Paid/Unpaid Cantors

[JPUSC]

I have a dilemma at my current parish.

I am a professional, classically-trained singer and have been a paid cantor at other parishes.

I was asked to be a co-cantor earlier this year, which I assume is unpaid as nothing was discussed, which transitioned into a solo cantoring, but the music director never once mentioned a stipend regarding my service although cantors as well as choir section leaders there are paid. They did give me a check once for a special Mass

What are your opinions? Is it fair for some to be paid and others not to be? Should I have a right to feel upset? Musicians (pianists, guitarists) are paid as well. It is hard to tell as it is a church which is different from other jobs. I don’t know if they expect me to be a volunteer, but why are others who are doing the same exact thing I’m doing receiving a stipend?

I can’t say that the other cantors’ skills exceed mine. The excuse the administration is making is that the two other paid cantors are also choir section leaders, but from what I understand those fees are separate. If not, is it that a fair arrangement? They are also saying that my arrangement with the music director was that of an unpaid cantor even though the subject of payment never came up. I don’t think non-mention of fees constitutes an arrangement.

To be honest, I don’t even care about the stipend, but it just makes me feel singled out and makes my services seem less valuable than theirs.

 

[Joannm]

Are you a member of the parish? In one parish I worked for if a parishioner was the cantor he or she was not paid since it was considered part of their stewardship to the parish, but that was well known before a person took on the job. I think payment or non payment should have been discussed at the time you were asked but it is probably never too late to bring it up.

 

[JPUSC]

I am, but so are the other 2 (there’s basically only 3 of us). In fact, the other 2 are/were members of the pastoral council.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I think that this is a situation that you have to be honest with yourself. Clearly you feel that you should be paid and so all the looking over your shoulder to see who else is doing what is rather immaterial. Certainly you have demonstrated that your services are up to snuff, so you should do what you need to do to have your needs met. Possibly your need might be the chance to sing regularly. If that outweighs your desire for payment then act accordingly.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Time for you to speak to whoever is in charge of cantors/music again. If you aren’t willing to do the job under the agreement you have now (unpaid), than you need to tell them that. Either they’ll find the money to pay you, or they’ll thank you for your time and find someone else.

I have no idea what the arragement is currently at my parish. We did have paid cantors at one point, but I believe we’ve gone back to all volunteers. Certainly when my daughter cantors she’s not paid. She’s not a professional musician, but she’s as prepared and accomplished as any of the other cantors. She’s also perfectly happy to cantor as a volunteer.

 

[Cat]

I play piano at Mass in several parishes. I’m paid at those parishes that are not mine. I don’t take payment at my parish. I have a good day job, and so I’m not making a living with music. I probably should accept the payment, because this probably makes it tough for other musicians.

I know of no parish in our city of 150,000 that pays cantors. Wow. That would be amazing.

But I realize that in the large metro areas, the cantors and other musicians are paid.

You need to ask. Don’t be shy, especially if music is the way you make a living.

 

[Ophelia23]

I am strongly against the payment of cantors. In my opinion, it should be a volunteer position offered as a ministry. But in terms of your circumstance, either all or none should be paid. Not just some.

 

[JPUSC]

Time for you to speak to whoever is in charge of cantors/music again. If you aren’t willing to do the job under the agreement you have now (unpaid), than you need to tell them that. Either they’ll find the money to pay you, or they’ll thank you for your time and find someone else.

I have no idea what the arragement is currently at my parish. We did have paid cantors at one point, but I believe we’ve gone back to all volunteers. Certainly when my daughter cantors she’s not paid. She’s not a professional musician, but she’s as prepared and accomplished as any of the other cantors. She’s also perfectly happy to cantor as a volunteer.

It’s not a matter of being happy to volunteer or not, but the church has also hired a new liturgist who is very demanding and required me to attend 3 full rehearsals (3 different days) in one week at one point. The musicians don’t complain because I found out their rehearsals are paid too. AND the liturgist is asking me to take a 3 month $400 cantor workshop nobody else in the parish has taken 27 miles away from the church. In a nutshell, they want to teach me how to sing “Gather Us In” properly and how to wave my hands around like a cheerleader…

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It’s not a matter of being happy to volunteer or not, but the church has also hired a new liturgist who is very demanding and required me to attend 3 full rehearsals (3 different days) in one week at one point. The musicians don’t complain because I found out their rehearsals are paid too. AND the liturgist is asking me to take a 3 month $400 cantor workshop nobody else in the parish has taken 27 miles away from the church. They want to teach me how to sing “Gather Us In” properly and how to wave my hands around like a flight attendant…

So your issue is with the new liturgist not whether you are paid. Again the answer is to say, “Sorry, I cannot make that commitment to training. It is expensive, too long and too far away to be asked of someone in a volunteer role.” Then see what happens.

If necessary, schedule a meeting with the liturgist and your pastor. Tell them what you are willing to commit to as a volunteer and what would change if you were paid a stipend (of $x) to recoop some of the expenses they are asking (including the value of your time). If they can’t or won’t offer you the same payments they are giving the other musicians, then you decide if you are still willing.

It may very well be that they have no idea that this is upsetting you, or that you even realize that the others are paid. Don’t stew over this. Ask to be paid and given the same consideration as the others. No one can read your mind. Let them know what you are willing to do as a volunteer and where you draw the line.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Where I live, paid musicians and cantors are unheard of. We simply can’t afford them. Back when all we needed was an organist and a choir director, payment was possible, but now that every bongo player and kazooist wants to be paid, it simply can’t be done anymore.

 

[johnnykins]

Of course you should be paid. You are a professional. However, IF you want to volunteer your time and talents, that is up to you. If you don’t want to volunteer - don’t. If the Parish pays some and not another, you simply have to decide what to do.

If you are pressured into volunteering and don’t want to volunteer - make like Nancy Reagan and just say “no.”

People that expect others to volunteer in the name of ministry - have no business telling you or anyone else they need to volunteer. If the Parish doesn’t want to pay for services, act accordingly. Whether you volunteer or not is your decision.

 

[m134e5]

I am strongly against the payment of cantors. In my opinion, it should be a volunteer position offered as a ministry. But in terms of your circumstance, either all or none should be paid. Not just some.

Musicians’ work is so often seen simply as “just a nice thing to do.” We are expected to share our talent for free, even though our education cost no less than many others’ education. When you treat liturgical music as “just a nice thing to do,” then you end up with people being awarded authority and professional respect they have not earned and that those who have the professional know-how will refuse to give. I am a professionally-trained singer and have sung in choirs whose conductor was not qualified. Some of them didn’t even have a degree, let alone one in music. It didn’t work out too well.

 

[BettyBoop416]

In a nutshell, they want to teach me how to sing “Gather Us In” properly and how to wave my hands around like a cheerleader…

Not to make light of your situation, but that totally cracked me up.

 

[Phemie]

Not to make light of your situation, but that totally cracked me up.

Made me chuckle too.

Of all the things that can annoy me at Mass or any other Liturgy, the cantor’s gesticulating tops my list. I’m not stupid, I know when to respond.

 

[Cat]

Musicians’ work is so often seen simply as “just a nice thing to do.” We are expected to share our talent for free, even though our education cost no less than many others’ education. When you treat liturgical music as “just a nice thing to do,” then you end up with people being awarded authority and professional respect they have not earned and that those who have the professional know-how will refuse to give. I am a professionally-trained singer and have sung in choirs whose conductor was not qualified. Some of them didn’t even have a degree, let alone one in music. It didn’t work out too well.

Professional musicians have a very strong union, and the union is not keen on the idea of performing for free. Certainly musicians can donate their service for a good cause, and a lot of musicians do this for personal fulfillment and also for publicity.

But for the most part, a musician who performs for free makes it difficult for all musicians to earn a living with their craft. Hence, the union.

The Catholic Church has historically supported unions, so I’m a little surprised to see Catholics throw musicians under a train. Are they not workers, too? If you are musician, you KNOW the answer to that question. :yup:

There are a lot of musicians like me who are not in the union, and we often volunteer our services. I consider myself a really good pianist, but I am in no way as good as the “professionals” who earned degrees or who earn a living performing.

If a parish wants the best musicians, they will pay. If they are willing to take musicians like me, they’ll save money. I personally think that each parish needs to determine whether they are in a situation where they should hire the best, or be happy with volunteers. A small country parish doesn’t need professional musicians from week to week, so maybe once in a while hire someone to provide a very special experience at Mass.

But a large parish in a big city with lots of competition from Protestant megachurches probably should think about hiring professionals and paying them union rates. I realize that Jesus is Truly Present in Catholic churches, and He should be our focus at Mass. But honestly now, you KNOW that many Catholics don’t get this, and they go to church or stay away from church because of the music. The Protestant megachurches know this and they hire the best.

Finally, I think that any parish ought to give Jesus the very BEST Mass music that they can afford.

 

[1ke]

This is not an issue of “fairness” or “unfairness”.

You just need to be honest about your expectations and talk to the pastor. Don’t beat around the bush. Just communicate directly and factually.

I don’t think you have a “right” to be upset when it seems you are going on a lot of assumptions and unexpressed needs and expectations.

You assumed co-cantor was unpaid. You agreed to be co-cantor under this assumption. The music director never mentioned a stipend, but neither did you.

Don’t beat around the bush, grouse, and complain. Just TELL those you work with what you expect. If they cannot meet your expectations, simply decline to cantor and move on.

 

[cspb56]

Here in the archdiocese of Chicago most parishes don’t pay the cantors (a few do). However, if your parish is already paying the other cantors you should also receive the same stipend. There are different reason for paying/not paying cantors and it really depends on the parishes circumstances.

 

[JPUSC]

This is not an issue of “fairness” or “unfairness”.

You just need to be honest about your expectations and talk to the pastor. Don’t beat around the bush. Just communicate directly and factually.

I don’t think you have a “right” to be upset when it seems you are going on a lot of assumptions and unexpressed needs and expectations.

You assumed co-cantor was unpaid. You agreed to be co-cantor under this assumption. The music director never mentioned a stipend, but neither did you.

Don’t beat around the bush, grouse, and complain. Just TELL those you work with what you expect. If they cannot meet your expectations, simply decline to cantor and move on.

Yes, you are right that I should’ve spoken up then. I went from being a co-cantor to a cantor and that’s where there was a gray area, but yes, being direct is the way to go.

Anyway, I brought up the issue before I started this thread and now they are offering to pay me for this Sunday’s Mass, but would still like to discuss the requirements of a paid cantor for future pay.

I have actually been offered a paid position at different parish so I will have to consider what requirements they are referring to and if I am going to stay.

 

[JPUSC]

So your issue is with the new liturgist not whether you are paid. Again the answer is to say, “Sorry, I cannot make that commitment to training. It is expensive, too long and too far away to be asked of someone in a volunteer role.” Then see what happens.

If necessary, schedule a meeting with the liturgist and your pastor. Tell them what you are willing to commit to as a volunteer and what would change if you were paid a stipend (of $x) to recoop some of the expenses they are asking (including the value of your time). If they can’t or won’t offer you the same payments they are giving the other musicians, then you decide if you are still willing.

It may very well be that they have no idea that this is upsetting you, or that you even realize that the others are paid. Don’t stew over this. Ask to be paid and given the same consideration as the others. No one can read your mind. Let them know what you are willing to do as a volunteer and where you draw the line.

Yes, exactly. This is certainly not worth stewing over.

 

[JPUSC]

Professional musicians have a very strong union, and the union is not keen on the idea of performing for free. Certainly musicians can donate their service for a good cause, and a lot of musicians do this for personal fulfillment and also for publicity.

But for the most part, a musician who performs for free makes it difficult for all musicians to earn a living with their craft. Hence, the union.

The Catholic Church has historically supported unions, so I’m a little surprised to see Catholics throw musicians under a train. Are they not workers, too? If you are musician, you KNOW the answer to that question. :yup:

There are a lot of musicians like me who are not in the union, and we often volunteer our services. I consider myself a really good pianist, but I am in no way as good as the “professionals” who earned degrees or who earn a living performing.

If a parish wants the best musicians, they will pay. If they are willing to take musicians like me, they’ll save money. I personally think that each parish needs to determine whether they are in a situation where they should hire the best, or be happy with volunteers. A small country parish doesn’t need professional musicians from week to week, so maybe once in a while hire someone to provide a very special experience at Mass.

But a large parish in a big city with lots of competition from Protestant megachurches probably should think about hiring professionals and paying them union rates. I realize that Jesus is Truly Present in Catholic churches, and He should be our focus at Mass. But honestly now, you KNOW that many Catholics don’t get this, and they go to church or stay away from church because of the music. The Protestant megachurches know this and they hire the best.

Finally, I think that any parish ought to give Jesus the very BEST Mass music that they can afford.

Yes, exactly! Funny thing is, my secular fee for my services is 10x as much as the stipend as I am an accomplished musician, but since they think I’m a kid, they told me their assumption was that I was a cantor-in-training. Well, I guess I should be flattered they think I’m younger than I am.