Pagans in the UK

[oat_soda]

take #2. And I’d take the risk to prove that in an experiment. I do not fear any demon, Satan, Cthuthlu, Loki or whatever. But then, exactly that lack of fear (faith) will keep the spirits out, d’uh?

please dont even take the risk. my intention is** not to encourage anyone to try and get possessed.** i think deep down you know it is wrong. i would have cooperation in that sin. i just wanted to point out that most people have an intuitive sense of the supernatural for a reason. it speaks to our soul. st. augustine said that we are created for God so that we will find ultimate happiness and purpose when we are united to him in heaven. i hope all neo-pagans and atheists come to know the truth in the catholic church. what i should have said is pray to God with an open mind and ask him to give you the faith to believe in him. if he exists, then he will give you the faith, if not, then you will not have the faith. don’t mess around with the occult or the oujia board.

there are no such things as ghosts or dead people who manage to hang around after death. only demons and the devil manifest themselves. dead people are only in heaven, hell, or purgatory. they might appear under the form of deceased ones, but they are not them. so any attempt to contact deceased people will only bring demons and possible possession. God cast down satan and his mingons -fallen angels, to earth before he sends them to hell forever. this is why they cling on to us. they don’t want to go to hell and they know they are on borrowed time.

 

[AnAtheist]

Brad:

1. You cannot repeatedly cast a spell or summon a demon because you are dealing with real spiritual persons that do not act like robots that are programmed to respond in a particular way. There is nothing objective about how people act. They act in a subjective manner as they have emotions, intellect, and will.

That’s convenient, isn’t it? If it works, then it works. If not, it’s an inherent feature.
E.g., the effect behind Ouija boards is very well researched, it is called ideomotor effect. There is nothing supernatural behind it.

1. Ask people that have been possessed and are now Christian if they found nothing in the occult as it pertains to their life

I do not deny that. People who are convinced they were possessed experience all the things which are connected with possession, but that is a mere projection of a cultural image to themselves. Our culture has a special image, how possessed people should act. Once those people are convinced, they are possessed, they behave like that.

Today people who claim to be abducted by aliens describe them all the same way (grey skin, big black eyes, …). Back in the 70s those aliens “looked” quite differently, but by now the culture has adopted a certain imagery, so over time the descriptions fit that image. Works like self fullfiling prophecies.

 

[Brad]

AnAtheist:

That’s convenient, isn’t it? If it works, then it works. If not, it’s an inherent feature.
E.g., the effect behind Ouija boards is very well researched, it is called ideomotor effect. There is nothing supernatural behind it.

You seem to be equating me with people that promote the use of Ouija boards and other type of “games”. I’m not one of those people. I don’t make any claims as to whether demons can or cannot be summoned by these games. My point is that the demons exist and they can affect your soul directly or indirectly as your soul futher rejects God through sin. This isn’t a “convenient” explantion - simply the way that it is.

Evil (lies) and Truth (goodness) are personified beings - their philosophy and life rules are objective but their actions within people are subjective. No person can decide one day to be possessed by a demon or be miraculously healed and have it happen - however, both do happen.

AnAtheist:

I do not deny that. People who are convinced they were possessed experience all the things which are connected with possession, but that is a mere projection of a cultural image to themselves. Our culture has a special image, how possessed people should act. Once those people are convinced, they are possessed, they behave like that.

Today people who claim to be abducted by aliens describe them all the same way (grey skin, big black eyes, …). Back in the 70s those aliens “looked” quite differently, but by now the culture has adopted a certain imagery, so over time the descriptions fit that image. Works like self fullfiling prophecies.

I would agree - it sounds like the cases you are describing are more psychological than supernatural.

 

[AnAtheist]

Brad:

You seem to be equating me with people that promote the use of Ouija boards and other type of “games”. I’m not one of those people. I don’t make any claims as to whether demons can or cannot be summoned by these games.

No, no, but it seems you promote the idea that demons exist and it therefore dangerous to experiment with games like those. While I agree, that they are dangerous to some people, but for other reasons.

 

[Brad]

AnAtheist:

No, no, but it seems you promote the idea that demons exist and it therefore dangerous to experiment with games like those. While I agree, that they are dangerous to some people, but for other reasons.

Sure. And I would say that the danger of the demons (namely accepting sin as ok and not an act of separation from God) is of much more concern than these games or any psychological disorder.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Brad:

Sure - for all ANYONE knows. But how about people that DO know? The earliest Church fathers - 1st and 2nd century preached about hell from their Bibles. When was it added in?

Most likely.

Do you have 1 piece of evidence anywhere that shows that hell was added in to what Jesus said.

No. Just as you have no proof that is what he said.

We have Church council all throughout the last 2000 years and not a hint in any of them implies that hell was added in.

Obviously not, since they would want it to seem like it was said by the “son of God”

Are you justifying your firm belief in no hell on people’s assumptions that it was added in, even though they have zero evidence that this is the case?

No my belief in no hell is because I believe in an all loving Creator that would not condemn any person to such a place.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Brad:

Nope - I’m giving you solid historical documented evidence. You have given me none.

There is no proof that the Bible is entirely true - other than faith

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

most people in hell are surprised to be there because they didn’t believe in it. if you don’t believe in the devil or demons, then i chalenge you to use a ouija board and ask for satan to possess you. make sure you do this alone and a night multiple times. if there is no devil, then you have nothing to fear. but i bet you won’t do it. OK, I’ll try it tonight…if I don’t die laughing halfway through.

Unfortunately, I do not have a ouija board. Since you are such an expert do you have suggestions for an alternative?

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

that’s the beauty of it. you will be too absorbed in the beatific vision, contemplating God, then worrying about who is there. that is why we are created, to see God face to face and be with him forever. Another issue that I have with Christianity. I’ve always heard that we were created for the sole purpose of worshipping God, thinking about God, etc. If that is the case, that makes God pretty self-centered, far from all-loving (except of himself). If that was why we were created, why give people free will? Why not have a bunch of zombies running around praising God? Unless of course that is because God thinks it would be “fun” to see which ones don’t worship him so that he gets to send them to everlasting torment. Yep, quite the loving God there…

use the ouija board at night, alone, and try to get a demon or the devil to possess you, or at least manifest himself. we can learn about God based on evidence of the supernatural.

Even if the devil existed, why would anyone want to do that? How about you go try it. Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

. if they were trying to sell you a line, why would they make themselves look so incompetent. also, what did making up this stuff get them?

To make it more believable. Humans are not perfect, they make mistakes. They didn’t hold a popular belief at the time, so things were harder for them. Etc…

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

how could someone come up with a story like that?

People have come up with crazier stories than that.

 

[jdnation]

There was ana rticle I read somewhere in teh Uk press. Apparently as of now, Christianity is no longer the majority religion.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Brad:

My presence here is truly out of a desire for others to have the same level of belief/conviction because it has only made my life 10-fold better.

That may be true for you, and there is nothing wrong with wanting others to feel the way you do. However, keep in mind, not everyone is going to feel the same way you do, and trying to push your beliefs on them will not help. Considering that my beliefs have made my life 10-fold better than it was before.

 

[oat_soda]

OK, I’ll try it tonight…if I don’t die laughing halfway through

nobody wants you to try, especially me. i was just pointing out that most people never take a serious open minded look at God and the devil. see post #81. pray to God and tell him you don’t know if he exists but want to know that he is there or not. ask him to give you the gift of faith? what do you have to lose?

 

[oat_soda]

I’ve always heard that we were created for the sole purpose of worshipping God, thinking about God, etc. If that is the case, that makes God pretty self-centered, far from all-loving (except of himself). If that was why we were created, why give people free will? Why not have a bunch of zombies running around praising God? Unless of course that is because God thinks it would be “fun” to see which ones don’t worship him so that he gets to send them to everlasting torment. Yep, quite the loving God there…

if God does exist, then we can say he is way above our ways. So i think it’s reasonable to not understand at this time everything God does as i am finite and he is infinite. But we can know about God through knowing the world he created. the fact that there are so many religions that believe in God or gods and that you define yourself as not believing in God should tell you that man and his concepts of God are extremely important in our world. the fact that you are on a catholic website at least says that you find this debate interesting and you are searching for the truth. why not look into miracles by saints or cases of demonic posession? maybe then you will see the catholic faith is reasonable.

 

[BlessedBe13]

oat soda:

pray to God and tell him you don’t know if he exists but want to know that he is there or not. ask him to give you the gift of faith? what do you have to lose?

I have nothing to lose. I already know God exists.

 

[Brad]

Heathen Dawn:

Misattributed. Many words in the Bible attributed to him not actually said by him.

What a convenient position to take. Unfortunately, no matter how many “scholars” speculate that Jesus didn’t say some of these things, they have not 1 bit of proof, historically or scientifically that he DID NOT say anything attributed to him in the Gospels. If this were true, somebody somewhere sometime would have written about it prior to the year 1,000 don’t you think? The Gospels themselves are historical and you have nothing but speculation to say that they are not. I’m providing 1st century documents - the Gospels - you are providing nothing.

 

[Brad]

BlessedBe13:

No my belief in no hell is because I believe in an all loving Creator that would not condemn any person to such a place.

What kind of basis for that is that for truth? Would you give your neighbor everything that you owned (all assests, all money) for a month and let him get leave town with all of it if he promised to give it all back with 10% interest in a month? If he was made by an all loving Creator, how could he not fufill his promise?

You have just stated that your preconceived notions regarding God are what “proves” there is no hell. You do not admit that this preconception does not drive your belief that hell was “added into” the Gospels? Sounds a little convenient to me.

 

[Brad]

BlessedBe13:

There is no proof that the Bible is entirely true - other than faith

The Bible itself is multiple books written at different times - the fact that these books were written is history. You have given me nothing that disproves anything written in it. It takes more faith for you to dis-believe the Bible than it does for me believe it.

Further, you have chosen to ignore several proofs that I have laid out in previous posts. Looks like you are more interested in sustaining disbelief than finding truth. Sorry about that.

 

[Brad]

BlessedBe13:

That may be true for you, and there is nothing wrong with wanting others to feel the way you do. However, keep in mind, not everyone is going to feel the same way you do, and trying to push your beliefs on them will not help. Considering that my beliefs have made my life 10-fold better than it was before.

Am I pushing anyone?

I’m simply saying that the Christian faith is true. You are here saying that it is not. You are pushing as much as me.