Paganism and Catholic Ritual/Traditons.....Similar?

[BelFarfalla]

You asked for serious discussion. Let’s get past accusations of heresy and blasphemy. My intentions are sincere. I hope yours are too.

Um, it seems to me that you came here accusing Catholics of pagan practices and hence heresy and blasphemy. No one has made such charges against you.
I assume that you are Christian. What denomination do you belong to?

OK BelFarfalla and Mannyfit75, you can calm down now.
BelFarfalla, I went back to your links. I noticed there were only 3 NT references. n the first one, in the Book of Luke, the time period in the setting of Luke 1:9 is during the reign of King Herod the Great and the angelic announcemen of the upcoming birth of John the Baptist to the Zacharias, a priest before God (1:8-13)(Notice Jesus isn’t mentioned here, therefore this portion of Luke is set in the Old Testament time frame).
Your other references were from the book of Revelation. Before we existed, angels existed. Worship to God by His angels was different that what He commanded from his earthly creatures. Did God want incense burned before Him, and harps and trumpets played in His presence? Apparently so…in heaven.
Can you show me where Jesus the Son of God commanded the burning of incense and the playing of music by man for appropriate worship of God in the 4 Gospels?

There are two issues that you raised. The first is if the Catholic Church got the ideas of statues and incense from pagans. The second issue is whether or not if they are valid for use in worship.
And now you throw in yet another topic… The use of music. Let’s look at these issues separately.

You have been shown the biblical verses that show that these were used in worship of God, at God’s instruction long before there was even a Roman empire. The use of statues, incense and music are indeed biblical since all show up in the OT and the NT and have nothing to do with Roman paganism. So the basis of your post is wrong.

As for if the use of these are stated as appropriate for worship of God in the 4 Gospels. The four Gospels are not the only books in the Bible. In Mathew the 3 Kings bring frankincense and myrrh to Jesus. These are gifts to the Messiah.
Matthew 2:11

And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him: and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

I’m not sure that God gave those in heaven separate instructions on how to worship. He told the Jews to use incense, gave them the recipe for it and told them how and when to use it. Seems to me that God gave those on earth and in heaven similar instructions.

The only parts of the OT that are not part of the Christian faith are those which Jesus specifically changed. Such as the dietary laws, execution for sexual sins, etc. Jesus was a Jew if you will recall, he worshiped in the manner of the OT… this is how HE taught the apostles to worship.

Why don’t you share with us your denomination and the things that you do to worship.

 

[BelFarfalla]

We just recovered from two banned Protestant members who just would not listen to our “Catholic Answers” and have made post in the forum that were totally disrespectful to our Catholic faith.

So any new member who is not Catholic, we are very cautious about them. We just hope they come here with an open mind of understanding.

Yep it does make us a bit punchy after a while…

 

[hosemonkey]

Yep it does make us a bit punchy after a while…

I have noticed that protestants and others(moslems) will often come onto a forum with an innocuous-seeming question, seeming to be humbly seeking knowledge and when they get an answer, will blast you with both barrels. Usually about one of the old classic anti-Catholic chesnuts like" Catholics worship Mary," Catholics Pray to the Pope," or some other juvenile drivel. I try very hard to see past it, but it does get old.

 

[blacktiger057]

Well, they are quite similiar and teach the same things, apart that there is a God and Goddess in Wicca and only God in Christainity. All the pagan holidays were turned into Christian ones, too. Yule became Christmas, Samhain became All Saints Day, or Halloween. Christians and pagan religions used to sacrifice things, but ofcourse we don’t anymore. An important note here is that Satanism and Wicca is like comparing Christianity to Satanism. Two totally different things entirely. So yes, Christianity and WIcca are very similiar. We must realize this if we are ever going to become one with God and ourselves.

 

[Curious]

The earliest surviving account of the celebration of the Eucharist or the Mass in Rome is that of Saint Justin Martyr (died c. 165), in chapter 67 of his First Apology [2]:

On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

In chapter 65, Justin Martyr says that the kiss of peace was given before the bread and the wine mixed with water were brought to “the president of the brethren.” The language used was doubtless Greek, except in particular for the Hebrew word “Amen”, whose meaning Justin explains in Greek (γένοιτο), saying that by it “all the people present express their assent” when the president of the brethren “has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings.”

Also, in Chapter 66 of Justin Martyr’s First Apology, he describes the transubstantiation which occurs on the altar: “For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1-20 [A.D. 148]).

:bigyikes:

Good grief. I really MUST stop procrastinating in purchasing an ECF book.

If I order now it should get here right as I start to work.

:banghead:

 

[jmcrae]

:bigyikes:

Good grief. I really MUST stop procrastinating in purchasing an ECF book.

If I order now it should get here right as I start to work.

:banghead:

You should get The Faith of the Early Fathers, by William Jurgens. It’s in three volumes, and you will probably have to order them, but they are just fantastic.

 

[Curious]

You should get The Faith of the Early Fathers, by William Jurgens. It’s in three volumes, and you will probably have to order them, but they are just fantastic.

That’s what I plan on getting. :bounce:

 

[Steel_Arrow]

I know that this has already been addressed, but here goes.

I am not a member of any denomination. The church I belong to is the Church of Christ. Not International, Latter Day, or United…just the Church of Christ.

The traditional Church of Christ does not have an earthly head such as the pope, or the president of the Southern Baptist Conference. Each church or congregation as we refer to it, is autonomous of the others. Each congregation is under the guidance of Elders or Bishops. These men must meet the biblical requirements set down in 1 Timothy 3:1-7. Deacons assist in other areas of work for the Elders. These men too must meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3:8-13.

While one congregation is autonomous of another, it isn’t without problems. One congregation may go into apostasy, I will venture more into this later.

Our form of worship is set forth in the Bible. We are to gather together on the first day of the week (Sunday, in Judism, Saturday was the last day of the week) and worship God, and partake in the Lord’s Supper.

We sing without musical instruments. We adhere to Ephesians 5:17-21 (with specal emphasis on v.19)

We confess our sins before the church asking and receiving their collective help through prayer to God.

We believe in total immersion for baptism. We don’t baptise infants, toddlers or small children. We believe they are innocent and can’t be held responsible for sins when they don’t know what sin is. Therefore, only those who have reached the "age of accountability’ can be baptized. I have seen children of age 7 be baptized. But, this was only done when the child clearly understood the responsibility he or she was taking upon themselves as a Christian.

We speak where the Bible speaks, and we are silent where the Bible is silent. We have no Dogma. The only doctrine we adhere to is the Doctrine of Christ (2 John 9).

We assemble three times a week; twice on Sunday and Wednesday evening. Bible study is conducted Sunday mornings and Wednesday evening. We advocate Bible study. I’m not a theologian by any means, I’m just doing my best to understand the Word of God as He wrote it.

We do find it difficult to understand the vatican’s teachings. We do get the impression that the Catholic Church and its members, care more for Church tradition and its teachings, than the Word of God in the Bible. I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (authorized version by Pope John Paul II). Often, I see assumptions on biblical events (like infants in the Phillipian jailer’s house and Lydia’s house0, the assumption of Mary and transubstantiation.

You have a wonderful forum, but I thought different ideas were welcomed here. You asked me to have an open mind. I hope you will do so as well.

 

[KarenNC]

So yes, Christianity and WIcca are very similiar. We must realize this if we are ever going to become one with God and ourselves.

I believe Steel Arrow is asking a different question, blacktiger. The question I believe s/he is asking is whether Christianity originally adopted the use of incense and religious statuary from the non-Christian religions around them (primarily, therefore, Greek and Roman, with some Egyptian thrown in, given the area and time period), or if their God instructed them to use these things in worship, rather than if there are similarities between Catholic and Neopagan practices today.

So, Christianity could not have adopted anything from Wicca as Wicca did not exist prior to the early to mid 20th century. I would have to say that I see Wicca and Catholicism as being pretty far apart, other than in a fondness for ritual. I will say that I believe that Wicca and other Neopagan religions owe the concept of the priesthood of all believers to the Protestant concept of relationship with deity.

Depending on what you mean when you say Satanism, I might have to disagree with you on whether it is a “different thing entirely” from Christianity. Some meanings of the word, yes, some no.

Also would have to say that the statement that Christians and Neopagans “don’t sacrifice things anymore” needs some clarification. If you mean public ritual slaughter of animals for solely religious purposes, then, yes, most groups do not do this—if we want meat for a sacred meal (the way in which it was used in ancient times) then we can most easily get it from a store. It was the Jews, btw, rather than the Christians, who performed animal sacrifices. Christian teaching is that Jesus was the ultimate blood sacrifice in all senses of the word and so no further blood sacrifices were necessary.

However, though the concept of the purpose and nature of sacrifice differ between the groups, both (most Christians and most Neopagan religions) still engage in activities involving “making sacred or setting aside for God/the Gods” of effort or objects which is the literal meaning of “sacrifice.” Catholics, for instance, have a teaching regarding dedicating one’s suffering or pain to God. I certainly engage in pouring libations and making offerings to my Gods on a regular basis.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Well, they are quite similiar and teach the same things, apart that there is a God and Goddess in Wicca and only God in Christainity. All the pagan holidays were turned into Christian ones, too. Yule became Christmas, Samhain became All Saints Day, or Halloween. Christians and pagan religions used to sacrifice things, but ofcourse we don’t anymore.

None of these holidays have anything to do with Wicca… It did not exist until about the 1920’s.
Christians never sacrificed anything. That is one of the tenants of Christianity… no sacrifices.
Uh, Halloween with jack lanterns, etc is NOT a Christian or more specifically Catholic Holiday. If it were, it would be celebrated in all Catholic communities around the world. It is not.
All Saints’ Day is a holiday to pay respect to the martyrs of Christianity. Prior to 373, Christians paid the respect to different martyrs on the anniversary of their deaths. But there came to be too many martyrs for this. So Christians named one day to show their respect to all martyrs. The first time there is record on this consolidated day of remembrance occurred in Antioch on the Sunday after Pentecost in 373. Now Antioch had no connection at all to the Celts so to say that this had anything to do with the Celts is nonsense.
newadvent.org/cathen/01315a.htm
It is not true that this holiday came from anything pagan. Among the Celts there was an old holiday that had something to do with the dead… so Christian missionaries used that to show the pagans that Christians also had a holiday to respect the dead. Some of the trappings of the pagan holiday were absorbed in the Celtic lands. They were not absorbed in the rest of Christendom. Halloween for example is not celebrated in Italy, the Middle East, Africa, etc. The Catholic communities in these countries celebrate All Saints’ Day. But they are appalled by the things American do for Halloween… the jack lanterns, etc. This type of Halloween became popular in the USA because of the large number of Irish Christians who came to the USA.
That’s the only one of the holidays listed above that I’m going to tackle. The statement that they are pagan holidays absorbed into Christianity is false.

An important note here is that Satanism and Wicca is like comparing Christianity to Satanism. Two totally different things entirely. So yes, Christianity and WIcca are very similiar.

Both are fallacies that Wiccans would like us to believe. There is NO connection between Wicca which is a pagan religion and Christianity.

We must realize this if we are ever going to become one with God and ourselves.

We do not become one with God. To become one with God means that a person would have to become God. This is not going to happen.

 

[hosemonkey]

I know that this has already been addressed, but here goes.

I am not a member of any denomination. The church I belong to is the Church of Christ. Not International, Latter Day, or United…just the Church of Christ.

The traditional Church of Christ does not have an earthly head such as the pope, or the president of the Southern Baptist Conference. Each church or congregation as we refer to it, is autonomous of the others. Each congregation is under the guidance of Elders or Bishops. These men must meet the biblical requirements set down in 1 Timothy 3:1-7. Deacons assist in other areas of work for the Elders. These men too must meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3:8-13.

While one congregation is autonomous of another, it isn’t without problems. One congregation may go into apostasy, I will venture more into this later.

Our form of worship is set forth in the Bible. We are to gather together on the first day of the week (Sunday, in Judism, Saturday was the last day of the week) and worship God, and partake in the Lord’s Supper.

We sing without musical instruments. We adhere to Ephesians 5:17-21 (with specal emphasis on v.19)

We confess our sins before the church asking and receiving their collective help through prayer to God.

We believe in total immersion for baptism. We don’t baptise infants, toddlers or small children. We believe they are innocent and can’t be held responsible for sins when they don’t know what sin is. Therefore, only those who have reached the "age of accountability’ can be baptized. I have seen children of age 7 be baptized. But, this was only done when the child clearly understood the responsibility he or she was taking upon themselves as a Christian.

We speak where the Bible speaks, and we are silent where the Bible is silent. We have no Dogma. The only doctrine we adhere to is the Doctrine of Christ (2 John 9).

We assemble three times a week; twice on Sunday and Wednesday evening. Bible study is conducted Sunday mornings and Wednesday evening. We advocate Bible study. I’m not a theologian by any means, I’m just doing my best to understand the Word of God as He wrote it.

We do find it difficult to understand the vatican’s teachings. We do get the impression that the Catholic Church and its members, care more for Church tradition and its teachings, than the Word of God in the Bible. I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (authorized version by Pope John Paul II). Often, I see assumptions on biblical events (like infants in the Phillipian jailer’s house and Lydia’s house0, the assumption of Mary and transubstantiation.

You have a wonderful forum, but I thought different ideas were welcomed here. You asked me to have an open mind. I hope you will do so as well.

Your church IS merely another protestant denomination. It is of the common or garden variety, similar to Baptists etc, who also are autonomous or stand-alone bodies. Your church has no history prior to the early 19th century. How do you claim the title “Bishop” when you have no legitimate apostolic succession and therefore no valid clergy. Your clergy are essentially self-ordained in the Catholic view. God did not write the Bible. The Bible was written under the inspiration of God by human authors. The Catholic Church gave you the Bible that you believe is the sole rule and guide of your faith(Sola Scriptura) Without the Catholic Church, you would have no Bible. Our minds are generally not open to heresy, but we do try to understand the protestant point of view, while not agreeing with it. Others may state our beliefs using gentler words, but I believe in stating the case up front, so that there is no misunderstanding.

 

[blacktiger057]

Yes, I should have been clearer here. Wicca ofcourse did not exist, but the roots of it and most of it’s traditions go way way back. One of the oldest religions. Wicca is just the new pagan faith. So, yes, my wording was a bit messed up. Sorry about that. What I mean is that their core teachings are similiar, like harm none and don’t kill and love everyone because they have the spark of divine within them. I don’t think inscense was adopted from any religion, just that most religions used it(a common trait). But it is a fact that most of the pagan/Wicca holidays were used for Christian ones. Jesus was born, ofcourse, but for some reason Christians decided to use the date of a pagan holiday to celebrate this…I still don’t know why this is, do any of you?

 

[blacktiger057]

We do not become one with God. To become one with God means that a person would have to become God. This is not going to happen.

I’m sorry, not actually becoming God. But becoming one in where we reunite with him in heaven, which is what we all want.

 

[Mannyfit75]

That’s what I plan on getting. :bounce:

I recomend you buy this book that covers the history of the Mass. It’s called The Early Christian Mass by Mike Aquilina.

I have the Book and I recommend it. I also have Early Church Fathers by Jurgens.

 

[boppaid]

To start with making the font of your post huge is interpreted as YELLING when posting on forums. Please do not yell at us. Even if we are deaf… we can read.

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree. When I first read the OP, I honestly thought to myself, “Finally! A post in a font pleasing to the eye!”

So…to the OP, I say ‘keep it!’. (Unless I’m outvoted, of course. )

 

[blacktiger057]

yeah i like the font too! It would only interperate it as yelling IF YOU MADE WORDS BIGGER THAN THE OTHERS. lol

 

[KarenNC]

** What I mean is that their core teachings are similiar, like harm none and don’t kill and love everyone because they have the spark of divine within them. **

Sorry, blacktiger, going to have to disagree with you on that one as well. Buddhism has this as a core teaching, certainly, and many Neopagan groups do as well. The ancient Indo-European religions and cultures which Gardner drew upon for Wicca most emphatically did not. The myth of the pan-European Neolithic peaceful matriarchal Mother Goddess-worshipping folk is just that, a mythic interpretation. Useful for conveying a desired spiritual truth, perhaps, but not borne out by available archaeololical data (for the record, I see the sacred stories of most religions in the same light). A really good book examining the history of Wicca and the social and philosophical trends that set the stage for the rise of the Neopagan religions in the 20th century is by British historian Ronald Hutton, “Triumph of the Moon.” Well worth reading by anyone who has any interest in Wicca and its origins.

But it is a fact that most of the pagan/Wicca holidays were used for Christian ones. Jesus was born, ofcourse, but for some reason Christians decided to use the date of a pagan holiday to celebrate this…I still don’t know why this is, do any of you?

Your wording is continuing to get in the way of your communication. There is no point in referring to or using the word “Wicca” when discussing any ancient religious practices or events as it simply did not exist at that time, any more than there is a point in talking about whether cell phones would have been useful at the battle of Marathon (Phidippides would have had a very different fate ). Continued references to Wicca in this way will mean folks will focus on that fact and miss the rest of your points. Also, there was no single ancient culture that celebrated all eight of the Wheel of the Year holidays, nor that used all the names applied to them in Wicca. It is a syncretization of Celtic/Gaulish/Germanic/Norse holidays. Convenient for marking the passage of the year and the the seasons and spiritually meaningful in the context of the religions that use the Wheel, admittedly, but not historically authentic. It’s important to acknowledge the difference.

The Catholic Encyclopedia discusses the origins of the Christmas feast and its date here newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm. "The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too. " The article goes into greater detail.

Such syncretization is not inherently evil, nor is it limited to Christianity.

 

[blacktiger057]

What do you mean? The main crede is “As long as you harm none, then do as ye will”.

Anyway, this shows how all religions are connected. What was confusing me for a moment was that ‘pagan’ is a very general term and includes many religions. But we can at least agree on that we are connected in religion by this.

 

[Steel_Arrow]

Your church IS merely another protestant denomination. It is of the common or garden variety, similar to Baptists etc, who also are autonomous or stand-alone bodies. How do you claim the title “Bishop” when you have no legitimate apostolic succession and therefore no valid clergy. Your clergy are essentially self-ordained in the Catholic view. Our minds are generally not open to heresy, but we do try to understand the protestant point of view, while not agreeing with it. Others may state our beliefs using gentler words, but I believe in stating the case up front, so that there is no misunderstanding.

You know Hosemonkey, other members of this forum said they took a dim view of a couple of non-catholics and their (I suppose) “hate posts”. They were banned for their views. I in turn am not desicrating Catholicism. I am only pointing out another view point. Actually, we don’t use the title bishop, just elder. As far a our ministers being self-ordained, many of them have as much Theology training (usually 4 years) as a catholic priest does. Some even obtain their Masters and/or Doctorates in Bible. As far as an apostolic succession goes, please refer to Mark 16:15. Jesus told his apostles to go forth and PREACH THE GOSPEL…, and, the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20; “teachng them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” The key here is to preach and to teach. Being that it appears that the apostles were all martyred, who steppe in to be an apostle in order to have “apostolic succession”?

Again you are wrong about what constitutes a denomination. You have a diocese, an arch-diocese and the Holy See. There are many protestant denominations who have similar hierarchy, but, the Church of Christ does not…period. Do your homework before you start condemning others. It is difficult to enjoy a good, intelligent debate:banghead: when someone is trying to pick a fight. I choose not to fight. That is the Christian way.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I know that this has already been addressed, but here goes.
I am not a member of any denomination. The church I belong to is the Church of Christ. Not International, Latter Day, or United…just the Church of Christ.
The traditional Church of Christ does not have an earthly head such as the pope, or the president of the Southern Baptist Conference. Each church or congregation as we refer to it, is autonomous of the others. Each congregation is under the guidance of Elders or Bishops. These men must meet the biblical requirements set down in 1 Timothy 3:1-7. Deacons assist in other areas of work for the Elders. These men too must meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3:8-13.
While one congregation is autonomous of another, it isn’t without problems. One congregation may go into apostasy, I will venture more into this later.

Your church has a structure, a hierarchy of leaders. While you say that you do not have dogma or doctrine … almost everything you listed doctrine. Sounds like a denomination to me. A denomination is nothing more then a group of people who believe the same thing.

We speak where the Bible speaks, and we are silent where the Bible is silent. We have no Dogma. The only doctrine we adhere to is the Doctrine of Christ (2 John 9)…

What do you mean speak where the bible speaks and silent where it is silent? Give an example of this.

We advocate Bible study. I’m not a theologian by any means, I’m just doing my best to understand the Word of God as He wrote it.
We do find it difficult to understand the vatican’s teachings. We do get the impression that the Catholic Church and its members, care more for Church tradition and its teachings, than the Word of God in the Bible.

I’m sure you do since this is what you are taught. Maybe if you stick around here for a while we can show you that biblical basis of Catholicism.

I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (authorized version by Pope John Paul II). Often, I see assumptions on biblical events (like infants in the Phillipian jailer’s house and Lydia’s house0, the assumption of Mary and transubstantiation.

The CC has arrived at these things through centuries of study by theologians who have educations in the subjects that far exceed that of most people. They also have access to a lot of writings that few others have ever seen. Remember that Jesus never commanded the writing of the Bible. Much of the NT were letters to congregations that were going the wrong way. Much that was right was never written in the bible but instead Jesus taught this to the apostles and the knowledge as been passed along to this day in the Church.

You have a wonderful forum, but I thought different ideas were welcomed here. You asked me to have an open mind. I hope you will do so as well.

Yes this is a wonderful forum. We all need to have open minds. There are many non-Catholics here who are wonderful people. We can have some very good conversations. Sometimes I just read the threads and do not respond as there is a lot to learn here.