Pagans, especially Wiccans....

[koda]

IMO, Wiccans are just fooling themselves. The Church is correct - it is from the devil, though many “wiccans” refust to belive this. I can say this from experience. There was a time when I left the church and got heavily into the occult. I soon realized that these so-called “white” pagans were idiots. They were calling on dark forces, standing in circles and all that - yet they were somehow above the black magic thing. Now I was heavily into the black magic thing - I was a for all practical purposes a Satanist and can say from the perspective of that group that at least we were honest, not like those dumb wiccans in their protective circles.

Jesus never left me and at times I was aware of this. And finally, one day my heart opened up and let him back in. But sometimes I’m also very aware that the dark ones aren’t far away. Stay away from this stuff - you don’t know what you’re dealing with!

 

[SamG]

Yes, I meant to “apologize” in the sence of apologetics.

I greatly appreciate the help you have all given me. And I thank the ex-Wiccans greatly for their participation as well.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Have you read: Anti-Neo-Pagan Apologetics?

Scott

 

[Neithan]

does the Church attempt to suppress all that is not in line with her beliefs/laws etc.

Following in the footsteps of her Founder, the Church bears witness to the fullness of the Truth, which is objective and absolute (i.e. not relative). If any beliefs or laws suppress the Church in any way or what she teaches, then she will oppose those beliefs and laws. This is why we have the separation of Church and State. This separation is a Christian and Catholic innovation (was unheard of in the pagan world!), and as long as the State does not interfere with the Church, she will not interfere with the State. That does not mean that she will hide her voice or cease to condemn what she views are harmful beliefs/laws of the cultural societies in which she subsists.
Offensive forceful suppression of antithetical beliefs or laws is *not *in line with orthodox Catholic practice. The abuses of the Inquisition and the Crusades in mediaeval Europe are well documented and heavily exploited but the point is that they were Christian abuses, not proper to Church doctrine nor practice. In fact, Pope John Paul II officially apologised for the sins of the Church as part of the year 2000 Jubilee.



Wicca is entirely a new religion, by the way, insofar as anything pagan can really be called ‘new’. There is no unbroken tradition. It is pieced together from historical/spurious documents of various ancient European pagan rituals, spiced with modern occultism and cooked up from plenty of imagination!

 

[Bruised_Reed]

SamG:

More recently I have been dealing more and more with pagans. People who believe in reincarnation and things of that sort. The biggest problem I’ve faced is with Wiccans. Because I do not know very much about Wicca and cannot find very reliable information, I am unable to apologize to them properly. I was hoping someone could enlighten me about Wicca. Its basic beliefs, traditions, etc.

Thanks very much.

This article by Sandra Miesel from Crisis magazine may helpful. I appreciated this part:

Wiccans aren’t Satanists. (Please say this three times before reading further.) They don’t acknowledge—much less worship—a personalized principle of evil. The charge of Satanism is perhaps the sorest point between witches and Christians: Fear of malevolent Satan-worshipers kindled the early modern witch-hunt, whose victims contemporary witches like to claim as kin in an effort to secure victim status.

and this:

Why should Catholics care about a religious system so alien to ours? The simple answer is: It’s there, it’s growing, and some ex-Catholics find it attractive. (A more flippant answer: Look at what we have in common; after all, we’ve both had problems with Protestant Fundamentalists and been maligned in Jack Chick comics.)

Writer Charlotte Allen has pointed out that paganism, with its colorful “smells and bells,” is like Catholicism without Christ. Pagans specialize in evocative ceremonies, rich symbols, and a sense of mystery that have been bleached out of much post-Vatican II Catholicism. Pagans kept their liturgical language lush and formal while ours became boring and banal. Ritual is their highest art form.

 

[silverwings_88]

Here’s what I wrote on the Christianity.com forums concerning Wicca (for the original link, click here). Remember though that Wicca IS individualistic as well, so differences may occur.

~~~~~~~*~

"Abide the Wiccan Laws ye must
In perfect love and perfect trust.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
An’ it harm none, do what ye will.
And ever mind the Rule of Three:
What ye send out, comes back to thee.
And follow this with mind and heart,
And merry ye meet, and merry ye part."

• The Wiccan Rede (short version)

My goodness, some of you have such unusual views of Wicca, IMHO. I’m an ex-Wiccan. A male ex-Wiccan, to be precise. My Wiccan name was Reyvynne Silverwings. Now, I won’t divulge on your views (as 2 years of Wicca has given me some solid view of the religion; I have been a solitary practicioner of magick). I still have my Christian charity, as much as we consider Wicca, Islam, Atheism, etc. to be of the Devil’s creation. There is no Devil or Satan in Wicca. Magick is a neutral force, and only people add the morality to that force.

Now here is a brief understanding and main points of Wicca. Very very brief, and it takes time to learn about anything for everything; if anyone wants more information, they can contact me by PM. The two statutes I use will be the Wiccan Rede and the Witches Creed. Of course, not all follow these commands, but these are of the mainline Wiccans of the community.

The reason why it is spelled with a ‘k’ is to distinguish magick, as the divine force, from magic which are mere delusions and skilled illusioned tricks.

The reason why Wicca is such a popular religion is because it is so flexible. They believe in one deity, a Force of some sort, and this Force is divided into a male and female aspect: the male is called the God, and the female aspect is called the Goddess. These two are representatives of the sun and the moon. But since this primarily does laud the feminine side and much of modern Wicca is influenced by Celtic paganism, many of the rites and holidays are based on phases of the moon.

Now this Force (some believe that it is a true deity, while a minority believe that it is rather a divine reality, like the Brahman of Hinduism) has been with us since time began. And all religions believe in this Force, whether they be of the Greeks, Egyptians, Jews, Pagans, etc. Because the Wiccans believe that this Force has manifested itself through different forms, OR that humans perceive of the same Force through a different perception, all these pagan gods and goddesses are merely representatives of the female, male, or neutral aspect of the same Deity. Thus many Wiccans may choose a culture of gods and goddesses (called pantheons) which they may feel close to (since they also believe in reincarnation). My friend chose the Egyptian pantheon whilst I stuck to the generic Mother Goddess and Father God. The Witches Creed states,

**“The dark and the light in succession,
The opposites each unto each,
Shown forth as a God and a Goddess,
Of this did our ancestors teach.”

** Continued…

 

[silverwings_88]

*Continued…

*Now magick is a small part of the pagan religion. Although it is a small part, it does play a large role on ritual. Magick in itself is basically the will in the universe; it is a mysterious force which many witches have different beliefs on. But since magick is available to everyone, not all use the advantage of magick. Those who utilise it are bound by the Rule of Three, a Karmic law that tells that if one casts a spell into the cosmos, then the effect would come in three times as strong. There are no such things as “love spells” or “money spells” because of their selfish wish for desire by changing the will of another, and by the rule of the universe, the Will is individual. Thus that is where “An’ it harm none, do what ye will,” an’ being an ancient form of “if.” Manipulating the Will of another violates this rule. Of course, Wiccans practice this rule, while other Witches do not. All Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccans.

When a spell is cast, it CAN have lasting effects, and cannot be removed unless magick is used. The universe is large and eternal, from reincarnation to reincarnation.

Because the Mother Goddess has provided us with Nature as a natural beauty, it is treated with great respect. For example, when one wishes to have an athame (a wand or pointing stick made of wood of some sort to channel energy, or in this case, magick), one does not just chop off a branch. A proper thanks to the spirits of the trees should be in order. Also, the spirits reside in Nature, such as elves, fairies, gnomes, etc. These spirits should be respected and not disturbed. Of course, not all Wiccans believe in these spiritual creatures. Because the Earth in a sense is our mother, Mother Nature must be taken care of in turn. Yet we still burn her, pollute her, destroy her, etc. Thus Nature must be given much respect as a Mother. As stated in the Witches Creed,
**
“The birth and rebirth of all nature,
The passing of winter and spring,
We share with the life universal,
Rejoice in the magical ring.”**

Now in the daily life, everything is quite “magickal” and simply a gift of the Mother Goddess, as much as Catholics see everything as a miracle of God in a sacramental way. In the full Wiccan Rede, it describes “Live and let live; fairly take and fairly give.” This simple philosophy of giving tolerance and respect to everything that is diverse is a poetic expression of thanks to the Goddess. This is where homosexuals find tolerance in, as they are much welcomed in the Wiccan community.

Concerning death; when a Wiccan dies, or if any one dies, they go into Summerland, which is the equivalent to Elysium; a land of reeds and green pastures and they rest there for as long as they wish until they are ready to reincarnate into the Earth. There is no Hell in Wicca, since the universe is eternal and without time.
**
“An Do What You Will be the challenge,
So be it in Love that harms none,
For this is the only commandment,
By Magick of old, be it done.”
**

 

[MikeinSD]

koda:

IMO, Wiccans are just fooling themselves. The Church is correct - it is from the devil, though many “wiccans” refust to belive this. I can say this from experience. There was a time when I left the church and got heavily into the occult. I soon realized that these so-called “white” pagans were idiots. They were calling on dark forces, standing in circles and all that - yet they were somehow above the black magic thing. Now I was heavily into the black magic thing - I was a for all practical purposes a Satanist and can say from the perspective of that group that at least we were honest, not like those dumb wiccans in their protective circles.

Jesus never left me and at times I was aware of this. And finally, one day my heart opened up and let him back in. But sometimes I’m also very aware that the dark ones aren’t far away. Stay away from this stuff - you don’t know what you’re dealing with!

I don’t think anyone who walked the left hand path knows much about white magick. “Do what you will but harm no one” is a basic rule. Black magick relies on life force which often means killing something. So yeah, u were deep in darkness. Don’t criticize folks who walk in the light.

 

[mlchance]

Karin:

…it actually is a very old religion.

Actually, no it isn’t. It is largely the invention of 19th century amateur anthropologists looking for a new kick.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mlchance]

silverwings_88:

The reason why Wicca is such a popular religion is because it is so flexible.

It’s easy to be popular by not making any serious demands on the intellect or will.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[koda]

MikeinSD:

I don’t think anyone who walked the left hand path knows much about white magick. “Do what you will but harm no one” is a basic rule. Black magick relies on life force which often means killing something. So yeah, u were deep in darkness. Don’t criticize folks who walk in the light.

With all due respect, your information on Satanism seems to have come from a tabloid. True Satanists do not kill people or animals in any kind of ritualistic way (sometimes sexual energy is used). The mysticism involved is not of that type, though that’s not to say there aren’t people Satanists would like to see dead - but going to prison for life harldy fits into the self-serving lifestyle. Curses don’t require a ritual sacrifice.

As for Wicca - my point was that they are indeed calling on the Dark yet refuse to pay it homage, instead thinking they can hold the power hostage in some kind of protective circle. And “harm none” is nonsense. Let’s say you want a certain job or man or whatever and you do a ritual to get it. Well, someone is going to lose so that is indeed harming another to get what you want. There is no such thing as white magic. There’s God and there’s Satan and it’s one or the other. Satanists consider wiccans to be hypocrites. If you’re going to play in the Dark, you’d better acknowledge where your power is coming from lest you piss the Dark off and find yourself in a real bind. Yes, wicca is dangerous in more ways than one.

 

[Faustina]

Maryam:

Having been a practicioner of Wicca as I have posted in another thread I can say that I went from practicing the Gardnerian form of Wicca, to being a Solitary practicioner and then on to its Italian form called “Stregheria”.

From my own experience and having interacted with other Wiccans, many will fall into 2 different categories: Firstly, those seeking a higher magical power in order to feel a closer union with the natural power in the world and secondly those seeking to do magical spells because it seems “cool”.

Most of the rituals which involve invoking the Gods/Goddesses, infusing the power of the moon into the objects being used in the rituals and so on…
The moons power and efficacy being dependant on what you are choosing to achieve. (waxing/waning/New Moon)

Whether you are looking to draw something or someone away from you, towards you or bring an end/beginning to something.

For those who have entered into Wicca and seriously seek this closer union with the natural powers of the world it can often lead into Higher Forms of Magic where one does invocation of Elementals, Angels and so on, which is very very dangerous territory to get into…

I find that most get into Wicca out of lack of a feeling of control in their lives and wanting to manipulate the environment around them. To those who want to say that Wicca is an ancient religion is false.

There is no ancient Wiccan system of practice… It is a mish mashing together of what is left in folk traditions and archaeological findings of what they “think” the Gods/Goddesses signify and the supposed rituals associated with them.

I have yet to see one person who can bring to light a Wiccan system of belief that is complete or near complete and that has been practiced in such a way for thousands of years.

Some may say “well, what about the indigenous pagan practices in this country or that country…?” Often times these indigenous cultures are not even European in origin so they hold no bearing as to whether one can say Wicca is valid or not.

I must repeat that these are My Experiences and what I have seen.

Wicca and other spiritualities seeking to manipulate the natural environment around you is all about connecting to the natural power OUTSIDE OF ONESELF whereas in Christianity we seek to GO WITHIN OURSELVES into our soul and in the cell of our soul pray alone to the Father. Christ the Lord Our God is within us if only we will accept and believe in HIM.

For many years I seeked magical power outside of myself and tried to find a connection…but, it never happened. Sure I had experiences that some would call psychic phenomena and feeling energy, but, I must admit that at times I felt a feeling of paranoia that something was always watching me and that I was cutting myself off from something (that something was CHRIST). To carry this feeling of “disconnection” is hard to describe.

I have seen too many times those that have dabbled into Wicca suffer from the same thing or later on start to experience nervous conditions and lose any sense of peace from within. This is where all those nice psychic experiences and energy manipulations start to show their true colors…

They all come from the DEVIL.

Thank God I came back to the Catholic church a few years ago… I may not be as faithful a Catholic as I would like to be, but, I have started to gain some of the peace I have lost and that feeling of paranoia and disconnection is gone.

God bless all

Your experiences with Wicca sound very much like mine. At first I was fascinated with it, but soon I realized how empty it felt to me. Sometimes I also felt a little paranoria.

 

[Mickey]

**10.**Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be ‘the only way’ and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief.

Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

 

[Wondering_Waif]

Pentecost2005:

Notice the emphasis on nature. Notice also that the only reasons “Wiccans” don’t like Christianity – for example, the Catholic Church – is because the Church tells them that they’re wrong. And they refuse to accept the concept that anything is “wrong.” Things may be “hurtful,” apparently, but never wrong. So, they “honor those who teach” – but only as long as the “teachers” tell them what they want to hear. Truth is beside the point, apparently.

I have no issue with folks who know God thru God’s creations. Where does it say they don’t like Christianity?

 

[Wondering_Waif]

Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

They probably don’t like the fact that the “christians” burned their ancestors and their cats during the Early Days, either. I’ve heard that the plague was a direct result of killing the cats so it seems that God was on the side of the cats, that is if you believe that hogwash that Pat Robertson puts out there.

 

[Wondering_Waif]

koda:

With all due respect, your information on Satanism seems to have come from a tabloid. True Satanists do not kill people or animals in any kind of ritualistic way (sometimes sexual energy is used). The mysticism involved is not of that type, though that’s not to say there aren’t people Satanists would like to see dead - but going to prison for life harldy fits into the self-serving lifestyle. Curses don’t require a ritual sacrifice.

As for Wicca - my point was that they are indeed calling on the Dark yet refuse to pay it homage, instead thinking they can hold the power hostage in some kind of protective circle. And “harm none” is nonsense. Let’s say you want a certain job or man or whatever and you do a ritual to get it. Well, someone is going to lose so that is indeed harming another to get what you want. There is no such thing as white magic. There’s God and there’s Satan and it’s one or the other. Satanists consider wiccans to be hypocrites. If you’re going to play in the Dark, you’d better acknowledge where your power is coming from lest you piss the Dark off and find yourself in a real bind. Yes, wicca is dangerous in more ways than one.

Anyone who openly worships Satan cannot possibly be sane.

 

[Wondering_Waif]

MikeinSD:

I don’t think anyone who walked the left hand path knows much about white magick. “Do what you will but harm no one” is a basic rule. Black magick relies on life force which often means killing something. So yeah, u were deep in darkness. Don’t criticize folks who walk in the light.

Interesting, “First of all, do no harm is part of the Hippocratic oath”

I have no problem with that. .

 

[koda]

Wondering Waif:

Anyone who openly worships Satan cannot possibly be sane.

I do hope that you read my earlier post where I recount my return to the Church. Was I crazy then? I don’t think so but I was in a completely different place mentally - a different perspective on things, if you will.

 

[Milliardo]

Actually, not all about Wicca is bad: Scott Cunnigham (those who’ve been into Wicca should know him) wrote a book about herbs and medicinal plants. I just forgot what its title was, but I saw it in a bookstore and leafed through it a few years ago. Very informative, and best of all it doesn’t deal much about Wicca, but about plants and herbal medicine–something that’s being looked at now by medical practitioners.

 

[LSK]

I greatly appreciate the posts from those who were involved in the practice of Wicca. I have never really understood it other than as a kind of new-age nod to witchcraft, with a kind of rich hippy NorthernCaliforniaMarinCountyIamTooCoolForMyBirkenstocks kind of mentality. I don’t mean to offend anyone, but I just could never take it seriously enough to give it much thought, other than as a fairy tale.

I do see how it could suck people in…the points Karin found and posted for us seem so innocuous, don’t they? Again, very ‘inclusive’…we all love nature and don’t want to hurt anyone…very groovy, for want of a better word. Like most movements that do not include a love for God and for His Law, upon closer look the fundamental selfishness and self-centeredness appears.

I think you received some great advice to not come at your friend(s) with a heavy hand. The best way to evangelize someone who is outside the Christian Tradition is to LIVE your Faith so that they can visibly see Christ in all that you do and say. Ghandi once said something to the effect that if the Christians in India ACTED like Christians, there would be no Hindus or Muslims in that country.