Overpopulation thread: how many planets does your lifestyle require?

  • Thread starter Thread starter flyingfish
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Your argument is rather fatuous, I think.
You are right. However, it does not negate my point about the fact that these sort of websites have a political agenda in mind.

The site also fails to take into account national production. It assumes that if I eat meat that there are production costs and transportation costs involved that make the eating of meat seem much more ecologically unfriendly that it truly is.

I can buy a hind quarter from a local packing house that uses locally raised cattle and there are negligible costs or ecological impact in that.

It assumes that my primary source of electricity is a power grid instead of the solar panels on my roof.

Furthermore, it assumes that running water means city water which is not necessarily so.

Too many assumptions are made for that to be accurate. I’m certain that I do not use 3.1 earths.

Bah.
 
Well, we over-consume in the relative sense. We use more than we should if resources were divided equally among all people living today. But, we don’t use all that much in the absolute sense (well save for those that live in mansions with heated sidewalks in the garden during winter).

I mean, I live in a small-average house. I take the bus as often as drive. I eat a lot of fresh foods that are grown locally, and still my lifestyle requires 4.4 planets if everyone were to live it. The only time I eat out is something like a sandwich at Subway since I’m not home most of the day.

I agree with you about overeating and restaurants.

Once the population was so that everyone on earth had enough resources for a good lifestyle families could start having 2 children on average to keep the population stable. That way children would grow up with a sibling!
Your answer says it all. You feel you live a modest lifestyle, and yet simply by virtue of the world population, this quiz would have you believe that unless we massively reduce the population of the world, that we would need 4 earths to maintain the status quo.

World population not only isn’t the problem, massively reducing the population is not something that we could do morally. Already many countries are experiencing many very negative consequences of declining birth rates due to artificial birth control and abortion.

There is never going to be a time where everyone on earth is consuming resources at the exact same rate, so worrying about it and taking drastic steps to solve a problem that is never going to happen is completely foolish.

The obvious answer to this problem…as well as to our current economic problem is to change our habits of consumption. We can all work on being less wasteful and we can choose to do business with companies that don’t exploit the earth’s resources in a way that is wasteful. Personally, I have a big problem with the way that everything is so disposable these days. We buy poorly made products that are produced overseas in countries that have no environmental standards. The end result is that we are dumping them in our landfills and replacing them with more. So, we have lost manufacturing jobs here, we have made places that do repairs a thing of the past, and we are contributing to companies that are gross polluters of the earth. Seems pretty stupid. It would seem to make a lot more sense to attack problems like these rather than to try to press for population reduction.
 
We do not have overpopulation. We have a misunderstanding about what and how much it takes to live abundantly in this world.
It appears my biggest fault is that I am omnivorous. And that I do not use public transport.
We have a very little amount of public transport where I live. Certainly I could not get to work and home on it as we are not hooked in to the bus line that goes to the area of the city nearby where I work. And I have thought about car pooling…but no one I know lives in my area that travels to my office area. Besides I have to pick up grandchildren after school and transport them. Car poolers rarely want to go for that ride.
Eating meat…I eat locally grown beef,and pork. I would like to eat locally grown poultry but there is some state law about it’s processing that makes it difficult. Raw milk has the same problem. We can buy it for about the same price as processed (which is also from a local family dairy/producer/processor) but for unprocessed milk one has to buy it directly from the farm not in the public/farmer’s market much further away ( unless we do the black market deal we did last year where it was smuggled in. Yum!)
 
I don’t think these quizzes are meant to be really accurate. But they are indicative of the kind of over-use of resources that we face.

Because we live in a nation where we take a certain standard of living for granted, it can be hard to get outside of that and really see how much we use. Like people who live in a society where a certain form of immorality is common, it becomes hard to see what is normal. So a little quiz like this is really a tool to try to get outside of that.

Eating meat from local sources, which one pp mentioned, is a good example. It is a really good way to reduce our impact. On the other hand, how much meat we eat is another issue. Most North Americans eat far more than is good for them, sustainable for farms, or than has been eaten historically in most parts of the world. It’s easy to assume that eating meat once a day is a reasonable amount (it is less than many people eat after all), but if we sit down to think about it, we can see it’s not necessary from a health perspective, and may in many cases actually be too much.

So I don’t think people should get caught up in the results of a quiz, but it is a good way to begin assessing how we impact the Earth, and by extension other people, through our day to day activities.

I would be really interested to see an example of a one-Earth lifestyle. It wouldn’t work for every situation of place, but it would be useful as a way to mentally compare our own lifestyle, and it might give us some good ideas.
 
One thing that hasn’t been pointed out yet is that it is a fallacy that the third world suffers because we overuse resources. While I agree that we need to be good stewards of the planet and our western lifestyles could be changed for the better (ie eating more locally instead of relying on industrial farming), I do not agree that our lifestyles are the cause of suffering in the third world. The primary cause of suffering and porverty in the third world are oppressive, corrupt, tyrannical rulers. Even if we westerners consumed less, it does not necessarily follow that there would be more for others.
 
It’s obvious that overusing resources are the problem, rather than overpopulation.

I could not care less how many kids someone has but I do care when people treat the planet like their own personal trashcan. Kind of reminds me what we humans tend to do when God gives us a gift: throw it away.

Did God give us the earth so that we could destroy all forests, pollute the oceans, and fill the air with smog, just so we can drive fancy cars and live in big houses? Or did God give us the earth for us to dwell in and to share with our brothers and sisters, to take care of and keep it beautiful, even if it means we live a bit more simply?

The Pope said we have a moral obligation to take care of the planet. I wouldn’t dare try to be more Catholic than he is.
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Well said! The Earth is one of God’s gifts to us, and we are not showing respect or love for God when we abuse His gifts.
 
Why isn’t it Catholic to want to take care of the planet? I think God doesn’t want other species to be driven to extinction by destruction of their habitats, pollution and the like, or for us to exhaust the planet (like some farming techniques today that are essential to producing high yields turn the soil into a salty desert overtime).

As the intelligent species on this planet, don’t you think it’s our responsibility to take care of it and make sure it lasts for a long time?
GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY!!!

Is that mentioned anywhere in the bible?
 
I plan to do my part to help increase the population “problem” by hitting the double digits with my own family size. I also tell my children that the biggest environmental problem on Earth is that there not enough people.

I need to use lots of resources because my time is so valuable (I make a lot of money) that I don’t want the burden of doing things from scratch. And I want lots of meat because it is good for me.
 
GO FORTH AND MULTIPLY!!!

Is that mentioned anywhere in the bible?
The Old Testament also says not to eat shellfish and stone adulterers, does the Church teach these things today? No.

If you look at “go forth and multiply” in context, you see that it was said to the very first 2 human beings. The only 2 human beings.

I think it’s fair to say that we’ve gone forth and multiplied very well!

Even if you don’t believe the Earth is overpopulated today, at some point you have to acknowledge it will be (unless human beings agree not to reproduce above replacement rate). So it’s only a matter of time before you (or your descendants) would have to confront these issues.
 
The Old Testament also says not to eat shellfish and stone adulterers, does the Church teach these things today? No.

If you look at “go forth and multiply” in context, you see that it was said to the very first 2 human beings. The only 2 human beings.

I think it’s fair to say that we’ve gone forth and multiplied very well!

Even if you don’t believe the Earth is overpopulated today, at some point you have to acknowledge it will be (unless human beings agree not to reproduce above replacement rate). So it’s only a matter of time before you (or your descendants) would have to confront these issues.
It was said to more than Adam and Eve.

Shellfish, I believe, is still banned in some Eastern Catholic Rites. For the most part, what Jesus didn’t reject from the OT still has importance to us today. Go forth and multiply is in the CCC which states that large families are a sign of a parent’s generosity.
 
Why do I do things like this?
I totally disagree with you survey and conclusions.
Usually the more the merrier, we like being with people, even in a crowd. The last time you were alone, did you look around and wonder where everyone was? The worlds population will soon be at 7 billion, some of your people think America could handle 7 billion people and get along just grand. Ever head of togetherness!!
I perdict, in 17 million years when our population is really big, we will have started to populate other planets due to our desire for space travel. I chose 17 million years because one of your people told me that 30 or 40 years ago, oh yes, that our sun would explode and become a red giant, so we had better be all off by then.
Oh, this isn’t the joke section?
I think if we just go on have kids, God will take care of us, don’t worry about the population just plan for space travel!!
Have a nice day:):):):):):)🙂
 
I plan to do my part to help increase the population “problem” by hitting the double digits with my own family size. I also tell my children that the biggest environmental problem on Earth is that there not enough people.

I need to use lots of resources because my time is so valuable (I make a lot of money) that I don’t want the burden of doing things from scratch. And I want lots of meat because it is good for me.
And you will be blessed for you efforts to help the population grow.
In China today, they have a problem of underpopulation, there are not enough young families to take care of their elderly. The one child per married couple equals four elderly parents for the child and his bride.to care for and be resoponsible. The deathof a child some times doesn’t give the parents time to have another one during their reproduction periods.
Babies, BAbies, more babies!!:):):):):):)🙂
 
It was said to more than Adam and Eve.

Shellfish, I believe, is still banned in some Eastern Catholic Rites. For the most part, what Jesus didn’t reject from the OT still has importance to us today. Go forth and multiply is in the CCC which states that large families are a sign of a parent’s generosity.
I did a search for “multiply” in the Bible:

biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=multiply&searchtype=all&version1=49&spanbegin=1&spanend=73

95% of the results are found in Genesis, the part of the Bible concerned with creation and the very first human beings. We are told to multiply and fill the Earth, and we have done this a long time ago. We are not told to be fruitful and multiply in the New Testament at all.

Do you think the same directive would be given today, when we are soon to have 7 billion people on earth?

And I agree, large families in modern societies are a sign of generosity. People who have large families today aren’t having them to get additional farmhands or deliberately to use up resources. I never suggested anything of the kind!

At the same time, if not now at some point we have to stop population growth. The Earth is finite, and we share it with many other living things. There is nothing un-Catholic about recognizing this fact.

People talk sometimes about using NFP with sadness, when a couple may want another child but for a serious reason it would not be prudent to have one. At some point (and I personally think we have passed it long ago), population becomes one of these reasons.
 
At the same time, if not now at some point we have to stop population growth. The Earth is finite, and we share it with many other living things. There is nothing un-Catholic about recognizing this fact.
But there is something un-truthful about making the blanket statement that “the Earth is finite.” Humans naturally adjust their use of scarce resources, just as nature does. In fact, it’s the same system. We just call it “ecology” with regard to non-human ecosystems, and “economics” with regard to human systems. Adam Smith called it “natural freedom,” and I prefer this, as it is the most accurate description. It is “natural” and it is the proper state of “freedom.”
People talk sometimes about using NFP with sadness, when a couple may want another child but for a serious reason it would not be prudent to have one. At some point (and I personally think we have passed it long ago), population becomes one of these reasons.
Population does not become a reason to not have children. It becomes a reason to seek more efficient means of providing for ourselves, and it has been a force practiced throughout history.
Fairly distributing resources doesn’t mean the individual doesn’t matter, it means all individuals matter, not just the rich ones. Why should some people have the right to a disproportionate share of the planet?
They can win this right by force, but is it moral?
Who decides what is “fair?” Any answer relies on faulty, limited humans imposing their will on others, so any answer attempting to apply a concept of “fair distribution” has an evil basis.

It is not that people have “right” to a “disproportionate share of the planet.” It is how the ecosystem, including humans, has worked out. Just as an alpha wolf or bull elephant, expansive fungus or high trophic-level animal takes up/consumes/has a larger ecological “footprint” and great consumption of resources than other organisms, even other organisms of the same species, so too do some humans, due to competition and productivity, have access to a greater amount of resources.

As scarcity increases, price increases, which drives innovation and efficiency or a turn to alternatives.

We produce plenty of food in this world already. And that’s even with the vast majority of the world’s population and cultivated land mass being hugely underutilized by poor farming techniques. Political corruption and poor policies, as well as poor economic organization, create a distribution problem.

There are plenty of resources on the planet to sustain many times our current population at great material wealth. A simple illustration of that is the above-mentioned inefficient production of food on earth and the principle that agriculture is the basis of all wealth. Here’s a picture of the future, using technology that we currently have or can easily foresee:
  1. Food becomes scarce, production increases. Ultimately, scarce food can drive hydroponic production, which could produce more than 10 times the food than fertile farmland with far less waste and water. We could probably cultivate less than 10% the land area we do now in the world and feed 100 times more people if it were all hydroponics. Hydroponics can also efficiently produce biodiesel from algae.
  2. Wealth increases dramatically due to agricultural production. Energy becomes scarce, price goes up, driving switch entirely to solar and nuclear or fusion.
  3. Transportation is accomplished primarily through electricity from the above clean energy sources.
  4. Construction: already in the U.S., 90% of steel is recycled, lumber can be recycled, and we have more forest area today than we did when America was first settled. Even if renewable sources of wood were stressed, minerals can be continually re-used and more efficiently recovered, and there is a virtually inexhaustible supply of stone for buildings.
  5. Water demand goes down with more efficient agricultural use and plumbing. If scarcity increases sufficiently, wastewater reuse expands and, along with desalination, produces an endless supply of water.
  6. Residential footprints continue to diminish with creation of environmental corridors and vertical expansion.
  7. Recycling becomes more economically feasible and dominant (already, my wife and I produce only 1 10gal bag of trash per week with the rest being recycled, and if we composted, we’d probably only have about a 1gal bag of trash). Landfills become deeper and more efficient (1cubic km of earth excavated could hold the trash of the US for many, many years, and contains enough minerals, if perfectly extracted, to supply the world’s mineral needs for many years–this from a 2002 Environmental Geology class, exact stats in my notes)
  8. Increased wealth permits more expensive, cleaner industry as well as expensive environmental remediation and restoration.
  9. Nanotechnology permits vastly more efficient extraction and utilization of resources.
  10. Space elevators relieve shipping burdens and permit escape into space, with space mining of resources, jettisoning of waste, and colonization.
Those last two in particular (and fusion earlier, though a power plant is currently being built) may sound like science fiction, but the technology has been in the works for years now. What allows us to achieve this near-miraculous state of sustainable, efficient use of resources at vast levels of material wealth and luxury?

The price mechanism of economics. Which is really just a measure of human ingenuity driven by scarcity of resources.
 
It’s obvious that overusing resources are the problem, rather than overpopulation.

I could not care less how many kids someone has but I do care when people treat the planet like their own personal trashcan. Kind of reminds me what we humans tend to do when God gives us a gift: throw it away.

Did God give us the earth so that we could destroy all forests, pollute the oceans, and fill the air with smog, just so we can drive fancy cars and live in big houses? Or did God give us the earth for us to dwell in and to share with our brothers and sisters, to take care of and keep it beautiful, even if it means we live a bit more simply?

The Pope said we have a moral obligation to take care of the planet. I wouldn’t dare try to be more Catholic than he is.
There is a difference between stewardship and green marxism. It is appalling how many Catholics buy into this save-the-planet program.
 
I don’t think recycling, reducing my consumption of meat, and believing that maybe we should use things like solar power instead of drilling, drilling, drilling all the time makes me a Communist…

Seriously, even the Pope has said we need to take care of the environment. I guess Papa Ben is a Communist?

Personally, I think it’s just as dangerous when we tell people that the only way to be Catholic is to pretend we never left the 50’s, that they have to be Republican or at least politically conservative, and that modernity in all its forms is wrong. If people find it helps them to follow Church teachings, that’s fine, but it doesn’t help the rest of us and it turns the faith instituted by Jesus into a bunch of rules and legalism. Which is what He warned against.

Follow God and take care of all things because He gave them to you. Including the planet and the poorest.
 
Follow God and take care of all things because He gave them to you. Including the planet and the poorest.
Yes, but do it effectively. You speak against conservatives, but the argument of conservatives is that not only do they support moral values regarding life and family in society (as starkly opposed to the currently-dominant party), but that following the principles of natural freedom (free market capitalism) is the best way available to respect liberty and address material well-being and environmental protection.

The historical case is pretty strong. The more powerful centralized governments have been, the more they have tended over the long term to produce more poverty and more environmental destruction than others (as well as more moral degradation), with Communism being a prime example.

You say that it is not helpful or right for Catholics to suggest that we ought to align ourselves with a conservative political group in this country. If the other groups do greater harm on virtually all fronts, then how could it be right to align with them?
 
There is a difference between stewardship and green marxism. It is appalling how many Catholics buy into this save-the-planet program.
I don’t know, I’ve been quite shocked to see people defending greed as a positive force, American style individualism and profit as primary values in Catholicism, and saying that it is a bad idea to work with others for the good of all. Those things all strike me as positive evils; taking action against environmental degradation at least has the backing of the Pope. I have an good idea who backs those other things.

OOps, I just realized I may have mixed up my threads a bit!😊 It was the talk about conservatives and Marxists that had me confused. So my real comment - why in the world is a call to social action identified with communism? No one would identify a call to action on abortion as a call to communism.
 
Yes, but do it effectively. You speak against conservatives, but the argument of conservatives is that not only do they support moral values regarding life and family in society (as starkly opposed to the currently-dominant party), but that following the principles of natural freedom (free market capitalism) is the best way available to respect liberty and address material well-being and environmental protection.

The historical case is pretty strong. The more powerful centralized governments have been, the more they have tended over the long term to produce more poverty and more environmental destruction than others (as well as more moral degradation), with Communism being a prime example.

You say that it is not helpful or right for Catholics to suggest that we ought to align ourselves with a conservative political group in this country. If the other groups do greater harm on virtually all fronts, then how could it be right to align with them?
Well, it is possible not to buy into any of the teams that are running. I know a lot of Christians that have real problems with most political parties, and so vote etc on a rather ad hoc basis - often for the local representative they think will be nest, whatever party they represent. I used to know a very conservative priest who always voted federally for the Communist Party of Canada, because he came to the conclusion they actually most closely represented his views and those of the Church, though he wasn’t by any stretch a communist. He wouldn’t have anything to do with the actual Conservatives.
 
Population does not become a reason to not have children. It becomes a reason to seek more efficient means of providing for ourselves, and it has been a force practiced throughout history.
Couples use NFP when they feel they do not have the resources to support a child, how is it different to use NFP when you feel there are not enough resources in the world to support additional people?

And it doesn’t have to be an either or situation. We should seek more efficient means of providing for ourselves, but at some point we will run into a limit (and perhaps have already reached this limit). There are only so many resources on the planet, even with perfect efficiency there is a limit to how many living things can be supported.
It is not that people have “right” to a “disproportionate share of the planet.” It is how the ecosystem, including humans, has worked out. Just as an alpha wolf or bull elephant, expansive fungus or high trophic-level animal takes up/consumes/has a larger ecological “footprint” and great consumption of resources than other organisms, even other organisms of the same species, so too do some humans, due to competition and productivity, have access to a greater amount of resources.
Too often it has “worked out” this way through military force, and the current distribution of wealth in the world has a lot to do with the actions of the colonizing European powers.

We can talk about the ways that this world order is maintained today to the advantage of Westerners, but this is not what it’s about.

The point is that some things, like water, like land, like natural resources are simply “there” on the planet. And if you believe God gave us this planet with these resources, do you think God made for some of us to have the great majority while others nearly nothing? Or do you think God meant for us to share them in a reasonably equal amount?

I mean, do you think it’s fair for Western nations to buy food grown in Ethiopia (in order for Ethiopia to be able to pay back its loan to the IMF) while its people don’t have enough to eat?
  1. Food becomes scarce, production increases. Ultimately, scarce food can drive hydroponic production, which could produce more than 10 times the food than fertile farmland with far less waste and water. We could probably cultivate less than 10% the land area we do now in the world and feed 100 times more people if it were all hydroponics. Hydroponics can also efficiently produce biodiesel from algae.
  2. Wealth increases dramatically due to agricultural production. Energy becomes scarce, price goes up, driving switch entirely to solar and nuclear or fusion.
  3. Transportation is accomplished primarily through electricity from the above clean energy sources.
  4. Construction: already in the U.S., 90% of steel is recycled, lumber can be recycled, and we have more forest area today than we did when America was first settled. Even if renewable sources of wood were stressed, minerals can be continually re-used and more efficiently recovered, and there is a virtually inexhaustible supply of stone for buildings.
  5. Water demand goes down with more efficient agricultural use and plumbing. If scarcity increases sufficiently, wastewater reuse expands and, along with desalination, produces an endless supply of water.
  6. Residential footprints continue to diminish with creation of environmental corridors and vertical expansion.
  7. Recycling becomes more economically feasible and dominant (already, my wife and I produce only 1 10gal bag of trash per week with the rest being recycled, and if we composted, we’d probably only have about a 1gal bag of trash). Landfills become deeper and more efficient (1cubic km of earth excavated could hold the trash of the US for many, many years, and contains enough minerals, if perfectly extracted, to supply the world’s mineral needs for many years–this from a 2002 Environmental Geology class, exact stats in my notes)
  8. Increased wealth permits more expensive, cleaner industry as well as expensive environmental remediation and restoration.
  9. Nanotechnology permits vastly more efficient extraction and utilization of resources.
  10. Space elevators relieve shipping burdens and permit escape into space, with space mining of resources, jettisoning of waste, and colonization.
Those last two in particular (and fusion earlier, though a power plant is currently being built) may sound like science fiction, but the technology has been in the works for years now. What allows us to achieve this near-miraculous state of sustainable, efficient use of resources at vast levels of material wealth and luxury?
The price mechanism of economics. Which is really just a measure of human ingenuity driven by scarcity of resources.
These things you listed, particularly new inventions and improvements in technology will certainly allow us to provide for more people, but still not an infinite amount of people. At some point, overpopulation will have to be confronted. And as it stands, we do not have space elevators, colonization, or widespread nanotechnology. Those are all very hopeful things, but we don’t have them now.

Talking about what might-be is pointless. It might be that tomorrow we’ll have a nuclear war or an epidemic that will wipe most of us out. We should talk about what is, what we have now, and work with it.

As it stands, it is more likely that food will become less available. There is more demand for fossil fuels, and many say peak oil is here. Fossil fuels are key in modern farming techniques. Modern farming techniques also turn land into deserts.

You say hydroponics is more efficient, but I bet it is also more expensive or else it would be more widely used. You still need energy to operate the facilities. Where does that come from?

–

Even when you look at things optimistically, unless we will be able to indefinitely colonize new planets (a really far-fetched idea, considering the distances between stars) we will have to say at some point that it is not only moral to limit family size, but immoral not to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top