Pagan Ceremony incorporated in Mass

[Sean_O_L]

14. Clement XIV {247th P.} suppressed the Jesuits on Aug.
16, 1773 “perpetually” in his Bull *Dominus ac Redemptor *
noster.
15. Pius VI {248th P.} In deference to the Bourbon courts, he
tried to put pressure on Frederick II of Prussia and
Catherine II of Russia, in whose domains many Jesuits had
found refuge, to apply Clement XIV’s brief of suppression;
but he failed to persuade Catherine, who set up a noviciate
for Jesuits in 1780. In 1783-4 he gave secret approval to the
continued existence of Jesuits in Russia.
16. Pius VII {249th P.}, in Solicitudo Omnium Ecclesiarum of
Aug. 7, 1814, RESTORED THE JESUITS AFTER 40
YEARS OF “PERPETUAL” DISSOLUTION!!! Years earlier
(1801 and 1804) he had regularised their existence in
Russia and Naples. Cardinal Manning very much disliked
them.
17. Pius XII {258th P.} 1939: The Sacred Congregation of
Propaganda reversed Clement XI’s decision on the Chinese
rites.

**Lesson: **
Perpetuity lasts only so long as he of equal authority (that is, a NOW reigning pope) sanctions the act of his predecessor: for each successor of St Peter possesses the fullness of the Power of the Keys.

Of course, this also applies to the Bull “Quo Primum” of Pope Pius V - which was derogated by Pope Paul VI.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

In my former diocese (Gallup, New Mexico), the majority population were Native American (Navajo and Zuni). They incorporated native cultural and RELIGIOUS practices into the Mass. Some not so bad (maybe, I never could decide), like burning the incense in a bowl and wafting it around the altar with an eagle feather. How is that different from a swinging censor? But here are somethings that are troublesome, IMHO:

The use of corn pollen to bless and sanctify during the Mass, usually done by a medicine man (a “singer”). This is completely pagan, as it was “taught” to them by Changing Woman, a Navajo deity (one of the “Holy Ones”). The concept of the singer as a healer and a restorer of balance is also completely out of bounds.

 I sponsored a friend of mine through RCIA.  The leader put together a retreat which was supposed to feature us turning to each direction and greeting the four directions or the four winds, I can't remember which, in such a way that they were personified.  I refused and got accused of being a "typical white male with a pre-Vatican II mindset" (however, the rector of the Cathedral vetoed that particular little exercise).

 It was possible in this diocese to be a cacique (a priest) in one of the Zuni Kiva societies and still a Catholic in good standing.  I always wondered how it was that the bishops in Hatii were lambasting voodoo with such vigor, but here in the US, this stuff was ignored.  I see a very real danger in this kind of syncretism.  You can't add Jesus to your old religious practice.  He just can't be recruited to stand alongside other gods.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SolaChristo:

This is a point of contention between Catholics and many other Christians. Even Jews and Muslims have a hard time with this. Claiming that pagan influences in the church are sanctified flies in the face of what sanctification means. Im not going to say much more because then Ill be labeled an antiCatholic and banned from this site other to say the pagan influences run deep.

Sorry, doesn’t santification mean “to make holy?” What practices do you find a concern?

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Why? This seems nothing but bizarre cultural imperialism to me. One of the reasons I’m not a Catholic is that even though the Catholic Church is trying to renounce your arrogant and small-minded attitude, too much of it remains.

While I think it is obviously fine to incorporate other cultural aspects into Catholicism, I do also think (IMO) that there is something “superior” about Western culture. Roman Catholicism nutured western culture, the Catholic Church had a hand in what made it great. Many of the greatest artists, the most learned thinkers, holiest men and women were products as well as makers of what we call “Western culture”.

 

[SolaChristo]

JKirkLVNV:

Sorry, doesn’t santification mean “to make holy?” What practices do you find a concern?

To set aspart to seperate from.
We are called to be in this world not of it. To be seperated from sin and unholiness.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SolaChristo:

To set aspart to seperate from.
We are called to be in this world not of it. To be seperated from sin and unholiness.

Yes, I understand all of that, now what practices are you particularly concerned about?

 

[SolaChristo]

JKirkLVNV:

Yes, I understand all of that, now what practices are you particularly concerned about?

This is a point of contention between Catholics and many other Christians. Even Jews and Muslims have a hard time with this. Claiming that pagan influences in the church are sanctified flies in the face of what sanctification means. Im not going to say much more because then Ill be labeled an antiCatholic and banned from this site other to say the pagan influences run deep.

 

[Thal59]

This is a point of contention between Catholics and many other Christians. Even Jews and Muslims have a hard time with this. Claiming that pagan influences in the church are sanctified flies in the face of what sanctification means. Im not going to say much more because then Ill be labeled an antiCatholic and banned from this site other to say the pagan influences run deep.

Many things have pagan origins. Written languages, alphabets, writing on stone tablets or parchments. Is God pagan because He wrote the Ten Commandments on stone from right to left? (Originated by the Summerians.)

Abraham and Melchisedek offered bread and wine. Salem was a Chanaanite city at that time, and many pagan countries had harvest festivals before the time of Abraham in which they celebrated with bread from the wheat harvest, and new wine from the newly harvested grapes.

Circumcision was practiced in Babylon, Persian, and to a lesser degree even in Egypt before it was used by the Jews.

Jerusalem is called the holy city, yet it was the pagan city Jebus for 450 years before it became the New Salem. (Jerusalem.)

It is of absolutely no importance what a tradition or practice’s origin was, the question is what is the motive for it now. “What God has declared clean, let no man call unclean.”

Thal59

 

[JKirkLVNV]

This is a point of contention between Catholics and many other Christians. Even Jews and Muslims have a hard time with this. Claiming that pagan influences in the church are sanctified flies in the face of what sanctification means. Im not going to say much more because then Ill be labeled an antiCatholic and banned from this site other to say the pagan influences run deep.

Not if you phrase it correctly and respectfully as in: “I’ve been told…” or “how do you respond to the charge that…” This site is about apologetics. It exists to extend Catholic teaching. People are happy to clarify what is unclear. I was raised a Southern Baptist, there are vast misconceptions about the Church. We want to clear those things up.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

This is a point of contention between Catholics and many other Christians. Even Jews and Muslims have a hard time with this. Claiming that pagan influences in the church are sanctified flies in the face of what sanctification means. Im not going to say much more because then Ill be labeled an antiCatholic and banned from this site other to say the pagan influences run deep.

One ought to understand that just as the Church can turn pagans into Christians, the Church can take a pagan symbol (e.g. wedding rings) and strip them of their pagan significance, attaching instead a Christian meaning. If this bothers some people, so be it. Wedding rings are rarely understood in their pagan signficance as they used to be, but instead are signs of the marital bond.

Koine Greek was PAGAN, but God inspired the writers of the NT to draw good from this PAGAN language.

 

[tjmiller]

To the OP:
As a Scout Leader, I have become very familiar with certain elements of Native American history and culture. There is no substantial difference between the use of sweetgrass and the use of traditional incenses. I use it myself, and highly recommend its use in the home! If you try it, you will see what I mean.

The bundles of sweetgrass are frequently made - as also are the “smudge sticks” of pinon, juniper, etc. - by very devout Catholic “Indians”, who weave them with much prayer, as a prayer, for use in prayer. (I find it very inspiring - and you won’t get much more “traditional” and “conservatively” faithfully Roman Catholic than I am.) This is not to say that they cannot be used in a damnable pagan manner…

Whether or not sweetgrass is appropriate in the Mass is a different matter altogether, but please be assured that there is nothing wrong, in se et per se, with sweetgrass - any more than calling the fifth day of the week “Thursday” (Thor’s Day) is wrong!

 

[SolaChristo]

itsjustdave1988:

One ought to understand that just as the Church can turn pagans into Christians, the Church can take a pagan symbol (e.g. wedding rings) and strip them of their pagan significance, attaching instead a Christian meaning. If this bothers some people, so be it. Wedding rings are rarely understood in their pagan signficance as they used to be, but instead are signs of the marital bond.

Koine Greek was PAGAN, but God inspired the writers of the NT to draw good from this PAGAN language.

Is it the Chruch that turns pagans into Christians?

 

[SolaChristo]

Thal59:

Many things have pagan origins. Written languages, alphabets, writing on stone tablets or parchments. Is God pagan because He wrote the Ten Commandments on stone from right to left? (Originated by the Summerians.)

Abraham and Melchisedek offered bread and wine. Salem was a Chanaanite city at that time, and many pagan countries had harvest festivals before the time of Abraham in which they celebrated with bread from the wheat harvest, and new wine from the newly harvested grapes.

Circumcision was practiced in Babylon, Persian, and to a lesser degree even in Egypt before it was used by the Jews.

Jerusalem is called the holy city, yet it was the pagan city Jebus for 450 years before it became the New Salem. (Jerusalem.)

It is of absolutely no importance what a tradition or practice’s origin was, the question is what is the motive for it now. “What God has declared clean, let no man call unclean.”

Thal59

Are we not the “called out ones” (saints)?
Why haveing been called out and seperated from would we wish to return?
Is not the Washington Monument is DC a replica of an asherah pole? I know this is a secular monument but are there any in the RCC that are similar?
By foresaking the appointed times and feasts of the Lord to “reclaim” a pagan holiday is this right in the sight of God?
I think not.
I could go on and on but know you will claim that there is nothing wrong with this and I just dont understand. My contention is I understand all too well.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

SolaChristo:

Is it the Chruch that turns pagans into Christians?

Was it the mud that cured the blind man? Or was it Christ through the use of mud that cured the blind man?

Similarly, I believe it is Christ through His visible ecclesia which turns pagans into Christians.

 

[Ahimsa]

It would seem to me, that the only thing not ‘pagan’ is God.

 

[Lapsed]

SolaChristo:

Is not the Washington Monument is DC a replica of an asherah pole? I know this is a secular monument but are there any in the RCC that are similar?

No, it’s quite clearly an Egyptian obelisk, not an Asherah pole.

Again, I have to ask you, don’t you think God is powerful enough to sanctify and make use of previously pagan symbols and practises? The God I believe in certainly is.

The fish symbol, the cross; what of them? The cross has been a sacred sun symbol in nearly every culture. The fish symbol has been sacred to many sea gods, yet these are two of the most Christian symbols of all. God has certainly sanctified them.

What about burnt offerings? A common practise among ancient pagans, yet God specifically directed the Israelites in its form and practise. The very idea of priesthood is certainly pagan enough. Yet there again, in the Bible itself, God sanctifies it for His own purposes.

 

[WynCatholic]

SolaChristo:

Are we not the “called out ones” (saints)?
Why haveing been called out and seperated from would we wish to return?

John 17:13bthese things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

SolaChristo:

Is not the Washington Monument is DC a replica of an asherah pole? I know this is a secular monument but are there any in the RCC that are similar?

SolaChristo:

By foresaking the appointed times and feasts of the Lord to “reclaim” a pagan holiday is this right in the sight of God?

Appointed times and feasts?! SDA?
We have the authority of the church, the Spirit of God

SolaChristo:

I think not.

SolaChristo:

I could go on and on but know you will claim that there is nothing wrong with this and I just dont understand. My contention is I understand all too well.

 

[Liberian]

Malachi,

Actually, it doesn’t really bother me at all. Just because a pagan religion does not have the whole truth (well, to speak plainly, pagan religions are missing huge chunks of the truth) does not mean that they are 100 percent wrong. The exchanging of rings at weddings, for example, is a pagan practice that got Christianized. There is one God who is God, no matter what name different people call on Him under. Burning grass, as long as it is clear that you are calling on the One True God, does not bother me in the least.

• Liberian

 

[AquinasXVI]

Let’s put this in perspective…the cross was a symbol that we can compare to modern times as the electric chair…to take an electric chair and make it a religious symbol would be the most scandalous thing to do, yet Catholicism has embraced the cross, a grim machine of death and turned it gloriously into the central icon of salvation.

Christianity even more, Catholicism has the rightful claim to take in anything it wishes to sanctify from any tradition of the world and lift it up to God.

in XT.

 

[tjmiller]

Are there any Catholic counterparts to the Washington Monument?

Just visit Saint Peter’s Square.