Paganism and Catholic Ritual/Traditons.....Similar?

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Again, while Jesus preached during His ministry, He was under the Old Testament laws. Musical instruments were allowed by the Father in this Covenant. But specifically, beginning with the Book of Acts, I cannot find any authorization for use of musical instruments in the worship service. t has been mentioned that the early Christians went underground to participate in the Mass. If true, then instrumental music could not have been used, as it would have been too much of a dead give-away to the Roman soldiers who were hunting them. Why else would they have gone underground except to escape persecution. makes sense, doesn’t it?
Millions of Protestants believe Contraception is o.k. but they cannot show one verse in NT showing Christians using it. There reasoning is since it was not condenmed (for contraception existed back then in the form of herbs or potions) then it must be o.k. (not to mention osas, sola scriptura, sola fide, the bible as God-breathed)

Yet, when Catholics baptize infants, use music in worship or a host of other things they cry blastphemy. The argument beings since its not found in scripture it must be wrong.

Theres a word for this. It starts with an “H” followed by a “Y”… "HYPOCRTITE"

***Just my :twocents: ***
 
I wonder how many protestants and new agers have baseball cards in a collection…graven images of idols …concerning hitting a round object with a stick…for centuries our ancestors ate with their fingers…pagans and christians alike…how shocking…who copied whom? No matter what date of a Catholic holy day…some wag will blurt out…now now that was the sacred day of birch bark…a tree that we worshipped only on that day…etc etc…get the picture…??? the pagans nailed Jesus to a cross…a form of hideous torture and disgrace…Jesus made it holy and we use the crucifix as a reminder of what God has done for us…for He so loved the world…etc etc…(thank my lucky rabbits foot,Im not superstitious…knock on wood)…Nino
 
true it is that I know little of pagans. I can’t even spell ouji, lol. but I draw my opinions from what I do know. I didn’t exactly say demons, I also said spirits. I don’t mean to offend anyone. I know Wicca is just a branch off the Pagan religion like methodist is from christianity. But when you are young and a lady you knew pretty well wants you to call upon a ghost spirit with her and talk to your own grandfather by calling upon him from behind the grave it scares you alot.
Let me assure you that Ouji board use does not figure prominently (ie at all) among the adult Neopagans that I know, and certainly not for the purposes of calling up evil spirits. In fact, the only folks I have actually encountered using such a thing were Christians, usually kids. Since it is marketed as a game, my primary experience with it was also when I was quite young, and the kids wanted to use it because it seemed spooky (like a scary movie or book) and “cool” and they didn’t for a minute believe it could in any way really truly harm them. Could it have? I don’t know, but not a chance I would really care to take.

I have no use for it, personally. It creeps me out, too. If it works, I don’t want it even in my house, because there are lots of beings out there that are not necessarily benevolently inclined toward humanity–beings I have no desire to take notice of me. If it doesn’t, it’s merely a waste of time and I prefer to waste my time in other ways (like playing on the computer 🙂 ).

FYI, it is a common misconception that Wicca and other Neopagan religions are branches of one main cohesive Neopagan religion, like various Christian denominations. Actually, Neopagan is an umbrella term. It encompasses a variety of individual religions that may be as different from each other as Buddhism and Christianity. It’s more akin to talking about Uganda and South Africa rather than Alabama and Nevada. They may both be on the same continent, but they don’t share the same sorts of things states do.
 
When Rome was Christianized, I understand that the Emperor drove out the pagans. Their temples and idols were left behind. Isn’t it true,

No 🙂

The destruction of Roman & Greek & other cults, in Rome & elsewhere, was a lengthy process, & the Imperial decrees against them did not of themselves uproot the older religious ideas - the Emperor Justinian had to outlaw them in the East over 130 years after Theodosius I formally banned them in Rome in 391.

They maintained a shadowy after-existence much as Catholicism did in Scotland after it became obvious that the Reformation had come to stay: which took more than a generation after Catholicism ceased to be the religion of the state in 1560. There are similarities between Scots Calvinism in 1750, & Italian Catholicism in 1750 - but nobody would seriously suggest that St.Alphonsus Liguori (1696-1787) was a Scottish Calvinist, or that John Brown of Haddington was a Catholic.

Yet John Brown & St.Alphonsus have far in common religiously than St. Julius of Rome (336-52) & the pagan senator Symmachus (d. 402) who tried to have the altar of Victory restored to the Senate, & failed because of St.Ambrose of Milan (c.334-374-97). Julius of Rome & Ambrose of Milan were one in faith with one another - but neither agreed with Symmachus. As the writings of all three show.

Ancient pre-Christian religion was tolerant - the intolerance & exclusiveness of Christians helped to make them very unpopular. Which is why so many shrines of other gods were vandalised - they had no time for Mithras, or Isis, or any others. In fact, some Egyptian monks are known to have carried their pious vandalism to the point of murder 😦 - this is not Christian; but neither is it very tolerant of paganism.

It may make sense to accuse the ancient Church of fanatical bigotry - but not of love of paganism. Why did these “pagan Catholics” use basilicas, & not temples of the gods, to worship in ? The principal mosque in Damascus is built over a Church of St.John the Baptist, which was built over a temple to the god Hadad - the Damascene Muslims were not promoting Christianity: so why is it assumed Christians were ?
that the Catholic Church copied the idea of statues from the pagans as holy examples of individuals who lived before them?

The Church in Rome was extremely bigoted 🙂 - it did not regard pre-Christian, heathens as “holy” 🙂 Reading them is one thing - but regarding them as holy is another matter entirely​

People who imagine that the Church in Rome - or anywhere else - was broad-minded enough to think that any but its members could be saved, are woefully mistaken. A large section of opinion was so anti-pagan that it rejected even their literature, as this is full of non-Christian (& so, false) religious ideas.
And didn’t the pagans use incense in their worship, similar to what the Catholics do at Mass?

So did the Jews in the Bible. Why is it assumed that when the three are alike, the Church is influenced not by its Jewish origins, but by pagans ? One could equally well say that because there are many similarities between the ideas in Bible & those outside it, it is “pagan” - St.Paul uses Stoic philosophy: why is he, with his pagan ideas, not cast out of Scripture ? That is not a problem for the Church, but for those who have no understanding of the Bible’s environment. Were he alive today, many “anti-pagans” would avoid him like the plague.​

Is this authorized worship in the manner of; “Thus saith the Lord”, or is this purely a man-made ritual/tradition? 👍

Wrong question - it simplifies too much​

 
**The Church in Rome was extremely bigoted - it did not regard pre-Christian, heathens as “holy” Reading them is one thing - but regarding them as holy is another matter entirely
**

To be fair, I don’t believe Steel Arrow meant that they kept or made statues of non-Christians, but that the practice of making devotional statues or statues of prominent Christian saints, etc, may have come from the Classical culture, as making devotional or commemorative statues was a common practice in the Classical culture, but not, as far as I know, in the Jewish one.

** Wrong question - it simplifies too much **

Most questions dealing with religion (or, indeed, why humans do any particular thing) do.
 
Let me assure you that Ouji board use does not figure prominently (ie at all) among the adult Neopagans that I know, and certainly not for the purposes of calling up evil spirits. In fact, the only folks I have actually encountered using such a thing were Christians, usually kids. Since it is marketed as a game, my primary experience with it was also when I was quite young, and the kids wanted to use it because it seemed spooky (like a scary movie or book) and “cool” and they didn’t for a minute believe it could in any way really truly harm them. Could it have? I don’t know, but not a chance I would really care to take.

I have no use for it, personally. It creeps me out, too. If it works, I don’t want it even in my house, because there are lots of beings out there that are not necessarily benevolently inclined toward humanity–beings I have no desire to take notice of me. If it doesn’t, it’s merely a waste of time and I prefer to waste my time in other ways (like playing on the computer 🙂 ).

FYI, it is a common misconception that Wicca and other Neopagan religions are branches of one main cohesive Neopagan religion, like various Christian denominations. Actually, Neopagan is an umbrella term. It encompasses a variety of individual religions that may be as different from each other as Buddhism and Christianity. It’s more akin to talking about Uganda and South Africa rather than Alabama and Nevada. They may both be on the same continent, but they don’t share the same sorts of things states do.
When I was pagan, we used the “board” all the time – obsessively. We used it to call up spirits we knew were at least predominantly evil (they even threatened us and tried to kill us sometimes) in order to learn more about the immaterial world and to ask for things we wanted. We were sure we were doing good by doing so, whatever sense that makes. 😊
I’m glad it’s over. Praise the Lord, I don’t even want to do that anymore. I’m free!:extrahappy:
 
When I was pagan, we used the “board” all the time – obsessively. We used it to call up spirits we knew were at least predominantly evil (they even threatened us and tried to kill us sometimes) in order to learn more about the immaterial world and to ask for things we wanted. We were sure we were doing good by doing so, whatever sense that makes. 😊
Interesting. It is not something I have encountered, but I have not been formally part of many Wiccan circles, and the ones I have encountered tended to be eclectic rather than traditional. Lots of use of divinatory tools like Tarot cards and runes, but not the Ouija board and not summoning spirits. I would have said that sounds more like ceremonial magic to me (though I do know there is a strong element of ceremonial magic in some strands of Wicca). My own tradition (Hellenic polytheism) is one that inclined much more toward piety and kharis (relationship with the Gods) than attempts at manipulation of spiritual forces—that is considered hubris. There are also lots of other religions under the Neopagan umbrella, so a lot of different approaches exist.

Would you mind if I asked which Neopagan religion you were practicing? Was it a form of Wicca? Was it part of a formal group or larger organization?
 
The Church in Rome was extremely bigoted - it did not regard pre-Christian, heathens as “holy” Reading them is one thing - but regarding them as holy is another matter entirely

To be fair, I don’t believe Steel Arrow meant that they kept or made statues of non-Christians,

Thanks - that does clear things up: for the suggestion has been made.​

but that the practice of making devotional statues or statues of prominent Christian saints, etc, may have come from the Classical culture, as making devotional or commemorative statues was a common practice in the Classical culture, but not, as far as I know, in the Jewish one.

Thanks 🙂 - I think that religious medals are known from archaeological digs to have been used by Christians in the 200s; but statues in the round, no - though the synagogue at Dura Europos (c. 250 AD) does use a lot of representative painting.​

**Wrong question - it simplifies too much **

Most questions dealing with religion (or, indeed, why humans do any particular thing) do.

Indeed - but a lot of the polemic against “the daughters of the whore” (as they are delightfully named by some), as well against their mother (for whom so Rev. 17.5,7) are based on very simple ideas - theologically, a lot of the “non-denoms” are Premillennial Dispensationalists (or Dispensational Premillennialists); & PDs have a very gloomy view of the Church; not just the evil RC pagans, but all Christian churches.​

  • Dispies - will be raptured
  • The rest of “apostate Christendom” - will be “Left Behind”, worship the Beast, & go to Hell.
    Which is a bit rough on Calvinists, who are anti-Dispensational and anti-Papal.
And PDs seem to be so interested in the fulfilment of Biblical prophecy, that they have very little understanding of Church History. “If pagans did it, & Catholics do it - Catholics must be pagan” - the differences tend to be overlooked, & only the similarity seen. That is a problem with Fundamentalism, Protestant Evangelical or other - single similarities are noticed, but the cultural context (& all religions, including Christianity, including Catholicism, are from one POV cultural artefacts) is apt to be ignored.

Blaming Luther for the Reformation is a good example for non-PD over-simplification :o :eek:
 
Interesting. It is not something I have encountered, but I have not been formally part of many Wiccan circles, and the ones I have encountered tended to be eclectic rather than traditional. Lots of use of divinatory tools like Tarot cards and runes, but not the Ouija board and not summoning spirits. I would have said that sounds more like ceremonial magic to me (though I do know there is a strong element of ceremonial magic in some strands of Wicca). My own tradition (Hellenic polytheism) is one that inclined much more toward piety and kharis (relationship with the Gods) than attempts at manipulation of spiritual forces—that is considered hubris. There are also lots of other religions under the Neopagan umbrella, so a lot of different approaches exist.

Would you mind if I asked which Neopagan religion you were practicing? Was it a form of Wicca? Was it part of a formal group or larger organization?
I was practicing in three western US cities in a culture that combined Gardnerian Wicca, Native American ritual, Egyptian/Babylonian practices (some real, most 19th Century romanticism), Nordic and Celtic traditional beliefs, in approximately that order. We believed that all ancient peoples had a part of the truth and that the development of civilization with its comforts and its rational education was an escape from the terrifying reality we assumend was behind the material world around us. we felt that only the brave could become strong enough to learn from and use the unseen rather than having to hide from it in a bourgeois fashion.
 
I was practicing in three western US cities in a culture that combined Gardnerian Wicca, Native American ritual, Egyptian/Babylonian practices (some real, most 19th Century romanticism), Nordic and Celtic traditional beliefs, in approximately that order. We believed that all ancient peoples had a part of the truth and that the development of civilization with its comforts and its rational education was an escape from the terrifying reality we assumend was behind the material world around us. we felt that only the brave could become strong enough to learn from and use the unseen rather than having to hide from it in a bourgeois fashion.
To believe in God and Christ is believing in the unseen, so there is no need to concoct a convoluted belief system. Did other religions and belief systems incorporate some aspects of a greater divine, supernatural truth? Of course, mankind – from the earliest archaeological record, 70k years – has had a spiritual nature. Monotheism is the culmination of assigning that spiritual basis on the divine being, rather than some aspect of nature that baffled a particular culture into place-based, object-based or ancestor-based worship.
 
To believe in God and Christ is believing in the unseen, so there is no need to concoct a convoluted belief system. Did other religions and belief systems incorporate some aspects of a greater divine, supernatural truth? Of course, mankind – from the earliest archaeological record, 70k years – has had a spiritual nature. Monotheism is the culmination of assigning that spiritual basis on the divine being, rather than some aspect of nature that baffled a particular culture into place-based, object-based or ancestor-based worship.
Considering from my viewpoint that Christianity is about as convoluted a belief system as I can imagine I have to smile at that.🙂 I would also have to disagree with the idea that monotheism (of any sort) is the “culmination” of humanity’s spiritual nature. Polytheism is a lot more complex than simply “place-based, object-based or ancestor-based worship.”
 
What we did back then and what I do now are deeply different, though. Then my religion led me to constant fear, rages, drunkenness, sexual promiscuity and a deep emptiness in my heart. Oh, it seemed to help me at first every time I moved to another level of “knowledge”, but in the long run all these problems worsened.
Today, as a Christian, I have a belief system that leads to self-control, sobriety, warmth and love. I don’t fear the future. So, I can see the difference and nothing could ever get me to go back. If only I’d known who God is earlier, I’d have avoided a lot of bad events. But praise God, I know now.
 
What we did back then and what I do now are deeply different, though. Then my religion led me to constant fear, rages, drunkenness, sexual promiscuity and a deep emptiness in my heart. Oh, it seemed to help me at first every time I moved to another level of “knowledge”, but in the long run all these problems worsened.
Today, as a Christian, I have a belief system that leads to self-control, sobriety, warmth and love. I don’t fear the future. So, I can see the difference and nothing could ever get me to go back. If only I’d known who God is earlier, I’d have avoided a lot of bad events. But praise God, I know now.
Indeed, praise God. Praise yourself too, to giving over your inclinations to indulge in self-will to a more fruitful pursuit of turning your will to pursuing God’s will.
 
What we did back then and what I do now are deeply different, though. Then my religion led me to constant fear, rages, drunkenness, sexual promiscuity and a deep emptiness in my heart. Oh, it seemed to help me at first every time I moved to another level of “knowledge”, but in the long run all these problems worsened.
Today, as a Christian, I have a belief system that leads to self-control, sobriety, warmth and love. I don’t fear the future. So, I can see the difference and nothing could ever get me to go back. If only I’d known who God is earlier, I’d have avoided a lot of bad events. But praise God, I know now.
I am glad you have found your home. I have had the opposite experience. When I moved into my religion it helped me have more compassion, connectedness, calmness, confidence, groundedness and peace than I have found anywhere else, including in the 30 years that I attempted with every fiber of my being to be a Christian. I can now function out of a position of peace, strength and wholeness that I have never had before. My experience has not been one of self-indulgence or hedonism at all. In fact, it has called me to a greater awareness of my responsibility for my own actions and the effects of those actions on others.

There is a story in Judaism about converts being “Jewish souls born into Gentile bodies.” Perhaps that’s what all converts ultimately are. Perhaps I was a Neopagan soul born into a Christian body. It would certainly explain the phrase that I hear over and over from converts to any religion–“I felt like I was finally coming home.” Certainly in retrospect I can see that I have been moving on this path since before I was 10 years old. It just took me a long time to listen hard enough to discover my destination.
 
No need to get Mother Superior. I was whacked enough with the ruler in grade school!

I’ve got nothing against candles. I just question its use for spiritual guidance. I know Jesus is the light of the world, as well as a candle provides light for one to see. I see that as the practical use of the candle. For 39 years I was a catholic. I began to go beyond the teachings of the RCC and like Saul who was blinded, his sight returned like “scales falling from his eyes”. It is difficult to explain. I too was indoctrinated thorougly in the Teachings of the Church. Things changed for me. :hmmm:
I’ll let you know something, SA. I wasn’t the most devout Catholic for the longest time. I was much a secular person.

Strangely things started happening to me.

I was asked by a Jewish man why christians had so many versions of the bible. I didn’t know.

I had a chance meeting with an Evangelical seminary student. He asked me questions about the Catholic faith. I didn’t know.

Then the big thing happened. I started working with some Jehovah’s Witnesses. I worked with them for several years. They had accusations I had never heard. Catholicism is pagan; there is no hell; Catholics worship statues; the list goes on.

It forced me to look at the Catholic religion, the first real look I had ever had. I found things I had never known existed.

For instance, I had no idea that other Catholic churches existed. The Copts, Orthodox, Assyrians, Cyprians, Antiochans, et al. were all “catholic”. I didn’t even know what the word “catholic” meant.

I really had to investigate. Really in depth. I began to read, sometimes for hours - days! I still do.

What happened after many hours of research is this - I became convinced of the reality of Catholicism. Believe me when I tell you, I was ready for picking by anyone who could show me that catholicism was wrong.

The most profound thing I found that I didn’t know existed are the Church Fathers and thier writings. I tell you I had no idea they existed. I thought the bible was all there was to early writings.

I started reading the Fathers and do you know what I found? I ran headlong into the Catholic Church. All of the belief structure was there: the Eucharist; priests; bishops; religious artwork; Anointing of the sick; confession to a priest; apostolic succession; and the list goes on.

Not only was I convinced that the Catholic Church was the right church, but I got the JW’s to start questioning thier beliefs just by showing them what I had found! The truth is hard to go around.

So what did I discover about the word “catholic”? It is a conjunction of the Greek words “Kata” and “Holos”. These words appear together in the bible at Acts 9:31. The words taken alone mean respectively - Kata = “alone, among” and Holos = “whole, all”. Taken together in translation they mean “each throughout” literally.

But something else became evident. The bible contains letters to other churches and the Church Fathers wrote letters to other churches. Each were written with a specific purpose in mind - to unify the faith.

You see, each of the letters were distributed among ALL of the churches so that everyone would get the same message. This is true of the biblical letters as well as the letters of the Fathers. Each had thier letters distributed for the purpose of UNIFYING THE FAITH.

So, when you take the literal meaning of the word “catholic” and apply it to the churches which all have the information contained in the letters, an extended meaning becomes apparent. The word “catholic” as applied to all these ancient churches means “All the particular churches who have the same faith.”

So, looking at the ancient churches we can see that this meaning is true. All of the ancient churches practiced the same religion. Bishops, priests, apostolic succession, sacraments, et al, were practiced by all of the churches AND STILL ARE TODAY. All claim that the faith comes directly from Christ through His apostles. Indeed, the fundimental forms of all these Traditions are found in the bible and are commanded by Christ or the apostles. Every one of them.

This “put the nail in the coffin” for me. No reformist form of christianity even comes close.

So why the Roman Catholic Church? It is the one which Paul addressed in his Letter to the Romans. It is the one that is found in the last few chapters of Acts. It is the Church that has biblical roots and biblical verification.

I belong to that church. For me, there is no other. I am convinced that I have found the true church of Christ.

Subrosa
 
Good post, Subrosa.👍
What I find hard to understand is how did SteelArrow , having been a Catholic for 39 years, miss all the riches of Catholic worship and belief. Was he a passive bystander for all those years or did he honestly inquire into the Catholic faith and what it teaches us. Going from the Church that Christ Himself founded into the dry, spare desert of protestantism is truly incomprehensible to me.
 
quote=Steel Arrow;2371512]
The traditional Church of Christ does not have an earthly head such as the pope, or the president of the Southern Baptist Conference. Each church or congregation as we refer to it, is autonomous of the others. Each congregation is under the guidance of Elders or Bishops. These men must meet the biblical requirements set down in 1 Timothy 3:1-7. Deacons assist in other areas of work for the Elders. These men too must meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3:8-13.
.👋
How can you have valid Bishops if your church is almost 2000 years disconnected from the Apostles?
 
How can you have valid Bishops if your church is almost 2000 years disconnected from the Apostles?
They cannot have valid Bishops OR valid clergy. They have no authority, save what they confer upon themselves.
 
They cannot have valid Bishops OR valid clergy. They have no authority, save what they confer upon themselves.
Yes, they have their unholy trinity: Wesley, Luther and Calvin. That is sufficient in their view.
 
Yes, they have their unholy trinity: Wesley, Luther and Calvin. That is sufficient in their view.
Quantum, with all due respect, the three people you speak of had thier reasons for doing what they did.

Look at the reality of life in the 1500’s. The Pope was a dictator, the bishops enforced his rule, the Inquizition was burning people, among other truly horrible things.

Anyone who was affected by this held a bitter hatred of the Church. Calvin especially was affected by the burning death of John Wesley. (Wesley was burned as a heretic for writing a bible in English using some apocryphal books).

Please reflect on what I have said. Wesley, Luther and Calvin saw the Church in a different light.

Sub
 
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