Over everyone's head...

[Angelos]

You’re not going to be able to convince any Muslim with any background in aqeedah that Islam actually teaches that the Qur’an is an entity, because it doesn’t. You’re also not going to be able to convince any Muslim with any background in aqeedah that Islam teaches a concept analogous to the trinity, because it doesn’t. Nor will you be able to convince any Muslim that there is anything other than aboslute monotheism in Islam, with Allah being ahad, and wahid.

However, the remnant of this discussion is the fact that some Muslims believed the Islamic Scripture - the Koran - to be the uncreated and eternal word of Allah and Allah Himself without undermining or refuting the so-called absolute monotheism in Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

However, the remnant of this discussion is the fact that some Muslims believed the Islamic Scripture - the Koran - to be the uncreated and eternal word of Allah and Allah Himself without undermining or refuting the so-called absolute monotheism in Islam.

exactly

 

[inJESUS]

You’re not going to be able to convince any Muslim with any background in aqeedah that Islam actually teaches that the Qur’an is an entity, because it doesn’t.

i do not have a problem with words. You can choose any word to describe it. Since the Quran is eternal and uncreated, is the Quran Allah? you answer no, so the Quran is a thing/idea/concept/entity that is not Allah. But is this eternal thing/idea/concept/entity different from Allah? if you say yes, it is shirk.

see i can use my argument using any word you want to explain things.

You’re also not going to be able to convince any Muslim with any background in aqeedah that Islam teaches a concept analogous to the trinity, because it doesn’t.

 

[Booklover]

i do not have a problem with words. You can choose any word to describe it. Since the Quran is eternal and uncreated, is the Quran Allah? you answer no, so the Quran is a thing/idea/concept/entity that is not Allah. But is this eternal thing/idea/concept/entity different from Allah? if you say yes, it is shirk.

see i can use my argument using any word you want to explain things.

something you still have to prove but since you don’t want, why still claim it?

your scholars had no problem saying the Quran is Allah yet not Allah…the Quran is created and eternal,they did not see it as contradicting monotheism.

 

[Lapell]

However, the remnant of this discussion is the fact that some Muslims believed the Islamic Scripture - the Koran - to be the uncreated and eternal word of Allah and Allah Himself without undermining or refuting the so-called absolute monotheism in Islam.

So, if I understand you well, you’re asking our Muslim friends, or at least Sister Amy, if by telling us the Qor’an is the uncreated and eternal word of Allah they could not consider their Qor’an to be God since like God the Qor’an is (according to the scholars that inJesus quoted) uncreated and eternal as the Word of God… Is that it?

 

[Lapell]

I hope the Muslim scholars were and are able to explain how the Word of Allah, uncreated and eternal, cannot be God…
We were created, but the Word of God was not!

 

[Lapell]

I’d wish some Muslim scholars would intervene here and give us some answers. However I think they don’t go to Catholic fora anyway…

 

[inJESUS]

I hope the Muslim scholars were and are able to explain how the Word of Allah, uncreated and eternal, cannot be God…
We were created, but the Word of God was not!

re-read my first quote. It says clearly the Quran is the Word of Allah, uncreated, Not He yet NOT other than He. If they say the Word of God is uncreated and is not Allah, they will be committing shirk .

 

[Lapell]

re-read my first quote. It says clearly the Quran is the Word of Allah, uncreated, Not He yet NOT other than He. If they say the Word of God is uncreated and is not Allah, they will be committing shirk .

I find this very interesting, inJesus. I wish some Muslim scholars would agree to examine this thought and tell us what they think from this, although I doubt they would discuss it on a CA thread! (oh, I wish someone among them would prove me wrong about my doubt )

 

[Lapell]

I hope the Muslim scholars were and are able to explain how the Word of Allah, uncreated and eternal, cannot be God…
We were created, but the Word of God was not!

Maybe this sentence was not accurate as to what I meant? My post right after this quote might have stated more clearly what I meant…

 

[inJESUS]

I think i understood your posts Lapell

 

[Lapell]

I think i understood your posts Lapell

Good then!

 

[Angelos]

So, if I understand you well, you’re asking our Muslim friends, or at least Sister Amy, if by telling us the Qor’an is the uncreated and eternal word of Allah they could not consider their Qor’an to be God since like God the Qor’an is (according to the scholars that inJesus quoted) uncreated and eternal as the Word of God… Is that it?

I am simply reminding Sister Amy and other Muslims here that a certain group of Islamic faith believed the Koran to be uncreated and fully divine in nature without undermining monotheism. We Christians do the same when we call Jesus the Word and Son of God equal to Him yet a distinct divine person in Godhead.

 

[Lapell]

It’s O.K. by me, Angelos… although I do believe you and inJesus could post this interesting question to actual Muslim scholars, maybe even on an Islamic website if there were one in English or another language you can fluently use. If it were feasable I certainly would encourage you.

 

[inJESUS]

Good idea Lapell but i do not want to register in an Islamic forum in order to ask my question. If i can ask it without registering, i have no problem of course

 

[Lapell]

Good idea Lapell but i do not want to register in an Islamic forum in order to ask my question. If i can ask it without registering, i have no problem of course

That’s part of what “if it were feasable” covers, in fact!

 

[inJESUS]

That’s part of what “if it were feasable” covers, in fact!

sorry i don’t understand what you mean. I tried to post the question on one site but they said i must wait for Monday. I’ll try another one though its late in here and i got to sleep ( if i manage among the bullets and bombs i hear )

 

[inJESUS]

Oh see, another site wanted me to register i give up for tonight…try tomorrow inshallah…

 

[Ronald_E]

Taken from the thread: “Trinity and Islam”

Sister Amy says:

It’s also over your head, and over the heads of everyone else on the forum ( to argue/comprehend the following Islamic quote):

We confess that the Kuran is the speech of Allah, uncreated, His inspiration and revelation, not He, yet not other than He, but His real quality, written in the copies, recited by the tongues, preserved in the breasts, yet not residing there. The ink, the paper, the writing are created, for they are the work of men.

What is in the Kuran is an impression of Allah that becomes the believer’s impression passed through generations. The words used to describe Allah fall short of being Allah but are believed to be Allah as He exists in human expression and thus being limited to human limitations. The truth of Allah is different from the human expression of the truth of Allah yet the truth remains to be known within the human being.

The speech of Allah on the other hand is uncreated, for the writing and the letters and the words and the verses are manifestations of the Kuran for the sake of human needs.

Human beings create Allah’s truth into what they may need to exist in the world.

The speech of Allah on the other hand is self-existing, and its meaning is understood by means of these things. Whoso sayeth that the speech of Allah is created, he is an infidel regarding Allah, the Exalted, whom men serve, who is eternally the same, His speech being recited or written and retained in the heart, yet never dissociated from Him.

Truth always has existed and is understood according to the interpretation and writing of men. To be truly understood we have to understand the heart that is vulnerable and not protected in any way. The heart cannot be hardened to know the speech or truth that has always existed but has never been put into words until the creation of human beings.

I took a shot at it but there is too much to say about this from my tired heart at the end of the day.

What do others think about this quote? what do you think it means?

 

[Eden]

In case anyone wants to reference Sam Shamoun’s work on the eternal entitity, the Quran, here it is:

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/eternal_quran.htm