the cost and benefit of getting caught. However, he may not. He believes that he will be caught, both God and the victim of the lie will know eventually. The question of whether the embarrassment is sooner or later is the real gist of the estimate about being caught. Then he also realizes that Jesus will disapprove – in fact, without authentic contrition, that is without the Catholic actually re-thinking the matter and believing that the lie is wrong, Jesus will not forgive. Hence, deciding to lie may make repentance difficult, because a fundamental change of heart will be required, and cannot be counted on beforehand. But, even if Jesus does forgive the lie, it will have to be paid for, either in the form of present penance or in Purgation after corporal death, so there will be personal cost even if Jesus forgives.

I submit that these three experiences are very different, even if all three result in the same decision to lie or not to lie in this particular instance. To the atheist neither the lie nor the victim matter. To the Protestant the lie matters, but not much and the victim is just a bit player in the drama starring Jesus and the Protestant. For the Catholic, salvation may be at issue, justice is certain, and the other person matters directly and the relationship with the other person matters in itself, as well as because of its impact on his relationship with Christ.

A blatant example of the devaluation of people is the Protestant’s refusal to believe that Mary, the Saints, the Pope, or any Priest has been given real power which has actual eternal effects on other people. This leads subtlety to a broad assumption that other people do not really matter as much as Catholics think they do.

The facts are much more extensive and complex than these examples set out. However, the point is, if one’s beliefs affect one’s life, then a universe based on mechanics and matter is very different than one based on the mutual love of Persons. A world of people who are flawed and never to be perfected, where only one relationship is of lasting importance is very different from a world were people have eternal import and power in a complex and hierarchical society. Only in the Catholic view is the reality of the universe accessible and only in that real universe are we able to love God and others in the way that Christ loved them. Every other approach makes love, if not impossible, then less deep and authentic.

These beliefs do deeply affect the quality and nature of one’s attitudes, values, and relationships with God and people. Superficial similarities in behavior mask the deep differences; they make the difference between the wide and the narrow paths. It is precisely because God looks into one’s heart that the subtleties of these doctrines matter deeply.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[John_Hiner]

I don’t reject Christ’s Church. I am part of it just as you are. I don’t appreciate you telling me that I am rejecting Christ when I live my life as best I can to follow Him and Him only. Show a little more charity please. I don’t go around accusing you guys of this.

Christ’s Church is made up of His followers not a building and not a religious order. I think we have all seen how man can turn a sect of Christianity into something evil and leave out Christ. ON BOTH SIDES. But that is for another thread.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “Singinbeauty”:

The admonition and plea for conversion to the Holy Roman Catholic Church is loving. Christ did not say to follow “Him and Him only.” In fact, He did say to His Church, “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Lk 10:16).

Jesus uses the word “Church” on only two occasions in the Gospels:

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mt 16:18.)

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. (Mt 18:17-18.)

The Church founded on Peter is the Church which judges and which must be obeyed, if one wishes to be regarded as a disciple of Christ.

This aspect of the Incarnation, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in and the union of the glorified Jesus with a society of human persons, is difficult for some to accept. It is as hard as accepting the Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Cup of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is as hard as accepting that the power of God to forgive sins has been entrusted to men or that Moses’ and David’s power to make laws and govern the People of God has been entrusted to Jesus Christ’s “steward,” His vicar, the Pope;

And you are they who have continued with me in my temptations: And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom; That you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom: and may sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you [plural], that he may sift you [plural] as wheat: But I have prayed for thee [singular, Peter alone], that thy faith fail not: and thou [singular], being once converted, confirm thy brethren. (Luke 22:27-32.)

These are as difficult for some to accept as it was for some members of Israel in the First Century to accept that God, the Strong One of Jacob, the I AM, was a human being, walking and preaching in their midst. The Incarnation is difficult to accept; it is central to salvation; and both the Incarnation and salvation continue to this day in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

In the complexity of discussion, I thought that it might be helpful to make clear the continuing call for everyone to belong to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Some have become confused and seem to have lost sight of this call to repentance and conversion. I thought it would be kind to say straight out that this is needed and that all are passionately and lovingly called to it:

As often as the sacrifice of the cross in which Christ our Passover was sacrificed, is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried on, and, in the sacrament of the eucharistic bread, the unity of all believers who form one body in Christ is both expressed and brought about. All men are called to this union with Christ, who is the light of the world, from whom we go forth, through whom we live, and toward whom our whole life strains. Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 3.

**All men are called to belong to the new people of God. **Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 13.

This is not a “charge” or a “threat,” it is a challenge and an invitation. Join the Holy Roman Catholic Church; we have work to do; you are needed and wanted.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[Singinbeauty]

The admonition and plea for conversion to the Holy Roman Catholic Church is loving. Christ did not say to follow “Him and Him only.” In fact, He did say to His Church, “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” (Lk 10:16).

What does that say about me if I DON’T despise the catholic church? I don’t necessarily reject it I just am not sure that is the path that God has for me. I am here to learn but I have heard and awful lot that troubles me about the catholic faith. There are some REAL things that I do not agree with and don’t see myself wrapping my head around for a while.

Jesus uses the word “Church” on only two occasions in the Gospels:

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mt 16:18.)

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. (Mt 18:17-18.)

The Church founded on Peter is the Church which judges and which must be obeyed, if one wishes to be regarded as a disciple of Christ.

But I believe that the Church built by Christ was built on Peter’s belief. His Faith in Christ and the fact that Christ would build it on Peter’s Faith tho knowing that Peter would deny Christ is a wonderful testament of how Christ looks at our entire Faith in Him rather than our actions as they happen. I AM part of Christ’s Church. The Body of Believers in Him. We are ALL a part of the Christ’s Catholic (Universal) Church.

These are as difficult for some to accept as it was for some members of Israel in the First Century to accept that God, the Strong One of Jacob, the I AM, was a human being, walking and preaching in their midst. The Incarnation is difficult to accept; it is central to salvation; and both the Incarnation and salvation continue to this day in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Christ isn’t hard to accept. He is total and part of my life. And I never said anything about the catholic church missing out on salvation. Just because I am not RC doesn’t mean I have anything against it. It is just not the path for me.

In the complexity of discussion, I thought that it might be helpful to make clear the continuing call for everyone to belong to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Some have become confused and seem to have lost sight of this call to repentance and conversion. I thought it would be kind to say straight out that this is needed and that all are passionately and lovingly called to it:

As often as the sacrifice of the cross in which Christ our Passover was sacrificed, is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried on, and, in the sacrament of the eucharistic bread, the unity of all believers who form one body in Christ is both expressed and brought about. All men are called to this union with Christ, who is the light of the world, from whom we go forth, through whom we live, and toward whom our whole life strains. Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 3.

**All men are called to belong to the new people of God. **Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 13.

I don’t think that you have to be part of the catholic church to unite with Christ. I love Christ and wake up praying that I follow Him EVERY DAY. For you to downplay that and cheapen it is offensive to me. You don’t know my heart and you don’t know my relationship with God. Just because I am protestant does not mean that I have a fake relationship with Christ.

This is not a “charge” or a “threat,” it is a challenge and an invitation. Join the Holy Roman Catholic Church; we have work to do; you are needed and wanted.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

It was an accusation. You said I reject Christ by not being catholic. Whether you consciously meant it that way or not makes no difference. That is how I perceived it and so maybe it is a lesson on how you word things on the internet.

I accepted the challenge a while ago and through my search I have not found a pull to be catholic. Maybe God has another avenue for me. I feel called to bring peace and unity between protestants and catholics. To find common ground so that maybe we can turn the anymosity towards each other into something great and focused on God so the rest of the world can see God through us. Right now they just see a bunch of people who claim to be christian but can’t even work together as a whole to bring God to the world. So maybe God keeps me protestant to be at least ONE who can show catholics that not every protestant is an anti-catholic bigot who spouts evil mis-understandings of the catholic church.

 

[Bishopite]

I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing my Church, I’m not, I love Catholicism. It’s so peaceful for me, satisfying, truthful, and clear. I know many Catholics who are humble and God-fearing too. But I just cannot accept the “no salvation outside the Church” doctrine. It’s ridiculous, evil, and unGodly to me.

I’m sure that the magority of non-catholics deny the Church because of pride and hate, and I don’t see how these people could be saved. But I believe there are many others, some whom I personaly know, who are not catholic but live like they are and I don’t believe they will be dammed if they die in that state. If I’m wrong, then so be it. But that’s what I believe.

Most people misunderstand what the Catholic church is saying by “no salvation outside the church” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus). A more easy way to understand it is this way. In Luke 12:48 Jesus said that those who have been given much, much is required, those who have been give more, more is required.
If a person is ignorant of “knowing” that they need to join to the Catholic church, then God doesn’t count that against them since God is a just God. However, if someone does know and fails to act upon that hunch or to seek God’s truth which is found in its fullness in the Catholic church, then they are certainly culpable, because Jesus did establish the Catholic church; I don’t say that bragadociously but only as truth.

The 64,000 dollar question is how do we know who actually knows in their soul that they should be Catholic or return to the Church, and who doesn’t know? The answer is: no one knows for sure but God alone.

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “Singinbeauty”:

I am sorry if you are feeling ill used. I do not intend you harm. The following comments are meant to be both friendly and helpful. Please read them in that spirit, if possible.

[By the way, you type very quickly.]

What does that say about me if I DON’T despise the catholic church? I don’t necessarily reject it I just am not sure that is the path that God has for me. I am here to learn but I have heard and awful lot that troubles me about the catholic faith. There are some REAL things that I do not agree with and don’t see myself wrapping my head around for a while.

You may be reading too much into the translation “despise.” More recent translations render the word as “reject” (English Standard Version) or “saying ‘No” (Contemporary English Version). The Greek word which is being rendered is some form of “atheteaw,” which Perseus’ lexicon defines as: “to set aside: to deny one, refuse his request.”

But I believe that the Church built by Christ was built on Peter’s belief. His Faith in Christ and the fact that Christ would build it on Peter’s Faith tho knowing that Peter would deny Christ is a wonderful testament of how Christ looks at our entire Faith in Him rather than our actions as they happen. I AM part of Christ’s Church. The Body of Believers in Him. We are ALL a part of the Christ’s Catholic (Universal) Church.

I am not sure what you mean here. Do you mean “Peter’s faith” or do you just mean the proposition “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt. 16:16)? If you mean the proposition, then what makes it “Peter’s” rather than anyone’s? If you mean Peter’s faith overall, as you say Christ looks at it, then does not that include his taking the Church to Rome and establishing it there under his successors – who he reputedly ordained as bishops before his death? Either way, if it is Peter’s faith on which Christ’s Church is founded, then should not your question be, “Am I part of Peter’s Church? – which is still where he established it, in Rome.

Christ isn’t hard to accept. He is total and part of my life. And I never said anything about the catholic church missing out on salvation. Just because I am not RC doesn’t mean I have anything against it. It is just not the path for me.

I don’t think that you have to be part of the catholic church to unite with Christ. I love Christ and wake up praying that I follow Him EVERY DAY. For you to downplay that and cheapen it is offensive to me. You don’t know my heart and you don’t know my relationship with God. Just because I am protestant does not mean that I have a fake relationship with Christ.

St. John should give you pause in this matter (see, 1 Jn 2:4).

It was an accusation. You said I reject Christ by not being catholic. Whether you consciously meant it that way or not makes no difference. That is how I perceived it and so maybe it is a lesson on how you word things on the internet.

I do say that to reject the Holy Roman Catholic Church is to reject Christ. This is a hard saying. However, it is not an accusation, because there is no prosecution. I am not trying to accuse or convict you. I am trying to be your friend.

And if any man hear my words, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that despiseth [rejects] me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day (Jn 12:47-48).

Neither do I come to judge or accuse you. I am willing and eager to discuss these matters with you, to address the things that you do not approve of in the Church. However, it would be unfriendly of me, if I did not warn you that you ought conform yourself to the “pillar and ground of the truth,” (1 Tm 3:15), the Holy Roman Catholic Church, rather than expect that the Church would agree with your opinions or judgments. After all, what would you have to learn from the Church, if she only said what you already believe?

You say that you have not “found a pull to be catholic [sic],” I do not know in what part you would sense this “pull.” However, I hope that you now know that you are called to the Roman Catholic Church. If you are able to heed a call rather than hope for a pull, the Church is calling to you (see, Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 3, 8, 13, etc.).

Pax Christi et Spiritus Sapientiae tecum.

John Hiner

 

[The_Catholic]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “The Catholic”:

I am not sure what connection you see between doctrine or “teachings” and life.

Now imagine the differences between a Protestant (of arbitrarily chosen beliefs, since I know that not all “protestants” share any given “Protestant theory” of things) and a good Catholic.

Our hypothetical Protestant believes that the most important relationship in his life is between him and Jesus. He views heaven as a one-on-one affair with Jesus, who has all of the power and all of the impact on anything that affects the afterlife. He also believes that Jesus will “cover for him” and let him into heaven, even though he is not actually sinless. Subliminally, how would this person view other people? It seems that at the deepest level, other people would not be important to him, except in an instrumental way. He may be “good” to them, he may do many “good” things because Jesus directed him to do them, but he would not believe that these things are important because of the other person, only because of Jesus. Also, if he fails to do these things, it would not matter really, since Jesus will clean things up for the other person, or will just ignore what happened and treat the Protestant well in spite of any such failure – since sin has to be “covered” in any case a little more, a little less, makes little difference because the only choice is between heaven and hell.

How is this different for a Catholic? For a Catholic heaven is a communal affair. The Saints have power and impact. One is not in relationship with Jesus alone, but with Jesus and all other people who are in “the Total Christ.” This means that when one deals with a person, that person has eternal import, in himself as well as in Christ. The other person, one hopes, will be in heaven and one’s relationship with them will need to be pure. If it is not purified during corporal life, then it will need to be painfully purified before entering heaven. This is an impact of the doctrine of Purgatory. (quote)

LOL! It’s funny how you mention “a Protestant” and then a " ‘Good’ Catholic." As if no Protestant or non-Catholic is good. I understand what you’re saying, and agree on how the Catholic views the world, others, and the Church, but HOW can you honestly sit back and tell me that no non-Catholic, or no Protestant doesn’t truly care for others? That people are just “instruments” to non-Catholics. I can tell you that that’s NOT how I viewed others when I was Protestant. I viewed everyone as human beings created in God’s image, I wept for people who knew not Christ, praying that they would one day be saved, I treated everyone the same and always desired for everyone to be a family, and work together in union and love in God Almighty. I didn’t view another person as merely an instrument…

 

[The_Catholic]

…listen, Protestant doctrines to me are silly, and make no sense. That’s why I left. The idea of not being “pure” but legaly “declared holy” is ridiculous and Purgatory makes alot of sense, and of course I believe that. I’m not talking about doctrines like thiat. I believe Catholicism speaks the “fullness” of Truth. What I disagree with is that if someone doesn’t call himself a “Catholic” then they cannot be saved. I disagree that if one is not Catholic then they can not be a good humble spirit thirsty for God’s love, mercy, and law. That’s where it is, that’s where it comes down to. Someone who wants or desires to live by the Almighty’s Law, and lives by it is a child of God to me, and unknowingly “Catholic.” Anotherwords they would gladly accept every doctrine of the Church if they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was true. But not everyone agrees. There are SO MANY different preachers out there, even Catholics and Orthodox argue about things, and people interpret the Church Father’s differently because the Church Fathers, while mostly Catholic as I can see, still disagreed on certain doctrines.

Perhaps I’m not making myself clear, as it’s hard for me to write, but I am simply saying that I do not believe that non-Catholics are dammed. Just as long as it is no fault of their own, but if they deny the Church out of selfish pride and hate, then that’s a different story.

 

[The_Catholic]

Most people misunderstand what the Catholic church is saying by “no salvation outside the church” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus). A more easy way to understand it is this way. In Luke 12:48 Jesus said that those who have been given much, much is required, those who have been give more, more is required.
If a person is ignorant of “knowing” that they need to join to the Catholic church, then God doesn’t count that against them since God is a just God. However, if someone does know and fails to act upon that hunch or to seek God’s truth which is found in its fullness in the Catholic church, then they are certainly culpable, because Jesus did establish the Catholic church; I don’t say that bragadociously but only as truth.

The 64,000 dollar question is how do we know who actually knows in their soul that they should be Catholic or return to the Church, and who doesn’t know? The answer is: no one knows for sure but God alone.

I agree with you.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “Singinbeauty”:

I am sorry if you are feeling ill used. I do not intend you harm. The following comments are meant to be both friendly and helpful. Please read them in that spirit, if possible.

[By the way, you type very quickly.]

My first reaction is to just hit ignore and be done with you. The hate you have for protestants is very clear. You do not follow your own church’s teachings in the fact that we are bretheren though separated. You do not mean any of this in the spirit of anything BUT to antagonize me and get me riled up. This will not happen.

You may be reading too much into the translation “despise.” More recent translations render the word as “reject” (English Standard Version) or “saying ‘No” (Contemporary English Version). The Greek word which is being rendered is some form of “atheteaw,” which Perseus’ lexicon defines as: “to set aside: to deny one, refuse his request.”

I do NOT despise nor do I necessarily REJECT the catholic church. I am open to wherever God wants me. Right now that is not within the RCC.

I am not sure what you mean here. Do you mean “Peter’s faith” or do you just mean the proposition “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt. 16:16)? If you mean the proposition, then what makes it “Peter’s” rather than anyone’s? If you mean Peter’s faith overall, as you say Christ looks at it, then does not that include his taking the Church to Rome and establishing it there under his successors – who he reputedly ordained as bishops before his death? Either way, if it is Peter’s faith on which Christ’s Church is founded, then should not your question be, “Am I part of Peter’s Church? – which is still where he established it, in Rome.

No, I am not a part of Peter’s church because it is Christ’s Church that I belong to. And HIS only.

St. John should give you pause in this matter (see, 1 Jn 2:4).

Right… well, I am definitely going to have to report you to the mods on this one… I just have to say, how dare you… And this is supposed to be friendly???

4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So much for charity folks… I am done…

 

[guanophore]

So essentially according to your church, a born and raised LCMS lutheran turned evangelical fundamentalist stands no chance of salvation?

For such a person, the biggest concern would be a persistent attitude of defiant rebellion against the revealed teachings of Jesus Christ.

Essentially, according to the chuch, we are not in a position to determine who can or will be saved. We are taught to retain an attitude of humility about salvation, which is a gift of God, and can only occur by way of His mercy. We have been given certain revelation about what a person must do to be saved, and are expected to be compliant with those revelations. Other than that, we are told to allow the wheat and the tares to grow together, where the reapers will distinguish them on the last day.

Being a protestant I am considered a heretic by canon law!

Actually, you are considered a heretic by virtue of your beliefs, which are contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Canon law just states the obvious.

Being a protestant I am considered a heretic by canon law!

…furthermore…

I am not subject to the Roman Pontiff!

Actually, you are. All those that belong to Christ are. There is only One Body, One Baptism, One Church, and One Head, which is Jesus. Jesus ascended, and left Peter in charge. Peter then passed the keys to his successor, and so on. Rebelling against the pontiff is what continues to define you as a Protestant.

But I’ve been baptised and believe in the Trinity.

Where does this align?

You are like Ap’pollos, who was zealous for his faith, thought it was lacking part of the truth that Jesus revealed to the Apostles.

God can save whoever He wants, however He wants.

How so do we believe this?

What most of us believe is one thing only, outside of Christ there is no salvation.

Exactly. And Christ ordained that all those “in Him” are members of His Body, and there is only one body.

 

[guanophore]

HOW DOES THIS>>>

NOT CONTRADICT THIS>>>>>

The Church has evolved it it’s understanding of how Jesus saves people. It was thought that anyone who was not visibly Catholic could not be saved, since this is what we received from the fathers. Over the centuries since the reformation, it has become obvious that God does appear to be very active in the life of some protestants. It seems, therefore, that there are members of the Catholic church that are not visibly members . CAtholic teachings only seem black and white to people who think in black and white. These kind of rigid minded thinkers often believe there are “contradictions” between what the Church teaches, and what the Bible states, for example.

 

[guanophore]

I am not subject to the pope because I do not belong to the roman catholic church. The pope is no more important to God than any other human being. I belong to Jesus, which makes me part of HIS CHURCH.

This is false. There is only one Church. Jesus left the keys with Peter, and all who are members of Christ are also members of His One Body, which is guarded and guided by the successor of Peter.

Thats because the New Testament wasn’t written by the catholic church, the ccc was written long after the God inspired books that make up the Bible were written.

Seems like you need a little work on your family history there.
There were nothing but Catholics at the time.

 

[Calvinator]

The Church has evolved it it’s understanding of how Jesus saves people. It was thought that anyone who was not visibly Catholic could not be saved, since this is what we received from the fathers. Over the centuries since the reformation, it has become obvious that God does appear to be very active in the life of some protestants. It seems, therefore, that there are members of the Catholic church that are not visibly members . CAtholic teachings only seem black and white to people who think in black and white. These kind of rigid minded thinkers often believe there are “contradictions” between what the Church teaches, and what the Bible states, for example.

So how do you know if what the church understands as true today is actually true or not?

At one point you had a pope clearly say that Jews and pagans would be damned now it appears these folks can (or maybe more accurately may) achieve salvation.

 

[guanophore]

So your putting limits on Our Creator now?

Certainly not! God can do whatever He wants! He chose to create one church. He chose to leave Peter in charge of it. He decided that He is the conduit through which all salvation should come. “No one comes to the father, but by me”.

No I mean that restricting HIM in that HIS ONLY church is Rome.

Could this be an example of obtsinency? No one has ever said that the body of Christ exists only in Rome! It so happens that the person He left in charge is the Bishop of Rome (that was not the case when he was placed in charge, though). Peter’s first bishopric was in Antioch, long before the Roman diocese was founded.

Christ is the living God, and HIS sprit dwells in all born again believers the HS is HIS earthly vicar, any other attempt to be in the position of Christ on earth can easily be considered blasphemous.

Yes, throughout these theads, you have repeatedly considered the Apostolic Teaching blasphemous. However, that is how Jesus set it up. He said, “he who hears you, hears Me…he who rejects you, rejects Me”. This is what it means to be in the position of Christ on earth (a vicar).

1 Corinthians 3:16 - We are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in us because we are bought with a price. Everyone who has been purchased (redeemed) by the blood of Christ also has the Spirit of God dwelling in him.

Romans 8:9 - We should be led by the Spirit of God. If the Spirit of God (Christ) does not dwell in us, we do not belong to God.

Clearly the Spirit does dwell in people today. In fact, the Spirit dwells in ALL true children of God, and He begins to dwell in us at the moment we become God’s children (not at some later point).

[See also Acts 2:38; 5:32; James 4:5; Rom. 5:5; Eph. 5:18.]

No one (except you) is trying to imply that the HS does not dwell in those who are in rebellion against Christ’s appointed shepherd. Not all believers have the same duty. The duty of the successor of Peter is to feed the sheep, and protect them.

AND>>>>>
john 14:26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.
john 15:26
‘When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf.
john 16:7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Perhaps the HS led you here, so you could learn more of the truth? The HS will not reveal something that is inconsistent with prior revelation.

 

[joshua_b]

So how do you know if what the church understands as true today is actually true or not?

At one point you had a pope clearly say that Jews and pagans would be damned now it appears these folks can (or maybe more accurately may) achieve salvation.

I think we need to refocus here. The Church has NEVER claimed to know the ultimate fate of ANYONE’S eternal soul…not even Judas himself. (The only exception being the canonized saints.)

It is important to keep all things in context. Not just literary context, but social, political and historical context.

I see certain individuals grasping at straws, trying everything they can think of to discredit this whole “no salvation outside the Church”. Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is. The Church’s teaching on this is clear, it has never changed (despite the best efforts of some to show otherwise) and it is a pretty much universal doctrine…don’t most Protestant traditions pretty much say the same thing ? The only real difference between the Catholic and non-Catholic position on this matter is how they define “Church” (and really that isn’t all that different either).

Another poster on this forum has a signature line that I think really applies here. “There are some who will not accept anything, not even Christ, from the Catholic Church.”

 

[guanophore]

I think protestants who believe the church is the whore of babylon and the pope antichrist will end up in hell…because they consciously reject the church…The one who are ignorant of the Catholic Church are the ones who have possible salvation…because of ignorance,

I think those beliefs are the epitome of ignorance! Such persons do not hold those beliefs because they know anything about Catholicism. They have been taught errors, and are reacting not against what the Church really is, but what they have been falsly taught.

 

[guanophore]

So if the magisterium knows everything God has revealed, then why is it that the HS indwells in all born again believers??

I guess you are hearkening back to your previous post, where you note that the HS will lead one into all truth, and now you are comparing that with the fact that God has revealed His truth to the Apostles (and their successors). Again, the two are not in conflict with each other!

Rom 8:16-17
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

That same spirit is the one that calls you to be in unity, to have ONE mind, and one heart. Anyone who listens to the witness of the HS within will be inclined toward unity. That spirit will patiently guide one to the authority that Christ has appointed.

2 Peter 2:8-10
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority."

Back to the topic…
I understand yet refuse to submit to ROME.

You do not, mfm. If you really understood, then you would accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Since you don’t accep that, you must not understand. You seem to accept Christ as your Head, so what appears to be lacking in your understanding is how He structured the authority before He ascended.

I believe faith alone in Christ alone will be lead me to salvation.
Do I qualify for NO salvation outside the “Catholic Church” as one of your pontiffs stated?

Only God can be the judge of whether you are saved, mfm. It is He who qualifies. All we can do here is share with you the truth that He has revealed to us. If you are “in Christ”, then you are in His body, and His body is the church, so that must make you Catholic!

Sure are alot of Minnesotans on here, I thought that was Luthers territory.

Belief in Christ death and Resurrection…Making Christ the LORD of your life is salvation.

Did you know that Luther believed that the elements become the Body and Blood of Jesus during the Mass? Did you know he was devoted to the Blessed Mother and prayed his rosary every day? How far the Lutherans have even strayed!

 

[Calvinator]

I think we need to refocus here. The Church has NEVER claimed to know the ultimate fate of ANYONE’S eternal soul…not even Judas himself. (The only exception being the canonized saints.)

It is important to keep all things in context. Not just literary context, but social, political and historical context.

I see certain individuals grasping at straws, trying everything they can think of to discredit this whole “no salvation outside the Church”. Personally, I don’t see what the big deal is. The Church’s teaching on this is clear, it has never changed (despite the best efforts of some to show otherwise) and it is a pretty much universal doctrine…don’t most Protestant traditions pretty much say the same thing ? The only real difference between the Catholic and non-Catholic position on this matter is how they define “Church” (and really that isn’t all that different either).

Another poster on this forum has a signature line that I think really applies here. “There are some who will not accept anything, not even Christ, from the Catholic Church.”

Unfortunately I am very time limited here, but most certainly your church has taught, perhaps not ex cathedra but taught nonetheless that Jews and pagans among others will not receive salvation. I’ll try to post the bull or council soon.

 

[John_Hiner]

LOL! It’s funny how you mention “a Protestant” and then a " ‘Good’ Catholic." As if no Protestant or non-Catholic is good. I understand what you’re saying, and agree on how the Catholic views the world, others, and the Church, but HOW can you honestly sit back and tell me that no non-Catholic, or no Protestant doesn’t truly care for others? That people are just “instruments” to non-Catholics. I can tell you that that’s NOT how I viewed others when I was Protestant. I viewed everyone as human beings created in God’s image, I wept for people who knew not Christ, praying that they would one day be saved, I treated everyone the same and always desired for everyone to be a family, and work together in union and love in God Almighty. I didn’t view another person as merely an instrument…

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “The Catholic”:

Thanks for your comments. I was using “good Catholic” in the “technical” sense; in an older American Catholic usage a “Catholic” was “a person baptized in the Catholic Church who had not left the Church or professed another religion”; a “good Catholic” was defined as “a Catholic who practices the Faith.” (I have often thought that this is a sensible and needed distinction.)

Using “Catholic” in this venerable American sense, if one compares a Catholic and a Protestant, as Vatican II (see, Lumen Gentium, 15) invites us to do, one can see a very close parallel. However, if one considers “good Catholics,” the difference becomes starker as sanctity increases.

It is not surprising that a convert to the Faith would report little initial difference between his experience of others as a Protestant and his experience as a new Catholic. However, if conversion continues, and one allows the doctrines of the Church to seep more and more deeply into one’s understanding, will, and feelings, through the Liturgy, study, and other spiritual practices, then one would expect the quality and depth of love to change, to grow deeper and richer, as it approaches the quality of love as Christ loved; this is one of the gifts offered by the Liturgy to those who seek it.

It is the extreme difficulty of this challenge and one’s perpetual falling short, which make frequent confession and absolution so integral a part of the Liturgy. I suspect that all of us can look forward to great delight, as our love deepens. What we think we do well enough now is likely to look like crass selfishness, once we turn the appropriate corner in our conversion to the true imitation of Christ.

Consider the piercing insight into the heart of people displayed by Padre Pio and Mother Teresa of Calcutta. How much closer did they come to the piercing understanding and intimate knowledge of people which Christ exhibits in the Gospels than I offer as “compassion” or “understanding” even to my closest friends?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner