Over everyone's head...

  • Thread starter Thread starter inJESUS
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Fine Amy, but when you say that i am wrong, or that it is over everyone’s head, then be ready to explain how, specifically after many posters had given similar replies about the quote and similar comments about your inability to discuss this theological argument.
 
inJESUS said:
Fine Amy, but when you say that i am wrong, or that it is over everyone’s head, then be ready to explain how, specifically after many posters had given similar replies about the quote and similar comments about your inability to discuss this theological argument.
Click to expand...
First of all, neither you nor they are equipped to engage in this “theological argument.” It’s kind of like flipping to the last chapter of a calculus book when you’re struggling with algebra.
 
Sister_Amy said:
From Al-Aqidah Al-Wasitiyah - Ibn Taymiyah

Part of the belief in Allah and His Books28 is the belief that the Qur’an is Allah’s Word revealed,not created29, **that in Him it originated and unto Him it returns, that Allah truly uttered it, that this Qur’an which He revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) is truly the Word of Allah not the word of any other, that it is not allowable to say it is a narrative of the Word of Allah or an interpretation of it. **That if the people read it or write it in books does not mean it is not the true Word of Allah, The Exalted, because **speech is attributed to the one who spoke it initially, not to the one who narrated it. **It is the Word of Allah, its letters and its meaning. The Word of Allah is not the words only, without meaning, and not the meaning only, without words.
  1. Allah’s Books are: The Books which He revealed, namely; The Torah (at-Tawrah), The Gospel (al-Injil) and the Qur’an.
  2. Here Ibn Taimiyah is responding to the Mu’tazilah who claimed that the Qur’an is created.
And I maintain that it’s over your head. In order for it to make any sense, one would have to have studied Islamic Aqeedah in the first place. There is absolutely no concept of this in Christianity, and the attempt to restate it implying Jesus as Word is false and misleading, completely foreign to the explanation or analysis of
Imam Abu Hanifah, Ibn Taymiyyah, or any other respected scholar of Islam. Wallahu Alam.
Click to expand...
Hum! On one side, there is God’s Word. On the other side, you have people trying to understand it and explain it.
Also, sometimes God says one thing and some people, from the same one thing, understand two, three or even more things…
And sometimes God would say one thing and there would be additions to it.
Not an easy thing to simply just say the word that God has said and nothing else…
Also, how to tell the authentic locutions from your God and from the ones that seem to come from Him but don’t?
But now on how to view God and Jesus, both Islam and the Christian faith have a big ocean between their views, and there seems to be no bridge possible there. So you Muslims can tell us about your faith and we could maybe accept some of what you tell us “this far and no further”; same when we of the Christian faith (whether Catholic or non-Catholic Christians) would try to tell you what we believe…
 
Sister_Amy said:
First of all, neither you nor they are equipped to engage in this “theological argument.” It’s kind of like flipping to the last chapter of a calculus book when you’re struggling with algebra.
Click to expand...
something you still have to prove Amy . My question is very easy actually. Islam believes the Quran is uncreated and eternal. Agree or not?

if you agree, does this make the Quran another eternal entity/person/thing beside Allah?

These are simple questions i guess.
 
inJESUS said:
something you still have to prove Amy . My question is very easy actually. Islam believes the Quran is uncreated and eternal. Agree or not?

if you agree, does this make the Quran another eternal entity/person/thing beside Allah?

These are simple questions i guess.
Click to expand...
🤷 Simple or not, doesn’t mean I have to answer. 🙂

I said I didn’t want to discuss it.
 
So, as much as what Islam teaches is “over our (Christian)heads”, I am sure that what our Christian faith teaches is also way over the Muslims’ heads. So, unless one of either side is open to reexamine what his/her faith is made of, well… as far as “mutual” theology is concerned, it will remain a dead end…
Which is why we should put the emphasis on what we have in common if we are to go somewhere together…
 
Lapell said:
So, as much as what Islam teaches is “over our (Christian)heads”, I am sure that what our Christian faith teaches is also way over the Muslims’ heads. So, unless one of either side is open to reexamine what his/her faith is made of, well… as far as “mutual” theology is concerned, it will remain a dead end…
Which is why we should put the emphasis on what we have in common if we are to go somewhere together…
Click to expand...
Hi there. I just wanted to correct one thing, I don’t think that the teachings of Islam are in general complex or over any one’s head, be he Christian, Muslim, atheist, or anything else. Overall I think they are pretty simple.

But the particular teaching in question is something else, which is an argument I think should be reserved for scholars and not laypeople (like myself.) If you pick up a book on the Islamic creed (like the paper I quoted by Ibn Taymiyyah) the subject which inJESUS has brought up bears only a small and hardly significant mention. It is neither a foundation of Islam nor a subject essential to understanding Islam or the Islamic creed.

So I gave the example of the last chapter in a calculus book. And so it is, almost a footnote or extra detail, only included because of the early dispute about it (which was btw generations after Muhammad). But it doesn’t follow that a person can understand this final abstract detail without understanding the more foundational principles of Islam creed.

I don’t think it’s impossible or difficult to understand them, either. I just don’t think anyone here has studied them in the first place. And reading something on the internet isn’t even close to the study required on this topic.

No offense. 🤷
 
Sister_Amy said:
🤷 Simple or not, doesn’t mean I have to answer. 🙂

I said I didn’t want to discuss it.
Click to expand...
it’s no longer about laymen v/s scholars Amy cuz am not even discussing the quote anymore.🙂 Am asking simple questions that you already believe in …do you think that, as a Muslim, you are unable to adress these theological answers that you already believe in even if they are no major tenents of Islam?
 
This posting sums up the doctrine of the massive majority of the Muslims, namely the People of the Sunna and the Congregation, concerning the pre-existent, pre-eternal, beginningless, and uncreated nature of the Divine Speech Allah Most High has named al-Qur’an, as held by the Salaf al-Salihun and as formulated by the two Masters, Imam Abu al-Hasan al-Ash`ari and Imam Abu Mansur al-Maturidi and their respective schools.

Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that **the Qur’an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah **Most High on the evidence of the Qur’an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason.

Imam Malik gave the most succint statement of this doctrine:

“The Qur’an is the Speech of Allah, the Speech of Allah comes from Him, and nothing created comes from Allah Most High.” Narrated by al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala’ (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:416).

“The Qur’an is read by tongues, written in books, and remembered in the heart, yet it is, nevertheless, uncreated and without beginning, subsisting in the Essence of Allah, not subject to division and or separation through its transmission to the heart and paper. Musa - upon him peace - heard the Speech of Allah without sound and without letter, just as the righteous see the Essence of Allah Most High in the Hereafter, without substance or its quality.” End of al-Ghazzali’s words.

No doubt, the Quran or the Word of Allah is uncreated and eternal. So i answered my first question Amy 🙂 my second question is : are we talking about 2 different eternal things or about one Allah?

Is this too hard for you Amy? can’t you even try to give your opinion?🙂
 
Sister_Amy said:
First of all, neither you nor they are equipped to engage in this “theological argument.” It’s kind of like flipping to the last chapter of a calculus book when you’re struggling with algebra.
Click to expand...
It’s OK. If anyone is really interested in the topic, they’ll ask a more qualified Muslim. No sweat.
 
inJESUS said:
it’s no longer about laymen v/s scholars Amy cuz am not even discussing the quote anymore.🙂 Am asking simple questions that you already believe in …do you think that, as a Muslim, you are unable to adress these theological answers that you already believe in even if they are no major tenents of Islam?
Click to expand...
I can give you answers, like “yes” and “no,” but since I don’t want to keep going or hear your rebuttal, why bother?
 
inJESUS said:
No doubt, the Quran or the Word of Allah is uncreated and eternal. So i answered my first question Amy 🙂 my second question is : are we talking about 2 different eternal things or about one Allah?

Is this too hard for you Amy? can’t you even try to give your opinion?🙂
Click to expand...
Aw, come on. You’ve quoted the “opinion” of Imam Abu Hanifa, the “opinion” of Imam Malik, the “opinion” of the Ash’ari school and the Mutaridi school, and I even quoted for you the “opinion” of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah. You can go find the “opinions” of Imam Ash-Shafi’i and Imam Ahmad and have a full set!!

Seriously, beside their opinions why does mine even matter?
 
Sister_Amy said:
Aw, come on. You’ve quoted the “opinion” of Imam Abu Hanifa, the “opinion” of Imam Malik, the “opinion” of the Ash’ari school and the Mutaridi school, and I even quoted for you the “opinion” of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah. You can go find the “opinions” of Imam Ash-Shafi’i and Imam Ahmad and have a full set!!

Seriously, beside their opinions why does mine even matter?
Click to expand...
Now you are finally admitting that none of those Imams thought stating opinions about that certain creed would be over everyone’s head! 😉
 
Sister_Amy said:
Seriously, beside their opinions why does mine even matter?
Click to expand...
actually i was not asking your opinion on whether the belief is correct or not since you are Sunni. I was asking you if this belief leads to polytheism or not and a simple answer of yes or no would do perfectly. Since of course you do not believe it leads to polytheism, then maybe finally you and other Muslims will finally start thinking theologically and be put on the right path regarding Christian theology of the Trinity instead of the Quranic misrepresentation about the Trinity being about partners and 3 gods and Mary and what have you of things that have nothing to do with the Trinity and which confuses every single Muslim’s mind.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Don’t hold your breath.
Click to expand...
Am not Amy 🙂 it is clear to everyone that you do not want to discuss the subject, and people are intelligent enough to know the reason. Whenever the Trinity is attacked by Muslims as being polytheism, 3 partners, Mary and what have you of wrong Quranic verses, i will show them this thread in which not one single Muslim even attempted to answer…not even Amy the zealous Muslim who knows every single detail about what to wear and how to kneel and how to wash yourself but who is silent when it comes to real discussions.😉
 
inJESUS said:
Am not Amy 🙂 it is clear to everyone that you do not want to discuss the subject, and people are intelligent enough to know the reason. Whenever the Trinity is attacked by Muslims as being polytheism, 3 partners, Mary and what have you of wrong Quranic verses, i will show them this thread in which not one single Muslim even attempted to answer…not even Amy the zealous Muslim who knows every single detail about what to wear and how to kneel and how to wash yourself but who is silent when it comes to real discussions.😉
Click to expand...
🤷 You’re trying to badger me into it. I don’t know every detail of anything at all. But I do think what to wear and how to pray and wash yourself are a bit more relevant. That’s stuff I do every single day. It’s useful to know how.

But abstract theological debates? Not so important to me. 🤷
 
Nevermind Amy 🙂 i’m not trying to do anything. Whenever am discussing this idea, quoting the above mentioned quotes are more than enough…i wanted you to SEE them so that you understand what we are talking about, but i cannot let you see if your interest does not go beyond what you can do everyday.
 
inJESUS said:
Nevermind Amy 🙂 i’m not trying to do anything. Whenever am discussing this idea, quoting the above mentioned quotes are more than enough…i wanted you to SEE them so that you understand what we are talking about, but i cannot let you see if your interest does not go beyond what you can do everyday.
Click to expand...
🤷 You’re not going to be able to convince any Muslim with any background in aqeedah that Islam actually teaches that the Qur’an is an entity, because it doesn’t. You’re also not going to be able to convince any Muslim with any background in aqeedah that Islam teaches a concept analogous to the trinity, because it doesn’t. Nor will you be able to convince any Muslim that there is anything other than aboslute monotheism in Islam, with Allah being ahad, and wahid.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top