Overpopulation fears are a hoax

[Regular_Atheist]

Giving away food for free isn’t difficult, but how would the farm ensure that “the maintenance of the farm would be provided to the farm from elsewhere without having to be paid for or any act of exchange taking place”?

First of all it is important to understand that Marxism is a social critique. Communism is not the blueprint for a new society, it is only the negation of the current one, the abolition of all that currently exists. I can’t give you the minute details of a new society. I can only infer how communism will be based on how our current society is, in that communism will be what capitalism isn’t.

Under communism all members of society could finally engage in a rational plan of production. This doesn’t mean there would be a planned economy in the Stalinist sense, only that people would literally be able to consciously plan how things are produced, rather than it being dictated by abstract economic laws as it currently is. Society would be able to plan what the farm needs in terms of resources to keep it productive. Perhaps those involved in the production of food and maintenance of the farm could keep an account of what they need and remain in contact with those who could distribute the goods for them. Those goods would then be provided for free.

If capitalism cannot be resisted until after capitalism ceases to exist, then why do you think that you have the power to resist capitalism? It exists. Therefore, you cannot resist it. It determines your consciousness. Therefore, you are merely spouting capitalist propaganda.

I didn’t say it’s impossible to break with capitalism while it exists. I said capitalism can only be broken with collectively, when members of the proletariat revolt against their inhuman consciousness under capitalism and stop the reproduction of the capital-labour relation.

I didn’t say that they would be isolated from one another. How did you reach a conclusion about isolation?

I did not mean they were isolated in the normal sense. They would be isolated in terms of their social production - they would produce on their own private plots of land and would have no direct association with each other. They would own their own land and their own produce. As a result, they would have no choice but to exchange their own produce for the produce of others. It is from this set-up that commodity production arises, the existence of individual producers or groups of producers producing in isolation from one another.

How? Suppose you happen to have the strange desire to gather bananas from Iceland and fly them back to the tropical countries where they are grown. If that’s what you want to do, then who is going to help you, and what makes you think that “it needs doing”?

Well obviously I will be limited by the physical possibility of doing something and my own personal abilities. I cannot fly a plane and I cannot travel around the world with bananas on my own. However, if society needed bananas to be delivered to a certain place that could be organized.

 

[frobert]

You were talking about percentages of the world population and all that.

I still don’t understand your point.

How many billions are living on $2–3/day?

1. 
   *]Nearly 1/2 of the world’s population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty — less than $1.25 a day.
   *]1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.
   *]805 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat. Food banks are especially important in providing food for people that can’t afford it themselves. Run a food drive outside your local grocery store so people in your community have enough to eat. Sign up for Supermarket Stakeout.
   *]More than 750 million people lack adequate access to clean drinking water. Diarrhea caused by inadequate drinking water, sanitation, and hand hygiene kills an estimated 842,000 people every year globally, or approximately 2,300 people per day.
   *]In 2011, 165 million children under the age 5 were stunted (reduced rate of growth and development) due to chronic malnutrition.
   *]Preventable diseases like diarrhea and pneumonia take the lives of 2 million children a year who are too poor to afford proper treatment.
   *]As of 2013, 21.8 million children under 1 year of age worldwide had not received the three recommended doses of vaccine against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.
   *]1/4 of all humans live without electricity — approximately 1.6 billion people.
   *]80% of the world population lives on less than $10 a day.
   *]Oxfam estimates that it would take $60 billion annually to end extreme global poverty–that’s less than 1/4 the income of the top 100 richest billionaires.
   *]The World Food Programme says, “The poor are hungry and their hunger traps them in poverty.” Hunger is the number one cause of death in the world, killing more than HIV/AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis combined.
   
   
   Sources
   

   1. United Nations Development Programme. “Sustaining Human Progress: Reducing Vulnerabilities and Building Resilience.” Human Development Report, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   2. United Nations Inter-agency Group for Child Mortality Estimation (UN IGME). “UNICEF: Committing to Child Survival: A promise renewed.” UNICEF, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   3. FAO, IFAD and WFP. “The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2014. Strengthening the enabling environment for food security and nutrition.” Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   4. World Health Organization and UNICEF Joint Monitoring Programme (JMP). “Progress on Drinking Water and Sanitation, 2014 Update.” 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   5. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). “IMPROVING CHILD NUTRITION: The achievable imperative for global progress.” United Nations Children’s Fund. 2013. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   6. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) . “Pneumonia and diarrhoea Tackling the deadliest diseases for the world’s poorest children.” Web accessed February 25, 2014,
   7. UNICEF and WHO. “Immunization Summary: A statistical reference containing data through 2013.” 10 November 2014. Web Accessed 25 February 2015.
   8. United Nations. “The Millennium Development Goals Report 2007.” United Nations, 2007. Web Accessed April 29, 2014.
   9. Ravallion, Martin, Shaohua Chen, and Prem Sangraula. Dollar a Day Revisited. Working paper no. 4620. The World Bank, May 2008. Web Accessed February 25, 2014.
   10. Oxfam. “The cost of inequality: how wealth and income extremes hurt us all.” Oxfam, 2013. Web Accessed May 6, 2014.
   11. World Food Programme. “What causes hunger?” Food Programme Fighting Hunger Worldwide, 2010. Web Accessed February 22, 2014.
   12. UNAIDS. “Report on the Global AIDS Epidemic.” UNAIDS, 2010. Web Accessed May 1, 2015…

   And how many are willing to sacrifice the money so that their children will have the chance to access some form of education which is otherwise unavailable to them?

   After reading the above how many families do think are able to afford both the monthly smartphone costs and food?
   

   We are talking about the whole world, right? There aren’t all that many people living on less than $2/day in the US.

   I was responding to your statement re: 6.1 billion mobile subscriptions.
   

   This is one of many areas of endeavor which are gathering steam. While Malthus predicted only an arithmetic growth in actual agriculture, in terms of the dessemination of knowledge and the knowledge itself, I think there is more of a geometric progression, which means, just in terms of agriculture, a possible lifting of Malthus’s limits to ag growth.

   And of course, other areas will experience growth as well.

   [See “The Great Stagnation”](See - Wikipedia The_Great_Stagnation) This would make an interesting topic on technology.
   

   And to return to aggregate numbers, this is why looking at humanity just in terms of numbers eventually fails: this young man in Africa had to drop out of school for lack of money, but figured out how to build a generating windmill for his family.

   Good for him and his family.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Do you know of anyone who has plans to do something similar for the 3 billion + that are malnourished or the 1.2 billion who are facing water scarcity?

While we are talking about China here is another interesting fact:

Quote
According to the China State Forestry Administration, the desert areas are still expanding by between 2460 and 10,400km2 per year. Up to 400 million people are at risk of desertification in China – the affected area could cover as much as 3.317 million km2 – 34.6 per cent of the total land area.

Source…

On a state level, Israel is able to make the desert bloom!

On an individual or private group basis, research “Permaculture”.

And there are individuals of prominence, such as Geoff Lawton, who constantly teach these sustainable agricultural techniques.

Check them out.

So, YES, emphatically YES, there are people who can help malnourished people develop water and food resources.

IN ADDITION, there is the Ferrocement Institute which has developed thin shell cement structures for use as homes, water tanks, and even boat hulls.

ALL OF THIS IS VERY DOABLE and inexpensive and does not require government involvement.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I still don’t understand your point.

1. 
   *]Nearly 1/2 of the world’s population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty — less than $1.25 a day.
   *]1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.
   *]805 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat. Food banks are especially important in providing food for people that can’t afford it themselves. Run a food drive outside your local grocery store so people in your community have enough to eat. Sign up for Supermarket Stakeout.
   *]More than 750 million people lack adequate access to clean drinking water. Diarrhea caused by inadequate drinking water, sanitation, and hand hygiene kills an estimated 842,000 people every year globally, or approximately 2,300 people per day.
   *]In 2011, 165 million children under the age 5 were stunted (reduced rate of growth and development) due to chronic malnutrition.
   *]Preventable diseases like diarrhea and pneumonia take the lives of 2 million children a year who are too poor to afford proper treatment.
   *]As of 2013, 21.8 million children under 1 year of age worldwide had not received the three recommended doses of vaccine against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.
   *]1/4 of all humans live without electricity — approximately 1.6 billion people.
   *]80% of the world population lives on less than $10 a day.
   *]Oxfam estimates that it would take $60 billion annually to end extreme global poverty–that’s less than 1/4 the income of the top 100 richest billionaires.
   *]The World Food Programme says, “The poor are hungry and their hunger traps them in poverty.” Hunger is the number one cause of death in the world, killing more than HIV/AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis combined.
   
   
   Sources
   

   1. United Nations Development Programme. “Sustaining Human Progress: Reducing Vulnerabilities and Building Resilience.” Human Development Report, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   2. United Nations Inter-agency Group for Child Mortality Estimation (UN IGME). “UNICEF: Committing to Child Survival: A promise renewed.” UNICEF, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   3. FAO, IFAD and WFP. “The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2014. Strengthening the enabling environment for food security and nutrition.” Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   4. World Health Organization and UNICEF Joint Monitoring Programme (JMP). “Progress on Drinking Water and Sanitation, 2014 Update.” 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   5. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). “IMPROVING CHILD NUTRITION: The achievable imperative for global progress.” United Nations Children’s Fund. 2013. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   6. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) . “Pneumonia and diarrhoea Tackling the deadliest diseases for the world’s poorest children.” Web accessed February 25, 2014,
   7. UNICEF and WHO. “Immunization Summary: A statistical reference containing data through 2013.” 10 November 2014. Web Accessed 25 February 2015.
   8. United Nations. “The Millennium Development Goals Report 2007.” United Nations, 2007. Web Accessed April 29, 2014.
   9. Ravallion, Martin, Shaohua Chen, and Prem Sangraula. Dollar a Day Revisited. Working paper no. 4620. The World Bank, May 2008. Web Accessed February 25, 2014.
   10. Oxfam. “The cost of inequality: how wealth and income extremes hurt us all.” Oxfam, 2013. Web Accessed May 6, 2014.
   11. World Food Programme. “What causes hunger?” Food Programme Fighting Hunger Worldwide, 2010. Web Accessed February 22, 2014.
   12. UNAIDS. “Report on the Global AIDS Epidemic.” UNAIDS, 2010. Web Accessed May 1, 2015…
   After reading the above how many families do think are able to afford both the monthly smartphone costs and food?
   
   I was responding to your statement re: 6.1 billion mobile subscriptions.
   
   [See “The Great Stagnation”](See - Wikipedia The_Great_Stagnation) This would make an interesting topic on technology.
   
   Good for him and his family.

1. 
   The major negative towards poverty in China is Mao Tse Tung.
   
   During his Great Leap Forward, people with actual scientific agricultural expertise were “purged” or “liquidated” or killed because they were politically incorrect.
   
   If you read toward the end of your post, there are links to actual documents demonstrating how government directives caused so many problems. Tens of millions of people starved to death.

 

[frobert]

On a state level, Israel is able to make the desert bloom!

I have never said that individual countries can not achieve marvelous things. What do you think is stopping other countries from following Israel’s example?

On an individual or private group basis, research “Permaculture”.
And there are individuals of prominence, such as Geoff Lawton, who constantly teach these sustainable agricultural techniques.

Permaculture is fantasticbut there are problems. For one see The Trouble With Permaculture

So, YES, emphatically YES, there are people who can help malnourished people develop water and food resources.

IN ADDITION, there is the Ferrocement Institute which has developed thin shell cement structures for use as homes, water tanks, and even boat hulls.

ALL OF THIS IS VERY DOABLE and inexpensive and does not require government involvement.

Again I am not arguing that marvelous things can not be achieved only that the solutions that you and others are putting forth are not being converted into action and under the present conditions the would is overpopulated.

 

[frobert]

The major negative towards poverty in China is Mao Tse Tung.

During his Great Leap Forward, people with actual scientific agricultural expertise were “purged” or “liquidated” or killed because they were politically incorrect.

If you read toward the end of your post, there are links to actual documents demonstrating how government directives caused so many problems. Tens of millions of people starved to death.

China is actually doing very well. Did you know that their middle class is equal or larger than the population of the US.

For the record. I agree that not only has China’s government has caused many problems. You might want to also research the problems caused by the neoliberal policies of the US and EU.

 

[Sarcelle]

I have never said that individual countries can not achieve marvelous things. What do you think is stopping other countries from following Israel’s example?

Permaculture is fantasticbut there are problems. For one see The Trouble With Permaculture

Again I am not arguing that marvelous things can not be achieved only that the solutions that you and others are putting forth are not being converted into action and under the present conditions the would is overpopulated.

Now we get to the million dollar question.

If you think the world is overpopulated, what do you suggest we do with the excess population? If the world is overpopulated, this means the earth’s ecosystem cannot support such a large number of people. So who goes and who stays and who decides?

 

[frobert]

I given your questions a lot of though and have read extensively on them over a long period of time.

If you think the world is overpopulated, what do you suggest we do with the excess population?

Do our best to alleviate the suffering of as many people as we can with the resources we have. Several of the posters have given examples of marvelous things that are being accomplished throughout the world.

If the world is overpopulated, this means the earth’s ecosystem cannot support such a large number of people.

That is correct, and I am aware that my answer to the first question exacerbates our predicament.

So who goes and who stays and who decides?

Each of decides what we and are able and willing to do.

 

[frobert]

It’s highly unlikely the global human population will continue to grow exponentially
youtube.com/watch?v=ezVk1ahRF78&feature=youtu.be&t=10m18s

The increase, and crash of reindeer on St. Matthew Island is an analogous example of why the global human population will not continue to grow exponentially.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I have never said that individual countries can not achieve marvelous things. What do you think is stopping other countries from following Israel’s example?

Permaculture is fantasticbut there are problems. For one see The Trouble With Permaculture

Again I am not arguing that marvelous things can not be achieved only that the solutions that you and others are putting forth are not being converted into action and under the present conditions the would is overpopulated.

The problem with Permaculture is that ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL!



Your point was that how do you feed people where there isn’t enough water.

Permaculture works in arid lands.

BUT IF YOU HAVE TOO MUCH WATER, then you need to modify it.

 

[MindyO]

overpopulationisamyth.com/

 

[frobert]

The problem with Permaculture is that ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL!

Your point was that how do you feed people where there isn’t enough water.

Permaculture works in arid lands.

BUT IF YOU HAVE TOO MUCH WATER, then you need to modify it.

I have no idea of what your point about water is but perhaps I was not clear on what the problem was in the article I linked to.
From: The Trouble with Permaculture
Quote
So why does my heart sink when I hear of another Transition Initiative that has acquired a good bit of land, announce with great enthusiasm, that they’re going to plant a food forest? For one, it will take many years for even the most perfectly designed, planted and maintained forest garden to literally bear fruit and how are you going to keep your volunteers on board during that time?

I am not saying that is makes PC impossible, only that it is an obstacle that must be overcome, i.e. feeding the people during the many years.

If you want to comment on some of the things I did say, I welcome a debate on them.

 

[frobert]

overpopulationisamyth.com/

What do you find are the most salient points made at this website that address the points not already covered or not sufficiently covered on this thread?

 

[ATraveller]

The increase, and crash of reindeer on St. Matthew Island is an analogous example of why the global human population will not continue to grow exponentially.

Hardly. If you watched the TEDx presentation the overall global growth rate has slowed and will only be enough for population replacement. Even at 10 or so billion people there are still plenty of resources. The question is how it will be redistributed. Today’s famines aren’t due to a lack of food (there’s actually an excess) but a distribution and delivery issue, which can easily be solved by technological advances and better management.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

#10 & #27 shortage of water.

Your posts.

Agriculture works. Food gets produced.

What you can do is to visit those countries and see how poorly and/or how corruptly the governments are run.

I have worked in those countries.

Even in the most drought ridden countries, innovative farmers grow food crops.

We know food can be grown.

From experience.

Get on an airplane and see for yourself instead of reading reports written by international experts living in New York or Geneva.

The City of Leptis Magna was the export city for olive oil in Libya for the breadbasket of Rome in North Africa. After it was conquered by certain people, the place turned to a sterile desert. Visit Leptis Magna and see for yourself.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

The University of Arizona has their Office of Arid Lands Studies.

cals.arizona.edu/industry-community

They have a bulletin or magazine.

cals.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/ALNHome2.html

Get the back issues and read them. All about success stories.

They need some help in digitizing the older back issues.

cals.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/about-aln.html

Maybe you could go there and help them.

 

[frobert]

What you can do is to visit those countries and see how poorly and/or how corruptly the governments are run.

You are correct, governments are corrupt. Do you know of any way to fix them.

Even in the most drought ridden countries, innovative farmers grow food crops.

How does this convert to feeding 7.5 billion people.

We know food can be grown.

Of course, I grow food in my yard.

Get on an airplane and see for yourself instead of reading reports written by international experts living in New York or Geneva.

I reside in a very poor county, poverty is all around me. I do not need to travel to see it.

The City of Leptis Magna was the export city for olive oil in Libya for the breadbasket of Rome in North Africa. After it was conquered by certain people, the place turned to a sterile desert. Visit Leptis Magna and see for yourself.

I don’t need to go back 2000 years, Recently Libya had the highest per capita income in the ME until the US decided they didn’t like their policies.

 

[frobert]

Hardly. If you watched the TEDx presentation the overall global growth rate has slowed and will only be enough for population replacement.

Hans Rosling only verified, with statistics, what we already know, i.e. infinite growth of population is not possible because the exponential exponent is decreasing.

Quote
According to a Harvard study, “Over the next forty years, nearly all (97%) of the 2.3 billion projected increase will be in the less developed regions, with nearly half (49%) in Africa.” Already strained with relentless population explosion, many developing countries, such as in Sub Saharan Africa and Southern Asia, will experience a degradation of their quality and length of life as they face increasing difficulties to supply water, food, energy and housing to their growing populations, which will have major repercussions for public health, security measures and economic growth. These situations are especially dire for populations in Uganda, Nigeria, and Bangladesh, which will double and, in some cases, even triple over the next 40 years. Learn more.

Source…

Even at 10 or so billion people there are still plenty of resources.

And your sources are?

How we know the world population is in overshoot.

Effects of Human Overpopulation

1. 
   *]Loss of Fresh Water
   *]Species Extinction
   *]Lower Life Expectancy in the Fastest Growing Countries
   *]Less Freedom, More Restrictions
   *]Increased Emergence of New Epidemics and Pandemics
   *]Depletion of Natural Resources
   *]Increased Habitat Loss
   *]More Intensive Farming Practices
   *]Increased Global Warming and Climate Change
   *]Elevated Crime Rate
   
   Everything connects!

 

[frobert]

The University of Arizona has their Office of Arid Lands Studies.
cals.arizona.edu/industry-community

They have a bulletin or magazine.
cals.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/ALNHome2.html

Get the back issues and read them. All about success stories.

They need some help in digitizing the older back issues.

cals.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/about-aln.html

I have read many awesome stories and academic studies on what can be accomplished as well as personally witnessing some amazing results. You have yet to show how such things can translate to alleviate the problems of an overpopulated world with 7.5 billion people.

Maybe you could go there and help them.

My family is active in our community and church. We do what we are able, with both time and charity, to help.

 

[St_Francis]

I still don’t understand your point.

This, and your last comment below, show a way of thinking which considers people in the aggregate, as economic units rather than as individual human beings with the inherent capacity to do things.

1. 
   *]Nearly 1/2 of the world’s population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty — less than $1.25 a day.
   *]1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.
   *]805 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat. Food banks are especially important in providing food for people that can’t afford it themselves. Run a food drive outside your local grocery store so people in your community have enough to eat. Sign up for Supermarket Stakeout.
   *]More than 750 million people lack adequate access to clean drinking water. Diarrhea caused by inadequate drinking water, sanitation, and hand hygiene kills an estimated 842,000 people every year globally, or approximately 2,300 people per day.
   *]In 2011, 165 million children under the age 5 were stunted (reduced rate of growth and development) due to chronic malnutrition.
   *]Preventable diseases like diarrhea and pneumonia take the lives of 2 million children a year who are too poor to afford proper treatment.
   *]As of 2013, 21.8 million children under 1 year of age worldwide had not received the three recommended doses of vaccine against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.
   *]1/4 of all humans live without electricity — approximately 1.6 billion people.
   *]80% of the world population lives on less than $10 a day.
   *]Oxfam estimates that it would take $60 billion annually to end extreme global poverty–that’s less than 1/4 the income of the top 100 richest billionaires.
   *]The World Food Programme says, “The poor are hungry and their hunger traps them in poverty.” Hunger is the number one cause of death in the world, killing more than HIV/AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis combined.

1. 
   

   Sources
   

   1. United Nations Development Programme. “Sustaining Human Progress: Reducing Vulnerabilities and Building Resilience.” Human Development Report, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   2. United Nations Inter-agency Group for Child Mortality Estimation (UN IGME). “UNICEF: Committing to Child Survival: A promise renewed.” UNICEF, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   3. FAO, IFAD and WFP. “The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2014. Strengthening the enabling environment for food security and nutrition.” Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN, 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   4. World Health Organization and UNICEF Joint Monitoring Programme (JMP). “Progress on Drinking Water and Sanitation, 2014 Update.” 2014. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   5. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF). “IMPROVING CHILD NUTRITION: The achievable imperative for global progress.” United Nations Children’s Fund. 2013. Web Accessed February 25, 2015.
   6. United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) . “Pneumonia and diarrhoea Tackling the deadliest diseases for the world’s poorest children.” Web accessed February 25, 2014,
   7. UNICEF and WHO. “Immunization Summary: A statistical reference containing data through 2013.” 10 November 2014. Web Accessed 25 February 2015.
   8. United Nations. “The Millennium Development Goals Report 2007.” United Nations, 2007. Web Accessed April 29, 2014.
   9. Ravallion, Martin, Shaohua Chen, and Prem Sangraula. Dollar a Day Revisited. Working paper no. 4620. The World Bank, May 2008. Web Accessed February 25, 2014.
   10. Oxfam. “The cost of inequality: how wealth and income extremes hurt us all.” Oxfam, 2013. Web Accessed May 6, 2014.
   11. World Food Programme. “What causes hunger?” Food Programme Fighting Hunger Worldwide, 2010. Web Accessed February 22, 2014.
   12. UNAIDS. “Report on the Global AIDS Epidemic.” UNAIDS, 2010. Web Accessed May 1, 2015…

   World poverty is going down. Yes, if you set your level slightly higher, you can find bad-looking numbers, just as starting a global temps chart in the middle of the cold spell in the 1970s looks worse. It is also harder to find information about a number which is not the one generally used.
   
   However, global poverty is falling, and if two or more families get together, they might be able to afford a smart phone and use it to access education.
   
   Wwhether or not the precise prediction of 6.1 B people using smartphones is accurate will remain hard to evalutate until the time comes.
   

   After reading the above how many families do think are able to afford both the monthly smartphone costs and food?

   I was responding to your statement re: 6.1 billion mobile subscriptions.

   [See “The Great Stagnation”](See - Wikipedia The_Great_Stagnation) This would make an interesting topic on technology.

   People are always predicting that we have reached the end of innovation. Then someine comes up with something new…
   

   Good for him and his family.

   See what I mean?