Overwhelming evidence for Design?

[greylorn]

1. The true value of belief in Design is revealed when we are overwhelmed by evil.
2. In a purposeless world there is no answer to injustice.
3. In a purposeless world there is no solution for affliction.
4. In a purposeless world death becomes more important than life.
5. Design implies that life is more important than death.
6. Design implies that life is not an accident.
7. Design implies that this life is not the only life.
8. Design implies that spiritual development outlasts physical development.
9. Design implies that truth, freedom, justice, beauty and love are real.
10. Design implies that good will ultimately prevail over evil.

This is an excess of blather. Design does not imply anything, unless you know the intent of the designer.

For example, any unthinking nit might claim that the designers of the nuclear bombs dropped upon Japan in WWII were evil people. Yet they were not, nor were those who ordered and facilitated its deployment. It was designed to end a brutal war, as it did, saving untold lives.

You have milked the notion of “design implication” nearly to death without providing a single logical connection between your assertions and their cause. You have become an irrelevant listmeister.

Your absurd claim that, “Design implies that life is more important than death,” makes little sense when applied to a planet where death is the only certainty.

What purpose do you attribute to the Designer? How does that purpose justify the claims in your silly list?

 

[tonyrey]

This is an excess of blather. Design does not imply anything, unless you know the intent of the designer.

For example, any unthinking nit might claim that the designers of the nuclear bombs dropped upon Japan in WWII were evil people. Yet they were not, nor were those who ordered and facilitated its deployment. It was designed to end a brutal war, as it did, saving untold lives.

You have milked the notion of “design implication” nearly to death without providing a single logical connection between your assertions and their cause. You have become an irrelevant listmeister.

Your absurd claim that, “Design implies that life is more important than death,” makes little sense when applied to a planet where death is the only certainty.

What purpose do you attribute to the Designer? How does that purpose justify the claims in your silly list?

Abusive posts merit no response…

 

[tonyrey]

1. **In a purposeless world **death becomes more important than life for those who are overwhelmed by evil and are victims of gross injustice or irremediable affliction.
2. Life is more important than death when there is an afterlife in which injustice is rectified and every tear is wiped away:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all
kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way
they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:3-12

.

 

[ReapReason]

1. **In a purposeless world **death becomes more important than life for those who are overwhelmed by evil and are victims of gross injustice or irremediable affliction.
2. Life is more important than death when there is an afterlife in which injustice is rectified and every tear is wiped away:

Matthew 5:3-12

.

Quantum-pants!! You’re Right!!!

 

[rossum]

1. Life is more important than death when there is an afterlife in which injustice is rectified and every tear is wiped away:

Matthew 5:3-12

And how is this relevant to Christianity, where there are many tears in part of the afterlife, “weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth”?

Your ideas might apply to a Universalist religion, where everyone attains heaven/nirvana/whatever. They do not apply to standard Christianity or to Catholicism, where for some people the afterlife is extremely unpleasant.

rossum

 

[Sister_Terese]

And how is this relevant to Christianity, where there are many tears in part of the afterlife, “weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth”?

Your ideas might apply to a Universalist religion, where everyone attains heaven/nirvana/whatever. They do not apply to standard Christianity or to Catholicism, where for some people the afterlife is extremely unpleasant.

rossum

The mistake so many make about damnation is that it is not God who condemns us, but we ourselves. God simply gives us what we’ve chosen in life. An existence without Him.

 

[tonyrey]

The mistake so many make about damnation is that it is not God who condemns us, but we ourselves. God simply gives us what we’ve chosen in life. An existence without Him.

Precisely!

 

[tonyrey]

And how is this relevant to Christianity, where there are many tears in part of the afterlife, “weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth”?

Your ideas might apply to a Universalist religion, where everyone attains heaven/nirvana/whatever. They do not apply to standard Christianity or to Catholicism, where for some people the afterlife is extremely unpleasant.

Universalism fails to take into account the harsh reality of evil.

 

[tonyrey]

Quantum-pants!! You’re Right!!!

The beauty of Christ’s teaching is evident in His compassion and promise of consolation for the afflicted and victims of injustice. Even suffering is transformed into a means of spiritual development.

Life is no longer harsh but beautiful because we are created for love…

 

[rossum]

The mistake so many make about damnation is that it is not God who condemns us, but we ourselves. God simply gives us what we’ve chosen in life. An existence without Him.

Whoever does the choosing, does not negate the fact that hell is described as a place of tears. tonyrey’s argument was predicated on there being no tears in the afterlife, hence his argument fails in the case of Christianity.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Universalism fails to take into account the harsh reality of evil.

So you agree that there are tears in the afterlife, and that your previous argument fails because of that fact?

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

So you agree that there are tears in the afterlife, and that your previous argument fails because of that fact?

There are tears of joy in heaven because love leads to fulfilment and contentment.

There are tears of frustration in hell because self-love leads to isolation and frustration.

Spiritual development - or lack of it - is the keynote of Buddhism…

 

[rossum]

There are tears of joy in heaven because love leads to fulfilment and contentment.

There are tears of frustration in hell because self-love leads to isolation and frustration.

Which does not redeem the logical failure of your earlier statement:

1. Life is more important than death when there is an afterlife in which injustice is rectified and every tear is wiped away

I suggest you find a replacement for that part of your argument, the current one does not work.

Spiritual development - or lack of it - is the keynote of Buddhism…

You are both showing your lack of knowledge and dragging in an irrelevancy to this argument about design. Perhaps you wish to distract from your lack of success with your point about tears?

rossum

 

[tonyrey]

*There are tears of joy in heaven because love leads to fulfilment and contentment.

Your deduction is false.

1. Life is more important than death when there is an afterlife in which injustice is rectified and every tear is wiped away

I suggest you find a replacement for that part of your argument, the current one does not work.

Your deduction is still false.

Spiritual development - or lack of it - is the keynote of Buddhism…

You are both showing your lack of knowledge and dragging in an irrelevancy to this argument about design.

If you believe Buddhism is not concerned with spiritual development the boot is on the other foot!

Perhaps you wish to distract from your lack of success with your point about tears?

Perhaps you wish to distract from your failure to admit that Buddhism is concerned with spiritual development, a fact which of course is overwhelming evidence for Design…

NB The fact that there is **an afterlife in which injustice is rectified and every tear is wiped away does not imply that every tear is wiped away in every **afterlife.

The misery of those who reject God is self-inflicted…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

The topic of this thread has been to ask if there is overwhelming evidence for Design.

Another question: has there been offered anywhere overwhelming evidence against Design?

If so, where, is that evidence?

 

[tonyrey]

The topic of this thread has been to ask if there is overwhelming evidence for Design.

Another question: has there been offered anywhere overwhelming evidence against Design?

If so, where, is that evidence?

Purposeless suffering has been suggested but without any explanation of the means by which it could be achieved in an immensely complex world.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Tonyrey

Purposeless suffering has been suggested but without any explanation of the means by which it could be achieved in an immensely complex world.

Yes. I suppose that would be the only possible answer. But then it gets theological there too, as you suggest, because only an Omniscient Mind could grasp exactly how purposeless suffering could be. But even purposeless suffering might serve the purpose of giving pleasure if God is evil. An atheist, it seems, would have to be more open to that possibility than anyone.

I don’t see what measurable scientific evidence there could possibly be that Design is not possible in the world. The absence of design can be asserted, but never proven. The presence of laws, at least, can be proven.

The logical consequence of the complete absence of design would be universal chaos. But nowhere in the universe do we find complete chaos. How could Order (the natural laws) flow from Chaos? And why should they if there is no Design?

 

[tonyrey]

Purposeless suffering has been suggested but without any explanation of the means by which it could be achieved in an immensely complex world.

Yes. I suppose that would be the only possible answer. But then it gets theological there too, as you suggest, because only an Omniscient Mind could grasp exactly how purposeless suffering could be. But even purposeless suffering might serve the purpose of giving pleasure if God is evil. An atheist, it seems, would have to be more open to that possibility than anyone.

I’m sure not all atheists would agree with you on that last point!

I don’t see what measurable scientific evidence there could possibly be that Design is not possible in the world. The absence of design can be asserted, but never proven. The presence of laws, at least, can be proven.

The usual rejoinder is that the abundance of scientific explanations excludes the need for other explanations - overlooking the need for explanations of scientific explanations.

The logical consequence of the complete absence of design would be universal chaos. But nowhere in the universe do we find complete chaos. How could Order (the natural laws) flow from Chaos? And why should they if there is no Design?

A devil’s advocate would say there is no obvious reason why there should be order rather than chaos in the first place. It is **logically **possible but so improbable it is not worth considering.

In the realm of possibility there are far fewer orderly than chaotic universes. Chaos is lawless whereas order stems from laws: there is anarchy on the one hand and specified complexity on the other.

For me the conclusive argument is that reasoning must have an orderly origin because it is orderly from start to finish. The laws of thought and the principles of logic are the antithesis of chaos. To regard truth as “an isomorphism of atomic particles” - as one materialist on this forum did - is the most desperate ploy I have ever come across. It reveals the absurd extremes to which sceptics will go. Rejecting the primacy of reason destroys their own credibility…

 

[tonyrey]

In the realm of possibility there are far fewer orderly than chaotic universes. Chaos is lawless whereas order stems from laws: there is anarchy on the one hand and specified complexity on the other.

For the benefit of those who are not used to thinking about possibilties:

1. We are not entitled to assume this is the only possible universe.
2. There is no reason to believe the laws of nature couldn’t be different.
3. There is nothing in the universe that is essential.
4. The fact that things exist doesn’t imply that they must exist.
5. The universe itself need not exist.
6. The universe could be entirely different.
7. There are an immense number of ways in which the universe could be different.
8. The immense majority of those ways are disorderly.
9. The larger the universe the greater the amount of possible disorder.
10. The larger the universe the greater the improbability that it is orderly.
11. Events in this universe can be predicted with extreme accuracy.
12. Extremely accurate predictions imply a high degree of order.
13. A highly orderly universe is immensely improbable when there are immensely more disorderly alternatives.
14. The most reasonable explanation is that a highly orderly universe has a rational origin.
15. In other words the immense number of atomic particles in the universe could be distributed in an inconceivable number of ways, the vast majority of which are chaotic unless they are arranged for specific purposes…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

tonyrey
**
14. The most reasonable explanation is that a highly orderly universe has a rational origin.**

You are in good rational company.

Isaac Newton: Laws of Thermodynamics, Optics, etc.
“This most beautiful system [the universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”