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freeRadical
Guest
Well, it can. It is asked all the time. Who created God? Btw, Skadi can say the same thing to justify his beliefs.
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Skadi
Guest
Void, lack of existence, does not need to be created. But I don’t REALY see where your going the Is All is a timeless all powerfull force.
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Medawlinno
Guest
I’ll try and answer this best I can…… looks like it will be two posts due to length.
Reasoning faith in multiple gods -
The best way I can explain it is to use an analogy – let’s say Christian view / Pagan view.
In the Christian view, there is one deity known by different names - God, Yahweh, Creator, etc. I prefer something like “The All”. This deity manifests in three (and only three) aspects; a Father aspect, a Son aspect and a Spirit aspect. All three of these aspects may function independently or in conjunction with one another, but they are all simply aspects of The All. The All exists in them and they are part of The All.
So, in the Christian view, The All consists of only these three aspects which Christians refer to as the Trinity; i.e. one God, three “Persons” (or rather ‘aspects’).
In the Pagan view (or at least in my view), The All has two main aspects; male and female – God and Goddess. Like the Christian view, these two aspects may function independently of one another or in conjunction with one another, but they are both simply aspects of The All; The All exists in them, and they are part of The All.
Furthermore, the God himself has two aspects; Light and Dark. It is important to understand that ‘Dark’ in this context in no way equates to “evil”. The Goddess herself has three aspects (thus she is known as a Triple Goddess); Maid, Mother, and Crone. Each of these further aspects of the God and Goddess are significant and symbolic in their own ways.
So far, so good? Each of the above aspects of the God (two for him) and Goddess (three for her) may in turn manifest in the many deities found in various pantheons depending on one’s belief. I happen to follow more of a Celtic path, thus the deities will have Celtic names. The Goddess Brigit/Brid/Bridget, for example, is one of the many Maiden aspects of the Goddess. Brigit herself also happens to be a Triple Goddess.
These various aspects (or deities) may have certain attributes – one may, for example, invoke a deity (such as Brigit for example) for assistance/help/guidance with a particular situation. This is very similar to Christian Saints; there are “patron Saints” for just about every situation. One may pray to a Saint and ask for assistance/intercession/guidance in much the same way as a Pagan might invoke a particular God or Goddess for the same reason.
The difference being of course, that Saints are not aspects of either the Father, Son or Spirit (ultimately, The All) whereas the various deities in a given Pagan pantheon are aspects of either the God or Goddess (who in turn are ultimately aspects of The All).
That’s really the best way I can explain it – on the “technical” side of it, there’s really not much of a difference between the two views; just more aspects/manifestations of “The All” in the Pagan world. Christianity has a Trinity, Paganism (usually) has a pantheon.
Also too, as another poster stated, many Pagans will follow a certain deity or have a personal kinship with a particular deity or deities. To me this is very similar to a person having a favorite Saint or Saints.
In short, I don’t see much of a huge difference between the two views.
I suppose it could also beg the question of whether or not many Pagans are ultimately monotheists since in many Pagan views, the Gods and Goddesses are simply various manifestations of The All, but that’s a whole other discussion.
to be continued…
Reasoning faith in multiple gods -
The best way I can explain it is to use an analogy – let’s say Christian view / Pagan view.
In the Christian view, there is one deity known by different names - God, Yahweh, Creator, etc. I prefer something like “The All”. This deity manifests in three (and only three) aspects; a Father aspect, a Son aspect and a Spirit aspect. All three of these aspects may function independently or in conjunction with one another, but they are all simply aspects of The All. The All exists in them and they are part of The All.
So, in the Christian view, The All consists of only these three aspects which Christians refer to as the Trinity; i.e. one God, three “Persons” (or rather ‘aspects’).
In the Pagan view (or at least in my view), The All has two main aspects; male and female – God and Goddess. Like the Christian view, these two aspects may function independently of one another or in conjunction with one another, but they are both simply aspects of The All; The All exists in them, and they are part of The All.
Furthermore, the God himself has two aspects; Light and Dark. It is important to understand that ‘Dark’ in this context in no way equates to “evil”. The Goddess herself has three aspects (thus she is known as a Triple Goddess); Maid, Mother, and Crone. Each of these further aspects of the God and Goddess are significant and symbolic in their own ways.
So far, so good? Each of the above aspects of the God (two for him) and Goddess (three for her) may in turn manifest in the many deities found in various pantheons depending on one’s belief. I happen to follow more of a Celtic path, thus the deities will have Celtic names. The Goddess Brigit/Brid/Bridget, for example, is one of the many Maiden aspects of the Goddess. Brigit herself also happens to be a Triple Goddess.
These various aspects (or deities) may have certain attributes – one may, for example, invoke a deity (such as Brigit for example) for assistance/help/guidance with a particular situation. This is very similar to Christian Saints; there are “patron Saints” for just about every situation. One may pray to a Saint and ask for assistance/intercession/guidance in much the same way as a Pagan might invoke a particular God or Goddess for the same reason.
The difference being of course, that Saints are not aspects of either the Father, Son or Spirit (ultimately, The All) whereas the various deities in a given Pagan pantheon are aspects of either the God or Goddess (who in turn are ultimately aspects of The All).
That’s really the best way I can explain it – on the “technical” side of it, there’s really not much of a difference between the two views; just more aspects/manifestations of “The All” in the Pagan world. Christianity has a Trinity, Paganism (usually) has a pantheon.
Also too, as another poster stated, many Pagans will follow a certain deity or have a personal kinship with a particular deity or deities. To me this is very similar to a person having a favorite Saint or Saints.
In short, I don’t see much of a huge difference between the two views.
I suppose it could also beg the question of whether or not many Pagans are ultimately monotheists since in many Pagan views, the Gods and Goddesses are simply various manifestations of The All, but that’s a whole other discussion.
to be continued…
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Medawlinno
Guest
Continued…
As to why……
As to what drew me to this path, I can not say with any degree of certainty. I do know that I have been drawn to it ever since I was a little kid which might be a bit odd to some, but I never gave it a second thought – certainly not because it was around the house in any way (I was baptized Catholic and grew up in a fairly conservative Catholic environment – went to parochial school, the whole nine yards), but I was always very strongly drawn, in a way I can’t really explain, to the cycles of the seasons and the year and the cycle of life in general (life death and rebirth). What I know now to be the Quarter and Cross-Quarter days of the year were always very special to me as a kid, but I really didn’t know why; I just knew they were special days in some way. I don’t know why I knew that, I just did.
It’s definitely not something I just picked up in high school or college, etc. It’s always been with me, or a part of me, if that makes any sense. Now that I’m writing this, I realize that it’s really difficult to put on paper and try and explain it! I think mainly because I feel it’s always been a part of me and it’s just not something I’ve ever questioned.
This is a spiritual path that one does not seem to choose; rather, it chooses you. That said, it’s entirely your choice whether or not to follow it. I really believe it’s something you must be drawn to – one of the reasons you’ll never see Wiccans, Druids, Asatru, etc. proselytizing; I strongly believe it’s a path you must come to on your own. Considering I was drawn to it at such an early age has occasionally made me wonder why or even at times how, but it’s not something I’ve ever really delved that deeply into; like I said, I’ve never really questioned it in any great detail, it just seemed/seems “natural” to me. I have always felt more at ease on this path, perhaps because as I mentioned earlier, in some odd way, it’s always been a part of me, despite my Catholic upbringing.
I consider myself Celtic Wiccan, but I do not necessarily hold to all the tenets of “modern” Wicca per se, as I incorporate into it some of my own beliefs, if you will (for lack of a better way of putting it), from when I was younger, long before I knew what Wicca actually really was. Many, indeed if not most, are exactly the same, some not so much. For example, the elements of nature, particularly wind and fire, are very strong in my personal path, but I couldn’t tell you exactly why; it’s just the way it’s always been.
So I guess in short, why am I on this path? The answer may not make much sense, but simply put, it’s a path I’ve always been on literally as far back as I can remember.
Not really sure if the above makes any sense – this is really the first time I’ve tried to explain it to someone else (great exercise!)
As to why……
As to what drew me to this path, I can not say with any degree of certainty. I do know that I have been drawn to it ever since I was a little kid which might be a bit odd to some, but I never gave it a second thought – certainly not because it was around the house in any way (I was baptized Catholic and grew up in a fairly conservative Catholic environment – went to parochial school, the whole nine yards), but I was always very strongly drawn, in a way I can’t really explain, to the cycles of the seasons and the year and the cycle of life in general (life death and rebirth). What I know now to be the Quarter and Cross-Quarter days of the year were always very special to me as a kid, but I really didn’t know why; I just knew they were special days in some way. I don’t know why I knew that, I just did.
It’s definitely not something I just picked up in high school or college, etc. It’s always been with me, or a part of me, if that makes any sense. Now that I’m writing this, I realize that it’s really difficult to put on paper and try and explain it! I think mainly because I feel it’s always been a part of me and it’s just not something I’ve ever questioned.
This is a spiritual path that one does not seem to choose; rather, it chooses you. That said, it’s entirely your choice whether or not to follow it. I really believe it’s something you must be drawn to – one of the reasons you’ll never see Wiccans, Druids, Asatru, etc. proselytizing; I strongly believe it’s a path you must come to on your own. Considering I was drawn to it at such an early age has occasionally made me wonder why or even at times how, but it’s not something I’ve ever really delved that deeply into; like I said, I’ve never really questioned it in any great detail, it just seemed/seems “natural” to me. I have always felt more at ease on this path, perhaps because as I mentioned earlier, in some odd way, it’s always been a part of me, despite my Catholic upbringing.
I consider myself Celtic Wiccan, but I do not necessarily hold to all the tenets of “modern” Wicca per se, as I incorporate into it some of my own beliefs, if you will (for lack of a better way of putting it), from when I was younger, long before I knew what Wicca actually really was. Many, indeed if not most, are exactly the same, some not so much. For example, the elements of nature, particularly wind and fire, are very strong in my personal path, but I couldn’t tell you exactly why; it’s just the way it’s always been.
So I guess in short, why am I on this path? The answer may not make much sense, but simply put, it’s a path I’ve always been on literally as far back as I can remember.
Not really sure if the above makes any sense – this is really the first time I’ve tried to explain it to someone else (great exercise!)
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Skadi
Guest
Yes to all. I believe Government is inherently imoral, as participation in it is not optional. Just see what happens when you dont pay your taxes. You can’t even move out into the woods and refuse use of government funded things like roads to get out of it. A government esentialy charges you for your freedom, and if you don’t pay men with guns will take you to a prison where you live amongst violent criminals.
Now you need to understand why government can’t in my belief morally collect taxes, there exists no contract between the government and the person, the “social contract” is absolut BS, I havnt signed anything. If persons signed a contract with a government pledging to abide its laws and pay its taxes in exchange for protection and possibly welfare programs then the government would have the right to collect taxes and imprison nonviolent offenders.
I believe in individual sovereignty, that we are all a nation of one ultimately, and that we are born absolutely free of legal obligation to anyone, in today’s world we are all tax cattle at the mercy of whichever armed group controls the territory we live in.
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steido01
Guest
Isn’t the All, then, inherently immoral? After all, it made you a participant in in this world without option.
I’m not a fan of compulsion either, but Christianity acknowledges that our temporal rulers -however benevolent or maleficent- are placed over us as part of His Plan (at times a difficult answer to accept, I understand). We Christians are called to essentially obey them unless doing so conflicts with the faith. (“Render unto Caesar…”) Does your form of paganism have any parallel here? If not, I don’t understand why you are comfortable placing your defiance in the face of the Government - why not take it all the way up to the One that created the whole thing?
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Skadi
Guest
Hail Medawlinno, and merry meet,
I would agree, as a soft polythiest, however every pagan has their view, there are many other Asatru/Germanic’s who are hard polythiests, probably more so than any other pagan group.
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Skadi
Guest
We are all part of the “is all” in my belief. But it is an impersonal entity, made up of all life, hating it would be like hating electricity or hating gravity, it would require hating life itself. It is not. You are part of it and it would require hating yourself. And unlike christians pagans don’t believe we are “made in the image of god”, the “Is All” didn’t consciously decide to put me here, I am but a spirit, a small part of it, melded with a physical body.
As for governments, government didn’t create you, or chose whee you were born or to whom. But it does exert force apon you.
Germanic culture developed its own form of democracy, the “thing” where every adult in the tribe or village revives a vote and chiefs are elected for the most part democraticly. Not my perfect system but a much better one than contemporarys thats for sure.
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Protector
Guest
Straight out of the script of the movie,
Protector.
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Skadi
Guest
Wow. Haha I had no idea, but honestly I would think that would be the best bet, by the time Customs comes aboard your already in port. But Iran wouldn’t do that, it would be mass suicide for every man woman and child there, we would whips them from the face of the map.
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steido01
Guest
It’s at this point, where an arbitrary line is drawn between ‘natural’ and ‘un-natural,’ that I’ve never been able to make sense of the anarcho-capitalist model. Just seems to self-refute it’s claims. Governments are natural. To pretend that their existence is any different from gravity or weather is simply ignoring the empirical fact that all creatures on this earth exist as part of a hierarchy - food chain, pack order, society, etc. Just because those in Government have found a more effective tool of rising to the top doesn’t mean that it can be labelled ‘unnatural’ – humans are creatures too, aren’t we?
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Timi_Celcer
Guest
We cannot ask who created God because God is outside of space and time and therefore wasn’t created but was always there. He created space and time when He created the universe.
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Timi_Celcer
Guest
Why doesn’t the void need to be created? It is something right?
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Protector
Guest
Probably not Timi Celcer, because it is inferred in Scripture that God spoke and then BANG. So something had to be Created FROM nothing. In any case a void could probably best be described as the absence of SOMETHING.
Also, the whole thing is held together by the WORD, so from a Non-Christian point of view the whole Universe could be looked upon as an illusion. Don’t think I wanna go down that path!
Protector.
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freeRadical
Guest
I was just pointing out that people of other beliefs can use the same reasoning to justify their beliefs.
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Skadi
Guest
As creatures who have developed high levels of abstract thinking and are able to understand the concept of morality we have an obligation to be moral and “though shalt not initiate the use of force” is a concept found in esentialy every human culture, even if not alwase adhered to.
The problem I have is not with government but with involentary government. Just because I was born in the United States does not give our government the right to take my property via the threat of violence (I.e. taxes).
If involuntary governments should be accepted as natural and some of their crimes tolerated that opens to door for the toleration of other things. Where do you draw the line on what a government has a natural right to do? If the line is it can only do something if its for the greater good of the people (I.e. stealing via taxes to fund welfare) then your taking an "end justifies the means mentality which I would imagine christians are against.
I believe there is a letter in the bible that says “let us do evil, that good may come of it?”
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Skadi
Guest
Void is not something, it is the absence of anything.
Just as darkness is the absence of light, void is the absence of matter. Void and darknes are not measurable things, they are a state of absolute lack of their opposites in a given area. In fact scientifically speeking void and darkness are the only two things we know for certain “existed” before the Big Bang.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Interesting discussion.
Question, Skadi…
Do you have a personal God/Goddess you prefer? I know and know of, a lot of pagans, reconstructionists or not, who have “favorite deities.”
And are children in the Asatru religion allowed to be named after a particular deity or is that considered to be disrespectful? I know a kid that is named Odin----he is not being raised Asatru, though. Is it Ok to do that in the Asatru religion?
Just asking.
Like I said, fascinating discussion. Thanks in advance.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
What is the commitment of will towards God in love which becomes exhibited in the same with humans. To me there seems to be a disconnect in the individual and collective unity of continuity with God. This then becomes prevalent in relationships with others since our perception of these commitments is rooted in what?
Then the commitment to will in love with God, permeates outward to our relationships with Gods creation. In this sense the Kingdom of Heaven is in a very real way here and in heaven interconnected. thus the communion of Saints, the mass of the Church, Bible etc.
This removed then becomes our commitment of will by human understanding of love and in which each individual defined what this will in love is. Be it self serving, hedonistic and so forth. Sounds more like, Eat Drink and be Merry for tomorrow we die.
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Medawlinno
Guest
@ OrdinaryMelkite -
I can not speak for Asatru, but in the Wiccan tradition it is not uncommon to take on a “magickal” name - a name one would use in ritual. It does not need to be a particular god or goddess, but many people will incorporate the name of their favorite deity in their ritual name. I do not adhere to this practice myself.
I don’t know that it’s common to name one’s child after a aprticular deity in Wicca, but many common everyday names are actually names of pagan gods and goddesses - Dianne, Rhiannon, Brigit, Astrid, Dennis, Denise, Dylan, Irene, the list goes on…
I can not speak for Asatru, but in the Wiccan tradition it is not uncommon to take on a “magickal” name - a name one would use in ritual. It does not need to be a particular god or goddess, but many people will incorporate the name of their favorite deity in their ritual name. I do not adhere to this practice myself.
I don’t know that it’s common to name one’s child after a aprticular deity in Wicca, but many common everyday names are actually names of pagan gods and goddesses - Dianne, Rhiannon, Brigit, Astrid, Dennis, Denise, Dylan, Irene, the list goes on…
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