Paganism and Catholic Ritual/Traditons.....Similar?

[Subrosa]

To be fair, I don’t believe Steel Arrow meant that they kept or made statues of non-Christians, but that the practice of making devotional statues or statues of prominent Christian saints, etc, may have come from the Classical culture, as making devotional or commemorative statues was a common practice in the Classical culture, but not, as far as I know, in the Jewish one.

Karen, this is insightful. I made the same argument earlier in the thread (pg 1) and posted a few graphics to support my point.

You are correct in stating that the culture was not Jewish. It is definately Roman. In other christian churches a different culture is evident. The Greek Orthodox make use of icons extensively. These paintings are considered to be “windows into heaven”. Some are credited with many miracles.

The first iconist is, according to tradition, Luke, who write both the Gospel and Acts. Again, according to tradition, several of his original icons still exist. The Black Madonna of Poland is an example.

Sub

 

[KarenNC]

Karen, this is insightful. I made the same argument earlier in the thread (pg 1) and posted a few graphics to support my point.

Yes, I think we both made the point early on (see my first post on the thread), but it got quickly fairly buried, I think.

**You are correct in stating that the culture was not Jewish. It is definately Roman. In other christian churches a different culture is evident. The Greek Orthodox make use of icons extensively. These paintings are considered to be “windows into heaven”. Some are credited with many miracles.

The first iconist is, according to tradition, Luke, who write both the Gospel and Acts. Again, according to tradition, several of his original icons still exist. The Black Madonna of Poland is an example.**

The Church was very influenced by the Hellenistic and Roman world in which it developed, influenced in more than just art forms. Judaism of the period was also likewise affected, so it is not terribly surprising. As the Church spread, you are absolutely correct that the local congregations took on a “flavor” of their local culture. This still continues today–look at the different “flavor” of American Catholicism compared to, say, Russian Orthodox or Catholicism in a Latin American country.

 

[Subrosa]

Hi SA -

When I look at a statue of a past president, I usually have admiration for his accomplishments. When I look upon a monument like Iwo Jima, I feel an awe of respect come over me.

As we all do. I brought my son to Washington DC last year and we went by the Iwo Jima statue. Awesome, just awesome.

But, I do not kneel before or bow to these images. I do not look upon them in reverential prayer or contemplation, pleading for some type of spiritual intervention on my behalf. I believe in prayer to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.

The early christians prayed for more than that reason. Very profound are the earliest liturgies. One of the earliest is the Liturgy of the Holy Apostle Mark. Mark was a disciple (student) of Peter and went to Alexandria, Egypt after Peter’s martyrdom. Mark founded the Coptic Church.

Here’s a link…catholicculture.org/library/fathers/view.cfm?recnum=1876. Please keep in mind that this liturgy was put into practice during the Apostolic era.

I’ll pick out a few things as examples of early prayer.

1. The use of incense.

The Priest, before the Gospel is read, offers incense, and says:— Accept at Thy holy, heavenly, and reasonable altar, O Lord, the incense we offer in presence of Thy sacred glory. Send down upon us in return the grace of Thy Holy Spirit, for Thou art blessed, and let Thy glory encircle us.

1. The Altar.

The holy things are carried to the altar, and the Priest prays thus:— O holy, highest, awe-inspiring God, who dwellest among the saints, sanctify us, and deem us worthy of Thy reverend priesthood. Bring us to Thy precious altar with a good conscience, and cleanse our hearts from all pollution. Drive away from us all unholy thoughts, and sanctify our souls and minds. Grant that, with reverence of Thee, we may perform the service of our holy fathers, and propitiate Thy presence through all time; for Thou art He who blesseth and sanctifieth all things, and to Thee we ascribe glory and thanks.

1. The Sign of the Cross.

In like manner also, as after the Creed, he makes the sign of the cross upon the People, and says aloud: The Lord be with all.

1. The mass is a sacrifice.

We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to Thee, O Lord; for great is Thy name among all peoples, and in all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Thy holy name.

1. Prayers for the dead and rememberence of Mary the virgin.

O Lord our God, give peace to the souls of our fathers and brethren who have fallen asleep in Jesus, remembering our forefathers of old, our fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, bishops, and the souls of all the holy and just men who have died in the Lord.

Especially remember those whose memory we this day celebrate, and our holy father Mark, the apostle and evangelist, who has shown us the way of salvation.

Hail! thou art highly favoured; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou hast brought forth the Saviour of our souls. Aloud: Especially remember our all-holy, pure, and blessed Lady, Mary the Virgin Mother of God.

1. The bread on the altar is consecrated into the Body of Christ.

Send down upon us also and upon this bread and upon these chalices Thy Holy Spirit, that by His all-powerful and divine influence He may sanctify and consecrate them, and make this bread the body.

All this was done while some of the apostles were still alive.

You say it was a natural transition for early christians to adopt the culture around them. Then it is true then, that the RCC, in order to appease and bring the pagans into the church,

Think carefully. At the very beginning of christianity virtually all people coming into the church were either jewish or pagan. Not just the Roman church, but all of christianity started this way. They would have adapted some pagan or jewish practices to the new religion. The Hebrew liturgy especially had a great influence on the christian form of worship. See Acts 2:46.

officially adopted some of their holidays, i.e. Christmas, Halloween and Easter.

Christmas was established originally in the Coptic Church. Haloween is not a christian feast, but in fact it is the day after - “All Saints Day” on November 1st. Haloween is, or All Hallows Eve, is what is left over from a celtic pagan feast. Easter gets it’s name from a pagan holiday, also. In all these cases the early christians put these feasts where they are in order to REPLACE the pagan holiday in order to defeat paganism.

more…

 

[Subrosa]

Hi SA -

When I look at a statue of a past president, I usually have admiration for his accomplishments. When I look upon a monument like Iwo Jima, I feel an awe of respect come over me.

As we all do. I brought my son to Washington DC last year and we went by the Iwo Jima statue. Awesome, just awesome.

But, I do not kneel before or bow to these images. I do not look upon them in reverential prayer or contemplation, pleading for some type of spiritual intervention on my behalf. I believe in prayer to God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ.

The early christians prayed for more than that reason. Very profound are the earliest liturgies. One of the earliest is the Liturgy of the Holy Apostle Mark. Mark was a disciple (student) of Peter and went to Alexandria, Egypt after Peter’s martyrdom. Mark founded the Coptic Church.

Here’s a link…catholicculture.org/library/fathers/view.cfm?recnum=1876. Please keep in mind that this liturgy was put into practice during the Apostolic era.

I’ll pick out a few things as examples of early prayer.

1. The use of incense.

The Priest, before the Gospel is read, offers incense, and says:— Accept at Thy holy, heavenly, and reasonable altar, O Lord, the incense we offer in presence of Thy sacred glory. Send down upon us in return the grace of Thy Holy Spirit, for Thou art blessed, and let Thy glory encircle us.

1. The Altar.

The holy things are carried to the altar, and the Priest prays thus:— O holy, highest, awe-inspiring God, who dwellest among the saints, sanctify us, and deem us worthy of Thy reverend priesthood. Bring us to Thy precious altar with a good conscience, and cleanse our hearts from all pollution. Drive away from us all unholy thoughts, and sanctify our souls and minds. Grant that, with reverence of Thee, we may perform the service of our holy fathers, and propitiate Thy presence through all time; for Thou art He who blesseth and sanctifieth all things, and to Thee we ascribe glory and thanks.

1. The Sign of the Cross.

In like manner also, as after the Creed, he makes the sign of the cross upon the People, and says aloud: The Lord be with all.

1. The mass is a sacrifice.

We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to Thee, O Lord; for great is Thy name among all peoples, and in all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Thy holy name.

1. Prayers for the dead and rememberence of Mary the virgin.

O Lord our God, give peace to the souls of our fathers and brethren who have fallen asleep in Jesus, remembering our forefathers of old, our fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, bishops, and the souls of all the holy and just men who have died in the Lord.

Especially remember those whose memory we this day celebrate, and our holy father Mark, the apostle and evangelist, who has shown us the way of salvation.

Hail! thou art highly favoured; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, because thou hast brought forth the Saviour of our souls. Aloud: Especially remember our all-holy, pure, and blessed Lady, Mary the Virgin Mother of God.

1. The bread on the altar is consecrated into the Body of Christ.

Send down upon us also and upon this bread and upon these chalices Thy Holy Spirit, that by His all-powerful and divine influence He may sanctify and consecrate them, and make this bread the body.

All this was done while some of the apostles were still alive.

You say it was a natural transition for early christians to adopt the culture around them. Then it is true then, that the RCC, in order to appease and bring the pagans into the church,

Think carefully. At the very beginning of christianity virtually all people coming into the church were either jewish or pagan. Not just the Roman church, but all of christianity started this way. They would have adapted some pagan or jewish practices to the new religion. The Hebrew liturgy especially had a great influence on the christian form of worship. See Acts 2:46.

officially adopted some of their holidays, i.e. Christmas, Halloween and Easter.

Christmas was established originally in the Coptic Church. Haloween is not a christian feast, but in fact it is the day after - “All Saints Day” on November 1st. Haloween, or All Hallows Eve, is what is left over from a celtic pagan feast. Easter gets it’s name from a pagan holiday, also. In all these cases the early christians put these feasts where they are in order to REPLACE the pagan holiday in order to defeat paganism.

more…

 

[Subrosa]

I don’t believe that Christianity was meant to be a mismash of faiths.

It wasn’t. The word “catholic” is a testament to that truth.

If traditions were the driving force behind the formation of Christianity, male children would still have been circumsized on the 8th day of their birth.

Baptism replaces circumcision. Please note that the tradition was not ended, but changed in the same way christianity changed judaism.

Colossians 2:11-12 “And in Him, you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without human hands, in the removal of the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Christ in baptism, in which you which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, Who raised Him from the dead…”

Your O.T. reference on incense I accept. But, under the New Covenant (N.T.) I don’t see mention of its use in Christian worship in the Bible. You made some good points. :tiphat:

New testament use of incense is found in Revelation 8:3-5. Also found in this passage are found prayers of intercession given by saints in heaven. The Revelation is given to John by Christ Himself (Rev 1:1). Is Christ wrong to reference these things? No. Indeed Christ was telling John to use these things in worship. Why else reveal them?

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Your welcome and I hope this new post provides more insight.

Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

Karen, this is insightful. I made the same argument earlier in the thread (pg 1) and posted a few graphics to support my point.

Yes, I think we both made the point early on (see my first post on the thread), but it got quickly fairly buried, I think.

You are correct in stating that the culture was not Jewish. It is definately Roman. In other christian churches a different culture is evident. The Greek Orthodox make use of icons extensively. These paintings are considered to be “windows into heaven”. Some are credited with many miracles.

The first iconist is, according to tradition, Luke, who write both the Gospel and Acts. Again, according to tradition, several of his original icons still exist. The Black Madonna of Poland is an example.

The Church was very influenced by the Hellenistic and Roman world in which it developed, influenced in more than just art forms. Judaism of the period was also likewise affected, so it is not terribly surprising. As the Church spread, you are absolutely correct that the local congregations took on a “flavor” of their local culture. This still continues today–look at the different “flavor” of American Catholicism compared to, say, Russian Orthodox or Catholicism in a Latin American country.

Good stuff, Karen!

Sub

 

[Steel_Arrow]

The poster you are responding to here showed architectural type statues… these are used to adorn buildings, not for worship. Of course Catholics and other Christians used the what was common in their civilization to build buildings and adorn them. They used statues like this to pay homage to God, Jesus, the saints etc. These are not for use in worship.

You were asking about statues used for worship or spiritual purposes. Catholics create them and used them according the instructions from God in the Bible. It has NOTHING to do with paganism.

Who cares if Jesus did not say to use incense? Jesus used incense when he worshipped. We know that he did because it he was a Jewish Rabbi.

I provided you information that Halloween is not a Catholic holiday. All Saints Day and Eve are celebrations that started in Antioch in the 300’s. Antioch, the last time I checked had nothing to do with the Celtics. Only those people associated with the Celtics use what we consider the trappings of Halloween are those who have been influenced by the Irish… mostly here in the USA. Every Catholic church I’ve ever belonged to makes a very distinct separation between the popular Celtic-like holiday Halloween and All Saints Eve/Day.

All of the other holidays you listed have similar stories, they are not pagan… but people who used to be pagan brought their old customs into the holiday AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. For example Africans do not use Yule logs and Christmas trees. At least they did not when I lived there. Modern commercialism might be changing that now… but that has nothing to do with Christianity.

I find it odd that of all the info you have been given, you are choosing on that which fits your original misinformation. I thought you were here to learn and get answers.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, again. I apologize if I didn’t follow all of the information you had given me. It is quite overwhelming. I don’t seem to have all of the reference material at hand as it seems you do. I don’t think I’m trying to be difficult, I’m just asking questions. Thank you for your patience.

 

[KarenNC]

Easter gets it’s name from a pagan holiday, also. In all these cases the early christians put these feasts where they are in order to REPLACE the pagan holiday in order to defeat paganism.

See newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm for info on Easter.

The date comes from the Hebrew Passover, as that was the time described in the Gospels as the time of the Crucifixion. The term Easter is confined to the Germanic and English speaking countries. The Romance languages use a variant of the Pasha (hence Paschal), which comes from the Hebrew Pesach (Passover).

As the CE says, many customs celebrating the return of spring (vernal equinox) gravitated to this holiday, just as many customs related to the Winter Solstice gravitated to Christmas. Very little is known other than from St. Bede’s writings about the existence of Oestre/Estre/Oestra, the Teutonic Goddess from which Bede claims German and English takes the word Easter (and it has no connection to the name Ishtar or Astarte or Esther, as some would claim–Easter is from the Indo-European language stream, Ishtar/Astarte from Semitic). So it is not iron clad that the name came from such a goddess, and if it did, whether there were any substantial pagan festivals connected to her specifically, as we don’t have other contemporary evidence for it. There are theories that the word is not a goddess at all, but simply related to the word for sunrise.

I believe that British historian Ronald Hutton discusses this in his book, “Stations of the Sun: a history of the ritual year in Britain,” but I can’t find my copy at the moment to verify or quote (the article I could find citing it says it’s on p. 180). A good book, btw, that points out that a lot of the customs and rituals that many Neopagans believe are survivals of pre-Christian British or Celtic religion cannot be attested to until the Middle Ages or later.

bartleby.com/61/roots/IE29.html has more info on the Indo-European roots.

 

[KarenNC]

I provided you information that Halloween is not a Catholic holiday. All Saints Day and Eve are celebrations that started in Antioch in the 300’s. Antioch, the last time I checked had nothing to do with the Celtics. Only those people associated with the Celtics use what we consider the trappings of Halloween are those who have been influenced by the Irish… mostly here in the USA. Every Catholic church I’ve ever belonged to makes a very distinct separation between the popular Celtic-like holiday Halloween and All Saints Eve/Day.

For what it’s worth, I also make a distinction between the American cultural holiday of Halloween and the Neopagan holiday of Samhain (yes, for a variety of reasons, we do find the celebration of the Wheel of the Year to be meaningful and useful liturgically and communally for us even though it is not Hellenic in origin, but we do so in full knowledge of that). We want to make a clear distinction between the two for our young daughter, so we celebrate the holiday in a markedly different way and sometimes on a different day.

We do the same thing with the American cultural version of the holiday of Christmas and our holiday of Winter Solstice, as well as separating the American cultural version of Easter from Spring Equinox. These two are a bit easier as the dates are separated by a few days. For Christmas and Easter, we visit family for whom the holiday is a religious one and help them celebrate and at home we may have the secular bits—Easter bunny and Santa Claus.

 

[quantumDeus]

An interesting post, Karen. One little quibble, the Indo-“European language group” is not generally accepted by modern sociolinguists. However, we can’t fault an historian for not knowing that

Hopefully, I can chance upon that book, it seems an interesting work.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Quantum, with all due respect, the three people you speak of had thier reasons for doing what they did.

Look at the reality of life in the 1500’s. The Pope was a dictator, the bishops enforced his rule, the Inquizition was burning people, among other truly horrible things.

Anyone who was affected by this held a bitter hatred of the Church. Calvin especially was affected by the burning death of John Wesley. (Wesley was burned as a heretic for writing a bible in English using some apocryphal books).

Please reflect on what I have said. Wesley, Luther and Calvin saw the Church in a different light.

Sub

You’re thinking of the wrong person. John Wesley was not burned at the stake. He died in his bed. Maybe you have John Wycliffe or William Tyndale in mind? Irregardless, I fail to see how the burning of anyone at the stake could have really impressed Calvin. After all, he was also responsible for the burning of Michael Servetus at the stake.

 

[KarenNC]

An interesting post, Karen. One little quibble, the Indo-“European language group” is not generally accepted by modern sociolinguists. However, we can’t fault an historian for not knowing that

Hopefully, I can chance upon that book, it seems an interesting work.

That’s unfortunately an ongoing issue in trying to keep abreast of modern scholarship on the ancient religions—it’s hard for a layman such as myself to keep up with all the newer information in archaeology, sociology, linguistics, anthropology, etc. The trickle down from academia to the general population is very, very slow. There is also the tendency in any group for writers within that group to become increasingly self-referential, so that outdated or poor scholarship can be perpetuated for a very, very long time.

Also, potentially in Hutton’s defense, I can’t find the book to make the exact quote, so that the argument about the Indo-European language group may be something that I am injecting from other reading. The citation referred to the discussion about Bede, IIRC.

Could you recommend a good book on the subject that is in keeping with the current theories? We have access to a university library, but it helps me to know what to look for and who is considered mainstream vs. fringe in academic circles.

 

[quantumDeus]

That’s unfortunately an ongoing issue in trying to keep abreast of modern scholarship on the ancient religions—it’s hard for a layman such as myself to keep up with all the newer information in archaeology, sociology, linguistics, anthropology, etc. The trickle down from academia to the general population is very, very slow. There is also the tendency in any group for writers within that group to become increasingly self-referential, so that outdated or poor scholarship can be perpetuated for a very, very long time.

Also, potentially in Hutton’s defense, I can’t find the book to make the exact quote, so that the argument about the Indo-European language group may be something that I am injecting from other reading. The citation referred to the discussion about Bede, IIRC.

Could you recommend a good book on the subject that is in keeping with the current theories? We have access to a university library, but it helps me to know what to look for and who is considered mainstream vs. fringe in academic circles.

I hear your lament! It is hard to keep up across multiple disciplines. Were I not now taking a course in sociolinguistics that would not have been as jarring. But it is still a quibble nonetheless and ought not detract from Hutton’s work.

 

[KofC660]

An interesting post, Karen. One little quibble, the Indo-“European language group” is not generally accepted by modern sociolinguists. However, we can’t fault an historian for not knowing that

Hopefully, I can chance upon that book, it seems an interesting work.

The Indo-European langauge group isn’t generally accepted by sociolinguists? This is just pure bunkum. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. Don’t spread your ignorance, please.

 

[Subrosa]

You’re thinking of the wrong person. John Wesley was not burned at the stake. He died in his bed. Maybe you have John Wycliffe or William Tyndale in mind? Irregardless, I fail to see how the burning of anyone at the stake could have really impressed Calvin. After all, he was also responsible for the burning of Michael Servetus at the stake.

Doh! :banghead:

You’re right. I think Wycliffe, actually.

I remember reading something, somewhere that had a letter by Calvin that showed his dismay about it.

You’re right also saying that he wasn’t above it, either.

But this is how war happens. Think about present day Iraq. The Sunni and Shia are going at it with a fervor. Both are justifying thier killing because of the others killing.

Sub

 

[Steel_Arrow]

It wasn’t. The word “catholic” is a testament to that truth. Baptism replaces circumcision. Please note that the tradition was not ended, but changed in the same way christianity changed judaism.

Colossians 2:11-12 *“And in Him, you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without human hands, in the removal of the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Christ in baptism, in which you which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, Who raised Him from the dead…”*New testament use of incense is found in Revelation 8:3-5. Also found in this passage are found prayers of intercession given by saints in heaven. The Revelation is given to John by Christ Himself (Rev 1:1). Is Christ wrong to reference these things? No. Indeed Christ was telling John to use these things in worship. Why else reveal them?

Your welcome and I hope this new post provides more insight.

Subrosa

Thank you for the information. My understanding of Revelation is not only of things to come, but it is also a very symbolic book. The use of incense again is used in a spiritual realm…Heaven. I see Rev. 8:3-5 as this; an angel stood at the altar before God. He was give incense as an offering before God. The prayers of the saints are the prayers of Christians, not canonized Catholic saints. The smoke and prayers were co-mingled and rose before God. Then the censer became a receptacle for Holy Fire to be flung from Heaven to the earth, causing much noise throughout the earth.

The word saint was used throughout the OT and in the NT. Refer to Psalm 16:3. I respect your interpretation. I see it tough in a different light.

 

[Subrosa]

The date comes from the Hebrew Passover, as that was the time described in the Gospels as the time of the Crucifixion. The term Easter is confined to the Germanic and English speaking countries. The Romance languages use a variant of the Pasha (hence Paschal), which comes from the Hebrew Pesach (Passover).

Yes, the date and feast are from passover, but the word is pagan.

“Ishtar”, which is pronounced “Easter” was a day that commemorated the resurrection of one of the pagan gods that was called “Tammuz”, who was believed to be the only begotten son of the moon-goddess and the sun-god.

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

Thank you for the information. My understanding of Revelation is not only of things to come, but it is also a very symbolic book. The use of incense again is used in a spiritual realm…Heaven. I see Rev. 8:3-5 as this; an angel stood at the altar before God. He was give incense as an offering before God. The prayers of the saints are the prayers of Christians, not canonized Catholic saints. The smoke and prayers were co-mingled and rose before God. Then the censer became a receptacle for Holy Fire to be flung from Heaven to the earth, causing much noise throughout the earth.

The word saint was used throughout the OT and in the NT. Refer to Psalm 16:3. I respect your interpretation. I see it tough in a different light.

The point is that christianity has used incense from it’s inception. This is plain from the liturgy I posted.

Sub

 

[BelFarfalla]

Quantum, with all due respect, the three people you speak of had thier reasons for doing what they did.

Look at the reality of life in the 1500’s. The Pope was a dictator, the bishops enforced his rule, the Inquizition was burning people, among other truly horrible things.

Anyone who was affected by this held a bitter hatred of the Church. Calvin especially was affected by the burning death of John Wesley. (Wesley was burned as a heretic for writing a bible in English using some apocryphal books).

Please reflect on what I have said. Wesley, Luther and Calvin saw the Church in a different light.

Sub

The reformers turned right around and burned/killed those who they thought were heretics.

 

[KofC660]

Yes, the date and feast are from passover, but the word is pagan.

“Ishtar”, which is pronounced “Easter” was a day that commemorated the resurrection of one of the pagan gods that was called “Tammuz”, who was believed to be the only begotten son of the moon-goddess and the sun-god.

Sub

No, there is no connection between “Ishtar” and “Easter”. That is what they call “folk etymology”.