Pagans in the UK

[oat_soda]

I have nothing to lose. I already know God exists.

then it is a matter of either accepting the gospels or not. i think they have to be divinely inspired because of the prophesies that were fullfilled and because the church tells me they are inspired. i understand why someone wouldn’t believe in Satan. why would God send someone to eternal punishment? it doesn’t seem fair. but the church teaches those who end up in hell are there by their own will. they have rejected God’s grace until the end. since they can’t accept God for who he is, he is putting them where ultimately they want to be, away from him. It is almost passive.

I look at the world and see evil is real. i know God is real, so why couldn’t there be an angel who rebelled against God and was cast down to earth? why would God only create human life and not other creatures who are spirits but also have free will? to me, it is reasonable to believe in the Devil. there is plenty of evidence he exits- look at the priests and the scandal in the church. that had to have come from the bowls of hell.

 

[GAssisi]

I’m new on these pagan threads, so forgive me if this issue has already come up. Do pagans claim that the pagans of old never practiced human sacrifice?

Greg

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

then it is a matter of either accepting the gospels or not.

Always another catch, huh?

i think they have to be divinely inspired because of the prophesies that were fullfilled and because the church tells me they are inspired.

They may have some divine inspiration, but that does not make all of them true.

why would God send someone to eternal punishment?

An all-loving creator, which is what I believe in, wouldn’t. No-one would choose to go to a place such as “hell” is described. So it is not free will. Or, it is similar to a gun being held to one’s head. You better do this (believe in me), or else I pull the trigger (you go to hell). Sure the person may then do the act “freely”, but only because they don’t want to get shot in the head. Not really free will, now is it.

I look at the world and see evil is real.

Of course evil is real. It comes from people.

why would God only create human life and not other creatures who are spirits but also have free will?

Never said he didn’t.

look at the priests and the scandal in the church. that had to have come from the bowls of hell.

So what the priests did is not really their fault because Satan made them do it? Just one of the reasons I don’t believe in Satan. He is an excuse for evil.

 

[BlessedBe13]

GAssisi:

I’m new on these pagan threads, so forgive me if this issue has already come up. Do pagans claim that the pagans of old never practiced human sacrifice?

No, but I know that I don’t. Do Catholics claim that Catholics/Christians of old never killed anyone (or started wars) in the name of their God. Muslims today kill in the name of their God.

So your question is basically irrelevant, as people of all religions have killed at some point in time in the name of God and religion.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Blessed13,

It is relevant because modern pagans, trying it seems to accommodate to themselves the politics of oppression, try to paint Christians as completely barbaric in their attempts to stamp out ancient paganism. I think if it is revealed that ancient pagans practiced human sacrifice, they would not be so presumptuous as to pretend that the politically correct would ever accept their cause.

God bless,

Greg

 

[BlessedBe13]

GAssisi:

Dear Blessed13,

It is relevant because modern pagans, trying it seems to accommodate to themselves the politics of oppression, try to paint Christians as completely barbaric in their attempts to stamp out ancient paganism.

I’d say most pagans don’t. Only those with anti-Christian sentiments or that look for attention. And with most of the serious pagans I have talked to, this is not the case. They are fully aware of pagan history as well as the history of other religions. It is not untrue that ancient Christians were barbaric in trying to stamp out ancient pagan religions, just as it is not untrue that ancient pagans practiced human sacrifice. As I already said it is irrelevant because most if not all religions have a history of killing people in the name of their God or Gods.

I think if it is revealed that ancient pagans practiced human sacrifice, they would not be so presumptuous as to pretend that the politically correct would ever accept their cause.

Revealed? This is readily available information.

 

[Ahimsa]

Human sacrifice can take many forms. One could put a child on an altar and take her life because one’s deity demands it. Or one could invade a land, burn the town, and kill all the inhabitants, because one’s deity demands it. I would say that any instance of killing people due to a supposed demand from a deity that killing be done, is a form of human sacrifice.

 

[oat_soda]

So what the priests did is not really their fault because Satan made them do it? Just one of the reasons I don’t believe in Satan. He is an excuse for evil.

by your logic, i could just as well say that i don’t believe in God because he is an excuse for good. this is kind of like pelagius’s position which said man is capable to doing good on his own. it basically is a rejection of original sin and its stain -concupiscence. one thing i find totally true is the concept of our fallen nature or concupiscence. this means we have the desire to do things that are irrational and wrong.

for instance, if we were completely rational, we wouldn’t want to have sex outside of marriage. the procreative nature of sex and it’s unitive aspect points to its natural home in marriage. also, you wouldn’t get STDs. but we do it anyways because we want to. just like when you get angry at someone and find out later that it was a misunderstanding or you were being selfish. our emotions and feelings/drives at times make us sin.

so the church says we were inherently good, created in the image of God, but we have a fallen nature. this means, we can’t do anything pleasing to God unless he gives us the grace to do it. and we are slaves to sin and concupiscence unless he gives us the grace to overcome it. in the same way, the devil and other evil spirits try to do the opposite of God and encourage us to sin. so we can’t blame it totally on the devil because we by free will consented to that temptation when we should have turned to God and asked for strength.

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

by your logic, i could just as well say that i don’t believe in God because he is an excuse for good. Technically God would be the cause of both good and evil since it was God who created everything and God who gave humans free will. It is not necessary to have a third party (Satan) who causes this evil. Satan can be considered an excuse for evil (it is he who causes it) or a way to pass the blame off of God and/or humans for evil (even though God is responsible for giving humans free will, and therefore the capacity to commit evil, Satan is the one who brings evil into the world, i.e. a scapegoat). Even so, it was God who created “Satan”, so God would still be responsible for evil.

it basically is a rejection of original sin and its stain -concupiscence. one thing i find totally true is the concept of our fallen nature or concupiscence. this means we have the desire to do things that are irrational and wrong.

I never said that I believed in original sin. I don’t believe that humans are born flawed. Humans may do wrong things, but I don’t believe that it is in mankind’s nature to do these things.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Brad:

If he was made by an all loving Creator, how could he not fufill his promise?

Humans have free-will to do wrong. Just because he was made by an all-loving Creator does not mean that my neighbor is also all-loving.

You have just stated that your preconceived notions regarding God are what “proves” there is no hell. You do not admit that this preconception does not drive your belief that hell was “added into” the Gospels? Sounds a little convenient to me.

I explained why I believe there is no hell. Logically it would follow that if I disbelieve in hell for the reasons given, I would believe that “hell” was just something added into the bible.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Brad:

The Bible itself is multiple books written at different times - the fact that these books were written is history.

History maybe, but not necessarily historical fact.

 

[oat_soda]

Even so, it was God who created “Satan”, so God would still be responsible for evil.

God does not create evil. he allows it to exist as a concequence of free will. when he created the universe he said it was good. everything was good except when we choose to reject God and put ourselves ahead of God. This is what happened to lucifer or the “morning star”. he was created as the greatest and most powerful angel. but he didn’t want to be subject to God and his plan of creation. so, he rejected God and seperated himself from God who is love. the opposite of God is death, evil, and chaos. God does not cause evil, he allows it to exist. without evil, how could we know good? in fact, God loves us so much that he allows us to reject him.

 

[SamCA]

oat soda:

God does not cause evil, he allows it to exist. without evil, how could we know good?

I’ve always had trouble reconciling this explanation of evil with the existence of paradise – either in Eden or in Heaven.

Presumably, there is no evil in Heaven, correct? If that’s the case, does it mean that it is impossible for people in Heaven to know good?

 

[Exporter]

Blessedbe13, Quote, "
Quote:
Only God allows you to spend eternity in hell.
I believe in an all-loving Creator. Such a being would not condemn the creations that he “loves” so much to a place such as hell.
Quote:
Hell is for real, so is evil, so is the devil.
Evil is real, but it comes from people, not some supernatural being. Even if the devil is real, it is your God that created him, so in the end, it would be your God responsible for all the evil in the world.

---

Blessed be13, your two answers to these two quotes are your honest replys, but they are superficial. You completely omit the property called “free-will”. The Archangels and also man had/have “free-will”. In the second answer you said evil doesn’t come fro a supernatural then you say evil does come from a supernatural. Which one is it?

You are human just as I am and I have a free-will. That means that you too have a free will. Lucifer was a great angel and he had a free-will. He chose to rebel. He was cast out of heaven. If you freely choose to break the Laws that God set forth then you too will suffer the consequences. It is NOT God who sends you to hell ! It is your own free-will choice that will condem you. That is called “Tough Love”. Of course you do not believe there is a hell. Do you believe there is a heaven? For that matter, do you believe there is an afterlife?