Overpopulation and the right to have children

[InJesusItrust]

What leads you to believe that we’re not at carrying capacity?

How about that some people believe that being disconnected from the internet is a weighty problem and others have to worry about starvation?

 

[InJesusItrust]

Imagine and island with enough resources to support about 40 people. Over populate the island with 200 people. Do you think the island will remain overpopulated?

But earth’s ecosystem is more diverse than an island’s.

If natives lopping off heads out of fear of wrath of their gods is wrong, why is educated people lopping off heads for fear of Global Warming right?

 

[tonyrey]

Father Bill Casey was preaching our parish mission last week he said “I got a great joke… you can tell it to God and He will surely chuckle.” He said “Just tell Him your plans.”

I think that “population control” in general is planning… not leaving it to God to handle His business. He is in charge, we have to have faith that He has the reigns. Sure we may educate our population but it comes down to the individual and how they will live their life. Until all individuals are going to take responsibility for their actions we are dead in the water.

My biggest argument to people who challenge me on the abortion issue is “I agree you do have a choice. Keep it in your pants.” It is that personal responsibility, self control, discernment… these should be stressed.

What is the solution when many individuals fail to take responsibility?

 

[GEddie]

But earth’s ecosystem is more diverse than an island’s.

If natives lopping off heads out of fear of wrath of their gods is wrong, why is educated people lopping off heads for fear of Global Warming right?

Who is suggesting to lop off heads??

 

[epan]

There is no overpopulation problem. Don’t believe the lie.

There is a starvation problem. Do you think it might be related to population? I can’t personally imagine what it is like to starve to death. Thankfully.

 

[GEddie]

There is a starvation problem. Do you think it might be related to population? I can’t personally imagine what it is like to starve to death. Thankfully.

The two might be connected, but not necessarily. The earth is a big place, and food can be wasted in one area when needed elsewhere.

In the 1984 Ethiopian famine, when the West responded in the massive “We are the World” relief effort, food rotted on transport ramps because governmental breakdown prevented transportation.

Since 1800, the world P has increased several times. Informational transfer has done the same, so we are now more aware of world poverty than in earlier times. But the 2 conditions are not proven to be even connected, let alone causally related.

ICXC NIKA

 

[jonathan_hili]

By not raising issue on the question begging fallacy of overpopulation we are forced into needless corner. Anyone who has though hard about it would link it to Malthus, Darwin and Eugenics. Population control in practice is politically correct eugenics.

dictionary.reference.com/etymology/eugenics

Heck we can call it the outcome of the contraceptive mentality. We want to eliminate poor people with qualitatively “less worthy” lives because we have convinced ourselves of artificial limits. Wouldn’t nature automatically kill us off if we reached such a limit? Then why are we taking the matter into our own hands?

Hi, I’m not sure how nature would automatically kill us, especially now since we have such technological and scientific control over our environment. I mean, considering the possibility of extending people’s lifespan, it is a feasible future outcome that we could face an overpopulation problem. Now, I’m not saying don’t question the current hysteria over the issue, but we should also spend time developing moral answers to the question.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I give up. Anyone else want to jump in here?

Sure…

ZRO X, the pope doesn’t have to infallibly state that abortion is an evil and deliberately enacting one, a grave sin. It has been the universal teaching of the ordinary magisterium since the beginning of the Church. See Chapter 2 of the Didache, for instance, or else any writing from the Church Fathers on this issue.

Indeed, throughout Christian history, until only recently, the wrongness of abortion has been unquestioned. Even great theologians like Aquinas, who were not certain that a foetus in its earliest days was a person, opposed abortion.

ZRO X, you shouldn’t expect the pope in infallibly pronounce upon everything in the faith, or else hold the view that if this isn’t done, then whatever the judgement is, it isn’t binding on Catholics.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Clearly we as Catholics have no right (or capacity) to force our beliefs on others. That was not my point.

You asked, whether something should not be done to limit population in advance of a possible future famine. My question is whether any form of population control, as such, is acceptable in the Faith. ISTM that answer would be no.

We cannot force our beliefs on others, but neither have we the right to encourage others (or the civil state) to actions we believe to be wrong, whatever the future may or may not hold.

ICXC NIKA

Hi GEddie, I’m not sure that no form of population control is acceptable to the Catholic faith. Why couldn’t NFP and periodic abstinence be effectively used by couples to do so? In fact, this would probably be a moral (since there is a grave reason not to have many children) and non-compulsive (since governments could hardly force spouses to use NFP or be abstinent) means of achieving a desired end.

Of course, this is not a feasible option in the foreseable future as both Catholics and non-Catholics alike in most countries do not practice NFP (and abstinence) regularly and use artificial contraception instead.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Father Bill Casey was preaching our parish mission last week he said “I got a great joke… you can tell it to God and He will surely chuckle.” He said “Just tell Him your plans.”

I think that “population control” in general is planning… not leaving it to God to handle His business. He is in charge, we have to have faith that He has the reigns. Sure we may educate our population but it comes down to the individual and how they will live their life. Until all individuals are going to take responsibility for their actions we are dead in the water.

My biggest argument to people who challenge me on the abortion issue is “I agree you do have a choice. Keep it in your pants.” It is that personal responsibility, self control, discernment… these should be stressed.

Hi Son Searcher, I agree that personal responsibility needs to be heavily focused on in public education, but “population control” isn’t necessarily bad in itself. It can also involve moving populations of people to inhabit areas that aren’t densely populated and morally limiting the amount of children a couple has can be sensible too. While we certainly have to have faith in God, at the same time governments have responsibilities to properly care for the people they serve. Imagine no state planning went into agriculture, infrastructure, etc. but everyone just said, “Oh, let’s leave it to God”, I doubt the result would be very beneficial. God gave us both an intellect and a conscience, and I don’t see what the problem is in putting them to work together.

 

[GEddie]

Hi Son Searcher, I agree that personal responsibility needs to be heavily focused on in public education, but “population control” isn’t necessarily bad in itself. It can also involve moving populations of people to inhabit areas that aren’t densely populated and morally limiting the amount of children a couple has can be sensible too. While we certainly have to have faith in God, at the same time governments have responsibilities to properly care for the people they serve. Imagine no state planning went into agriculture, infrastructure, etc. but everyone just said, “Oh, let’s leave it to God”, I doubt the result would be very beneficial. God gave us both an intellect and a conscience, and I don’t see what the problem is in putting them to work together.

1. Places that aren’t densely populated are often so for a reason; those square miles are either unsuitable for settlement or needed for forest, farmland, etc. Moving people to these areas would make matters worse. Dense population is not a priori a bad thing; rents are high at NYC BECAUSE people want to live there.
2. I think we need to define “population control”. To me, this means a coercive scheme as implemented in the PRC. I don’t think anyone on the thread really wants that. Nor can it be squared with Church teaching, IIUC.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Pugsly]

What leads you to believe that we’re not at carrying capacity?

Answer…God…(God said to Noah in Genesis 8:22)

22 “Never again, as long as the earth exists,

will sowing and harvest,

cold and heat,

summer and winter,

and day and night ever cease.”

The expression “sowing and harvest” imply a few things…such as…the Earth’s will not become unproductive…that normal patterns of growth will continue,

The philosophy of the world is fear-based…and those who rule by it will manipulate people’s fears…example…Has President Obama ever left “crisis mode”?

The Left constantly accused President Bush of manipulating a major crisis as a ruse for an unconstitutional power grab…then shortly thereafter…when the Left came to power in America…we see manipulation of pretend crisis…the world ending banking crisis…global warming…health care…gun violence…fiscal cliffs…sequestration…etc…etc.
Top Obama advisor…in January of 2009…“Never let a crisis go to waste”.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Who is suggesting to lop off heads??

Figurative language for sterilizing the poor. Everyone seems to ignore the article I posted at the beginning of this thread that makes clear the evil of population control.

 

[SonSearcher]

What is the solution when many individuals fail to take responsibility?

Prayer and trust in God.

 

[SonSearcher]

Hi Son Searcher, I agree that personal responsibility needs to be heavily focused on in public education, but “population control” isn’t necessarily bad in itself. It can also involve moving populations of people to inhabit areas that aren’t densely populated and morally limiting the amount of children a couple has can be sensible too. While we certainly have to have faith in God, at the same time governments have responsibilities to properly care for the people they serve. Imagine no state planning went into agriculture, infrastructure, etc. but everyone just said, “Oh, let’s leave it to God”, I doubt the result would be very beneficial. God gave us both an intellect and a conscience, and I don’t see what the problem is in putting them to work together.

Good point about the moving of populations. I of course am only intending to disagree with the posters that are arguing for contraception and abortion as a means to “control population.”

Further though I would be afraid of a government that has the power to move people. Think about the Soviet Union or even the US and the Japanese population during WWII.

 

[ericc]

but the law only applies if a Fetus really is a human being

but does the church state this infallibly?

also, some contraceptives attempt to prevent conception, rather than implantation.

Really? have to admit, that’s pretty cool.

Do you think a fetus is NOT a human being? At what stage does it change from a nonhuman being to a human being? Upon birth or some other arbitrary milestone determined by doctors who without blinking terminate pregnancies at will? God said he knew us when we were still in the womb. Heck, he knew us even before we were conceived because he is outside of time.

 

[zro_x]

Sure…

ZRO X, the pope doesn’t have to infallibly state that abortion is an evil and deliberately enacting one, a grave sin. It has been the universal teaching of the ordinary magisterium since the beginning of the Church. See Chapter 2 of the Didache, for instance, or else any writing from the Church Fathers on this issue.

Indeed, throughout Christian history, until only recently, the wrongness of abortion has been unquestioned. Even great theologians like Aquinas, who were not certain that a foetus in its earliest days was a person, opposed abortion.

The teachings of the church that are subject to fallibility have been wrong before. Limbo and Anslem’s “Chain of being” are two examples.

ZRO X, you shouldn’t expect the pope in infallibly pronounce upon everything in the faith, or else hold the view that if this isn’t done, then whatever the judgement is, it isn’t binding on Catholics.

Oh, its binding on Catholics all right. That is to say, every Catholic should act on current church teaching. However, if that teaching is subject to fallibility, we should question it even as we follow it.

 

[mymamamary]

There is a starvation problem. Do you think it might be related to population? I can’t personally imagine what it is like to starve to death. Thankfully.

America alone could probably feed the world. Just take a look around at how much food the average Western person wastes. Its terrible. We throw so much food out while other people are starving.

 

[zro_x]

Do you think a fetus is NOT a human being?

I really don’t know whether it is or isn’t.

At what stage does it change from a nonhuman being to a human being? Upon birth or some other arbitrary milestone determined by doctors who without blinking terminate pregnancies at will?

I don’t know. Maybe when parent egg cells undergo meiosis. Maybe when the fetus has a functioning brain. Maybe when it is born. maybe when it is baptised. I really have no idea, but conception is just as arbitrary as any of these other points (except baptism; that actually contains a spiritual component. not to say that I think that Babies are ensouled then, just that it is an intrigueing possibility).

God said he knew us when we were still in the womb.

hmm. good point…

Heck, he knew us even before we were conceived because he is outside of time.

…which is completely nuetralized by this other good point. Because God is outside time, he knew us before our parents were concieved. This bible quote says nothing about when we become ensouled.

I want to make clear, however, that I am not advocating abortion in case the world become overpopulated. It is possible that Fetuses are human beings, and we don’t want to run the risk of killing anyone. Rather, I am advocating a course of action that may seem to some to be even more radical: In the case of overpopulation, people should be sterilized after a couple has a particular number of children. That’s all people, InjesusItrust, not just the poor.

aaand here come the nazi references.

 

[SonSearcher]

I really don’t know whether it is or isn’t.

I don’t know. Maybe when parent egg cells undergo meiosis. Maybe when the fetus has a functioning brain. Maybe when it is born. maybe when it is baptised. I really have no idea, but conception is just as arbitrary as any of these other points (except baptism; that actually contains a spiritual component. not to say that I think that Babies are ensouled then, just that it is an intrigueing possibility).

hmm. good point…

…which is completely nuetralized by this other good point. Because God is outside time, he knew us before our parents were concieved. This bible quote says nothing about when we become ensouled.

I want to make clear, however, that I am not advocating abortion in case the world become overpopulated. It is possible that Fetuses are human beings, and we don’t want to run the risk of killing anyone. Rather, I am advocating a course of action that may seem to some to be even more radical: In the case of overpopulation, people should be sterilized after a couple has a particular number of children. That’s all people, InjesusItrust, not just the poor.

aaand here come the nazi references.

At the moment of conception life begins. No other moment can define life any further. The divine spark, if you argue otherwise you are doing the devil’s bidding. If we start to define life beginning at certain points (but different) then it becomes subjective and that is where there is all this gray area. God wills life from the moment of conception, his will is be pregnant now, bang… at that moment life.