Pagan Ceremony incorporated in Mass

[JaneFrances]

I really can not comment on the particulars of the pagan aspects you report to have been incorporated into a Mass for non-Catholic deceased. . .

HOWEVER, as it has been mentioned several times above there are CERTAIN cultural allowances made within Catholicism which benefit not only the particular culture but also the Church as a whole.

AND, from the very beginning of Christianity in the days of the early Church, we see even Bibilical evidence of orthodox Christians (St. Paul to the Greeks, specifically) appealing to the pagan cultures by incorporating certain aspects of their familiar worship and learning. The important thing to keep in mind and look out for is how certain cultural influences may detract from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The purpose and mission of the Church is to bring people to Christ in perfected unity, not uniformity.

 

[LabradorGirl]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello everyone. Still struggling with some things. I volunteer at an inner city church that helps feed, cloth and fellowship with homeless individuals (a.k.a. street people).

I live in Western Canada. Statistically, “Native American” or “First Nations” people make up a big portion - at least where I volunteer. The church is along “skid row” which coincidentally has numerous churches.

When an “inner city” person dies of “First Nation” heritage, the Catholic Church down the street always (as far as I am aware) handles the funeral service, regardless if they were members or not ot attended.

One thing that bothers me is in the Mass a “First Nation’s” ceremony is incorporated into the Mass. It is called a “sweet grass ceremony” (or something like that - if someone knows for sure, please correct me). It involves the burning of some sort of grass and is intended to create smoke or something. This has roots in their heritage (rain dancing, etc. to the gods)

Can anyone explain this, and if it bothers anyone? I am confused over the whole thing and find it kind of creepy - and I mean that with all Charity. Do Masses throughout the world incorporate heritage type things? (I had heard in Bahamas or Barbados that allot of “voodoo” stuff happens but I am sure these are blatant misrepresentations).

Thanks to all those who respond.

Personally I find this wrong because this is a pagan ceremony being performed in what is supposed to be the true mass. The other day I was watching the mass on tv and I actually saw this ‘Burning grass ceremony’ as you call it and I was disgusted and appauled that such a thing was actually happening in the Roman Catholic Church. I never knew the church was in such trouble. This is of course my opinion.

 

[SolaChristo]

Lapsed:

No, it’s quite clearly an Egyptian obelisk, not an Asherah pole.

Again, I have to ask you, don’t you think God is powerful enough to sanctify and make use of previously pagan symbols and practises? The God I believe in certainly is.

The fish symbol, the cross; what of them? The cross has been a sacred sun symbol in nearly every culture. The fish symbol has been sacred to many sea gods, yet these are two of the most Christian symbols of all. God has certainly sanctified them.

What about burnt offerings? A common practise among ancient pagans, yet God specifically directed the Israelites in its form and practise. The very idea of priesthood is certainly pagan enough. Yet there again, in the Bible itself, God sanctifies it for His own purposes.

Take your arguement to its logical conlusion then vodoo dools tarot cards and crystal balls can be “redeemed”

 

[SolaChristo]

tjmiller:

Are there any Catholic counterparts to the Washington Monument?

Just visit Saint Peter’s Square.

My point exactly. St peters Square appears to be a fertility exhibition.

 

[Church_Militant]

LabradorGirl:

Personally I find this wrong because this is a pagan ceremony being performed in what is supposed to be the true mass. The other day I was watching the mass on tv and I actually saw this ‘Burning grass ceremony’ as you call it and I was disgusted and appauled that such a thing was actually happening in the Roman Catholic Church. I never knew the church was in such trouble. This is of course my opinion.

And your opinion would not be founded on the New Testament, as I showed earlier in my post on Sweetgrass. Look at Acts 17. Was St. Paul wrong there?

 

[Church_Militant]

SolaChristo:

Take your arguement to its logical conlusion then vodoo dools tarot cards and crystal balls can be “redeemed”

Do you wear a wedding ring?

Logical conclusion my foot! There is a great deal of difference between the use of sweetgrass incense at a Mass for an Indian and the garbage you just tossed up. Incense has always been a symbol of prayers, and you can find plenty of scripture in both Old and New Testaments to back that up.

 

[Church_Militant]

SolaChristo:

My point exactly. St Peter’s Square appears to be a fertility exhibition.

You really do need to stay off those anti-Catholic websites SC! If you believe that then you’ll believe just about anything, and…as in this case and many others you have made on here, you’d be dead wrong.

The place that you speak of was intentionally designed to symbolize the church waiting with arms wide open for all the sinners in the world to come to Christ. You have been misled and decieved.
Pax tecum,

 

[RyanL]

SolaChristo:

My point exactly. St peters Square appears to be a fertility exhibition.

AWK!! That means Washington D.C. is the heart of pagan worship!!
http://images.atevo.com/images/actual/445.jpg

They must have covens everywhere! Anyone found Bush’s broomstick? Hillary’s pointy hat? There are probably pagan fertility rituals right on the floor of the Senate! I knew I hated politicians, and thankfully SolaChristo’s logic has uncovered the truth!! I bet they have a computer with all the names of Bible Christians in a database so that they can persecute them under the New World Order!

…or maybe this isn’t logical, but only what someone wishes to see…and a rather silly wish, at that…

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[SolaChristo]

SolaChristo:

Take your arguement to its logical conlusion then vodoo dolls tarot cards and crystal balls can be “redeemed”

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Take your arguement to its logical conlusion then vodoo dolls tarot cards and crystal balls can be “redeemed”

They are not inheritantly evil, they are just inanimate objects. Are you a pagan if you have a crystal ball sitting on your coffee table as a conversation piece?

I have a collection of twenty some katchina dolls (eek! pagan idols!) that range from about 3" tall to about 2’ tall, and all I consider them to be are examples of Southwestern Indian art. They make nice decorations.

As to using such things in the Liturgy, they aren’t just supposed to be brought over lock, stock, and barrel. We shouldn’t put katchinas in the Sanctuary, but we could use the Southwestern style of art to portray saints or Christ. We have a mural of the BVM in the basement of my local Tridentine Mass church and it portrays Mary in Indian style costume. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[deb1]

That’s it! This thread has convinced me to give up my pagan ways and I implore all of you to do so also. I want to rid the Christian world of that horrible pagan invention…the pair of pants. All you men run out and put on long, flowing robes. Don’t concern yourself that you will look very odd. We must separate ourselves from the world. If long, flowing robes were good enough for Jesus they are good enough for all of us too.

Really this is silly. Christianity did not invent culture from scratch. A lot of former pagan ways have found themselves into our culture. The only way to avoid them is to dress, eat and act in the manner that Jewish men did in the first century.

 

[Lapsed]

SolaChristo:

Take your arguement to its logical conlusion then vodoo dools tarot cards and crystal balls can be “redeemed”

You don’t believe God is powerful enough to redeem such things if He so chooses? The God I believe in is powerful enough to turn anything in this world to His use and purpose in whatever fashion He chooses. There are many things He has not done this with, like Vodoo dolls and tarot cards, but there are other things He has, like the cross and wedding rings.

Why do you keep limiting the power of God?

 

[Ahimsa]

Lapsed:

You don’t believe God is powerful enough to redeem such things if He so chooses? The God I believe in is powerful enough to turn anything in this world to His use and purpose in whatever fashion He chooses. There are many things He has not done this with, like Vodoo dolls and tarot cards, but there are other things He has, like the cross and wedding rings.

Why do you keep limiting the power of God?

Actually, there is a Christian interpretation of the Tarot, authored by a Christian who also seems to have been Catholic.

 

[Brendan]

Ahimsa:

Actually, there is a Christian interpretation of the Tarot

FYI,

The ‘tarot’ deck is actually a set of Italian suited regular playing cards of the Renassaince era.

In modern times, we use the ‘French’ suit of diamonds, hearts, spades and clubs. The Italians used what we call the "tarot’ deck, swords, wands, cups and stars for card games just as we use a French deck.

And the Spainards had their own set of suits.

The occult use came after the deck was developed. So the deck itself is no more evil than any deck you can buy at the dime store.

 

[otm]

SolaChristo:

Is it the Chruch that turns pagans into Christians?

Considering that the Church is the Body of Christ, yes, it is the Church which turns pagans into Christians - unless you want to take the position that they do it themselves.

If you are splitting hairs, it is the guidance of the Holy Spirit which turns pagans into Christians; but my recollection is that the Holy Spirit works in and through the Church.

 

[otm]

LabradorGirl:

Personally I find this wrong because this is a pagan ceremony being performed in what is supposed to be the true mass. The other day I was watching the mass on tv and I actually saw this ‘Burning grass ceremony’ as you call it and I was disgusted and appauled that such a thing was actually happening in the Roman Catholic Church. I never knew the church was in such trouble. This is of course my opinion.

Well, being 15, you are entitled to your opinion. But would you care to distinguish between burning grass and burning incense? and would you care to explain how you decided that what was done during the Mass was a pagan act? Those two questions are interrelated.

 

[otm]

Sola Christo: I suggest you read about the symbols and the meaning behind them on the picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. You seem to be mighty upset about the use of what are pagan symbols; the symbols on her robe are most pointedly pagan symbols. If you are the least inclined to believe that the picture is miraculously produced (and not credible evidence has been produced to explain otherwise), then how would you be upset if Mary, the Mother of our Christ, used pagan symbols to cause the conversion of over 1,000,000 pagans to Catholicism?

 

[Lapsed]

Brendan:

FYI,

The ‘tarot’ deck is actually a set of Italian suited regular playing cards of the Renassaince era.

In modern times, we use the ‘French’ suit of diamonds, hearts, spades and clubs. The Italians used what we call the "tarot’ deck, swords, wands, cups and stars for card games just as we use a French deck.

And the Spainards had their own set of suits.

The occult use came after the deck was developed. So the deck itself is no more evil than any deck you can buy at the dime store.

What we know as the tarot deck today is actually a synthesis of an occult tradition with playing cards.

The Major Arcana of the tarot has no relation to common playing cards and is of uncertain origin, though there are several legendary ones. The Minor Arcana, featuring the suits of wands, blades, cups and coins (or pentacles) arose with the incoporation of playing cards into the tarot. The true tarot cards, the Major Arcana, consisting of such cards as the Fool, Strength, Death, the Tower, etc. appear to have always been used for either divination or mystery instruction and likely both.

 

[Church_Militant]

Originally Posted by SolaChristo
Take your arguement to its logical conlusion then vodoo dolls tarot cards and crystal balls can be “redeemed”

Originally Posted by Church Militant
Do you wear a wedding ring?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello everyone. Still struggling with some things. I volunteer at an inner city church that helps feed, cloth and fellowship with homeless individuals (a.k.a. street people).

I live in Western Canada. Statistically, “Native American” or “First Nations” people make up a big portion - at least where I volunteer. The church is along “skid row” which coincidentally has numerous churches.

When an “inner city” person dies of “First Nation” heritage, the Catholic Church down the street always (as far as I am aware) handles the funeral service, regardless if they were members or not ot attended.

One thing that bothers me is in the Mass a “First Nation’s” ceremony is incorporated into the Mass. It is called a “sweet grass ceremony” (or something like that - if someone knows for sure, please correct me). It involves the burning of some sort of grass and is intended to create smoke or something. This has roots in their heritage (rain dancing, etc. to the gods)

Can anyone explain this, and if it bothers anyone? I am confused over the whole thing and find it kind of creepy - and I mean that with all Charity. Do Masses throughout the world incorporate heritage type things? (I had heard in Bahamas or Barbados that allot of “voodoo” stuff happens but I am sure these are blatant misrepresentations).

Thanks to all those who respond.

Is there anything positively anti-Christian in this ?​

It may be the kind of thing that is allowed as an example of “inculturation”. ##